..had a very enjoyable first foray in Poland driven boar shooting, and am mulling over a double rifle for the task. On one of the days I borrowed one of these, and was lucky enough to connect with a piggie as well as a red and some roe. The pig went down well enough, but I was fortunate in having hit it in the neck. It was amazingly light on the shoulder, and gave one an immediate second barrel. My question is if the more experienced boar shooters here consider it a decent choice, or if it might be a bit marginal if the shot isn't quite so central...

quote:

Originally posted by Shikar:
....a decent choice, or if it might be a bit marginal if the shot isn't quite so central...

One does not exclude the other.

There is a distinct lack of medium cartridges in rimmed cartridges - at least if you are looking for general availability, price of ammo and selection in factory ammo and components. The 7x65R is a good one, in fact it is almost the standard in Central Europe, and an awful lot of pigs are shot each year with this cartridge and its rimless sister, the 7x64. They work, and represent a good compromise between roe and heavier game hunting. I guess that qualifies the 7x65R as a "decent" choice.

People who have a lot of experience in tracking wounded pigs absolutely swear by bullet diameter, though. They are not particularly enamoured with the 7x65R - or other 7mm cartridges, for that matter. A .30 cal is considered minimum from their point of view, and things look up a whole lot if the piggie was shot with either an 8mm or a 9.3. From this point of view, the 7x65R can be seen as somewhat "marginal".

Now we come back to mid-caliber choices in rimmed cartridges. In .30, you are really limited to the .30 R Blaser - which gives you ballistics somewhere between a .30-06 and a .300 Win Mag. Not a lot of choice in ammo or brass, though... An 8x57IRS is an excellent choice if you are looking for a rifle for driven hunts, but with some drawbacks as far as range is concerned. It sports easy availability of both ammo and components, and it is amazingly versatile considering its comparatively small case and largish bore. If you want more power, the 8x75RS is available, but not commonly so, and then you land with the 9.3x74R - which will certainly get the job done at driven hunt distances, but (like most 9.3s) is not the most versatile caliber.

So, sensibly, there are really only the following choices: 7x65R, .30 R Blaser, 8x57IRS and 9.3x74R. Depending on what ammo and components are available to you, and depending on how you perceive your future options for hunting (type and size of game, distances to be shot), you'll have to settle on the right compromise for you...

I'm a sucker for versatility and availability of ammo and components, so for me the choices would be between the 7x65R (if you think you'll shoot primarily lighter game), or the 8x57IRS (if you are willing to sacrifice a bit of versatility in terms of range for more performance on pigs)...

Pity the 8x65RS is such an oddball caliber these days. It has always struck me as the perfect compromise with respect to range and heavy game performance.

- mike

Shikar,

I agree with all of what Mike said in regards to the double rifle choices most commonly available for European Drive Hunting.

My cartridge preferences for a European Double Rifle would be the 9.3x74R first, followed by 8x57ISR, 30R Blaser and finally the 7x65R.

I use the ballistic twin, the 7x64, mainly on Roe but, with proper bullets, don't hesitate to use it on heavy game (shot 5 Red stags and a Fallow deer with it) - when stalking, of course. For drive hunting, where ideal bullet placement is not evident on runnning game, it gets marginal indeed. Here, a 9,3x74R (or 9,3x62) makes a world of difference.

Sounds like you are getting alot of sound advice here. I also have had some good results shooting boar with my 7x64 but I've shot many with my 8x57 double and a barrowed 9.3x74 double and I would say that I prefer the larger calibers for boar. I have a ferlach double in.338 win. I would love to try it on boar someday.

Chaps, many thanks fopr your help. As I suspected, I think that I'm getting the feeling that the 7 X 65 is indeed a wee bit light for what would really be principally a pig shooting rifle. Versatility doesnt worry me too much, as this would be a 'dedicated' rifle, so as I suspected, I think a 9.3 X 74 would have to be a better choice.

Many thanks for the help!

Shikar, I just got back last month from the Cz Rep from my first boar shooting trip.

The 7x65r was easily the most common rifle round I saw there used by the locals. Must have outnumbered all other rounds by 2 to 1 combined. Most of them carried a Brno made over & under with a 12 bore barrel on top and said rifle barrel below. This may have been a matter of necessity rather than choice. I am guessing this was the gun most readily available at an affordable price in eastern Europe. I would be inclined to wonder at the quality of the Sellier & Belliot ammo these guys were using. Some of it looked 30 years old.

I think if I was to have a dedicated pig gun (we live in hope) it would be chambered in a 9.3 x something.

I did a boar drive in Normandy a few years ago and of the 18 hunters 17 had a double rifles most of them 9.3x74.

AK,

.....338 Win Mag! Now that's my idea of a solid double rifle cartridge for thumping piggies!

After all, it's got a rim of sorts!

Gerry
For many reasons the 338 Win Mag is not a good choice for a double rifle.
Instead get a 9,3x74R. You will not be dissapointed.

N E 450 No2,

I agree with you 100% from a technical standpoint - just relating my pleasure at the oompf involved!

I'm a Dyed-in-the-Wool 9.3x74R fan!

I have a 9.3x62 that I had built for moose and boar hunting. It has performed well on moose but I haven't shot a boar or been on a boar hunt.

There is no doubt that the 9.3 is an effective bore size BUT it does come with a price - recoil and low muzzle velocity. Ordinarily muzzle velocity is not an issue with big bullets - they still work on game at 2,300fps MV. The issue is with maintained lead - the slower the muzzle velocity the more the maintained lead.

As an example, for moose with a 286gr at 2,300fps my maintained lead is front of shoulder at 40yards and about the wattle at 80yards. This means that a failure to compute range when a trophy bull trots past at 80yards could quite easily result in a gut shot or vice versa a miss.

Something like a 30-06 with 180gr is still on the hair at 80yards and the difference between the 2 ranges seems reduced. So there might be some advantages to the 7x65R and 30-06 cartridges when it comes to getting onto a smaller pig at mach 3 with little time to think about range.

Very sensible input - experience counts.

I know there are a lot of people here who shoot big bores better than I do, but the recoil should not be neglected in the equation either. The more recoil you have to endure, the slower you'll be ready for that "immediate" second shot the double rifle offers.

1894's input about difference in lead is something to be taken seriously as well. At least the issue must be addressed in training. Fortunately, if you have settled on a 9.3, you have also pretty much settled on shooting only at "forest distances". 80m would be a long shot under those conditions on a pig hunt - whereas it sems entirely possible on a Swedish moose hunt (shooting across clearcuts etc).

As much as I agree with our learned members about the advantages of the 9.3s, there are also disadvantages. Issues to taken into consideration.

- mike

N E 450 NO2

Why do you say there are many reasons that a .338 is not a good cal. for a double. I know some of the conventional wisdom would say that a rimless case would be less desireable but other than that I think it's a great cartrage for a double. In todays world break open guns are commonly chambered for rimless cases and the gunmakers are doing a great job of making extractors that funtion with these cases.

To take the pressure of a modern magnum the double would have to be built fairly heavy. Even then there are some who still think they will shoot off face fairly soon.
As an example compare most 9,3x74R doubles to 357 H&H doubles and usually the 375 is on a larger frame and quite a bit heavier.
My Chapuis 9,3 is slim and light.

I would consider the 9,3x74R the equal in "killing power" to the 338 out to say 250 yards. I have taken game a little past 300 with my 9,3 but that is a stretch.
I think the 9,3x74R is one of those perfect combinations of cartridge performance ["killing power", pressure, cartridge size, rifle size, and recoil], for its intended game.

After I had my 9,3 double a short time I thought another in 7x65 would make a good pair.
I think the 7x65 is a great cartridge as well. However after using my 9,3 for quite a while I just have not seen the need. I do not know a situation where I would prefer a 7x65 to my 9,3x74R.
So far I find the 9,3 to be the perfect calibre for a double rifle under 40 cal.

N E 450 no2

absolutly right the 9.3 doubles are typicly built lighter and I two think that is an advantage. My .338 is built on a fairly large frame my freind Alois Myar who is a gunmaker in Mittenwald Germany measured the reciver and told me it was big enough for a set of .470 barrels wich i think I'm going to have him make for me.

I don't agree about the high pressure being a problem. I've dicussed this with Alois as well as Butch Sercey and the problem with wear on a double rifle is backthrust of the case and a heavey bullet in the barrel pushing the barrel away from the frame. This is the thing that wears out the hinge pin and makes the gun loose.
If you referance P.O. Ackley in his experements he found that back thrust was elemenated as pressure was increesed. With this in mind it could well be said that the higher pressure of the .338 may prevent wear although I belive the the pressure of the 9.3 is high enough on it's own to prevent backtrust.

don't get me wrong I also think that the 9.3x74 is a wonderful round and I've had great results with them from eland wildebeast etc in Africa to 7 consecutive one shot kills on boar.

Personally I could feel somewhat undergunned with a 7x65R on a driven hunt of boars. Of course it's a good cartridge, plenty enough for average animals. But what could happen if you have the chance to shoot the "boar of your life", the big monster of 150+ Kgs? So, ok for the double rifle (I use a 300WM BAR ), but IMO 8x57R or 9.3x74R are a better choice, since I'm not fond of marginal cartridges like 30R Blaser and 8x65R.

Every year, thousands of boars, red stags and roes are killed with the 7x65R in Germany, Austria and other european countries. What could be wrong with this caliber for boars? EVERY YEAR I see hundreds of pigs killed on drive-hunts, and a good part of them are killed by the 7x65R without any problem. It the same like the discussions here with elk-hunting in America: for a part of the hunters, the adequate elk-caliber starts with the .338Mag, others have great succes with the 270Wini! I´m something like a PH for red stags and boars and I do a lot of tracking wounded boars with my dogs. I never saw a real difference with calibers like 7x64(65R), 8x57 and .30/06, perhaps there is a little advantage for the 9,3x74R in driving-hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
Every year, thousands of boars, red stags and roes are killed with the 7x65R in Germany, Austria and other european countries. What could be wrong with this caliber for boars? EVERY YEAR I see hundreds of pigs killed on drive-hunts, and a good part of them are killed by the 7x65R without any problem. It the same like the discussions here with elk-hunting in America: for a part of the hunters, the adequate elk-caliber starts with the .338Mag, others have great succes with the 270Wini! I´m something like a PH for red stags and boars and I do a lot of tracking wounded boars with my dogs. I never saw a real difference with calibers like 7x64(65R), 8x57 and .30/06, perhaps there is a little advantage for the 9,3x74R in driving-hunts.

M.F.

You must keep in mind the love of using larger calibres than necessary when discussing such matters here on AR.

I'm suprised no one has yet claimed that a 470NE is absolute minimum when it comes to hunting the ferocious roedeer!

Just out of curiousity, is a boar much tougher than a scandinavian moose? I've never hunted boar, and thus have no experiance with them.

Hundreds of thousands of moose have been shot in scandinavia thruout the years with the good old 6.5x55.

Granted, I personally prefer something bigger (and have used 30-06, 300wby, and 375H&H). But I have to admit that the 6.5x55 has worked, and is still in use with lots of moose hunters up here.

As the 7x65R packs a bigger punch than the 6.5x55, I'd think it would be adequate for boars? Unless boars are very much tougher than moose?

Boars are hard to get down, but don`t forget, that the average boar killed on a drive-hunt has a weight from perhaps 40kg!

Monastery-Forester, ErikD, here hunting land is uneven, often steep, covered with dense bush. Frequently we don't have much time to correctly aim boars (roe deers, chamois, mouflons) that are, of course, much smaller than moose (ErikD) and I bet they are speedier than moose. Sometimes boars pass very close to the hunter (10/15 m.), and he can only hear them and see the bush moving. Many wounded animals are lost, that is why we prefer large calibers (ErikD, the bigger caliber I have ever seen at hunt is 8x68 ) that are more forgiving in case of mediocre/poor bullet placement. You know, it's like cars; a city car and a big Mercedes are not very different each other; both can carry 4/5 persons for a long highway travel, but the Mercedes is MUCH more confortable.

P.S. Here almost nobody use 270W for driven hunt of boars, since it's commonly considered inadequate; "minimum" caliber is 7x64/280 Rem. (very few 7x65R since double rifles are seldom used); most used cartridges are: 308W, 30-06, 7RM, 300WM, a few 8x68, 8x57R, 9,3x62 and 9,3x74R

I have enjoyed using a 7x64 on game such as wild Boar and red deer and would only consider the 9.3x74 if hunting Africa was a possibility in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:
Sometimes boars pass very close to the hunter (10/15 m.), and he can only hear them and see the bush moving.

Would a shot be taken in such circumstances?

I TALY!!!!

1894mk2, of course no! A reasoble hunter MUST NOT shoot in a similar condition! I said that to give an idea about our landscape.

Monastery-Forester, I don't understand exactly your sarcasm about my homeland, but you are definitely impolite (and even something worse...)

quote:

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quote:

Picture of ErikD

Posted 25 February 2006 06:12
Just out of curiousity, is a boar much tougher than a scandinavian moose?

One would hardly think so on a size basis.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

ErikD

Posted 25 February 2006 06:12
Just out of curiousity, is a boar much tougher than a scandinavian moose?

One would hardly think so on a size basis.

Gryphon1,

At first glance I would agree. But our moose are actually quite "soft" in my opinion. Which is why 6.5x55 was used successfully on them for decades here in Scandinavia. And thus, a big boar might be pretty much as "tough" (for all I know!) as moose, even if it is physically lighter.

Wildboar, I`m sorry, Ididn`t want to hurt your national feeling, but if you write such things, you must accept some answers. I like Italy, so I`ll spent some days in Fiorenze in March!

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
....but if you write such things, you must accept some answers....

Write such things? Which things? However, I accept dozens of answers (objections) as long as they are respectful and constructive, like 1894mk2 did.

Wildboar, I`ll explain it: if you wrote, that you hear only the boars, but culdn?t see them exactly and therefore you need a heavier caliber, so normally you first have to look what you hear, and after seeing it exactly, you can shoot, and than it is o.k. with a 7mm!

I did wonder about shooting at a noise - but decided Wildboar could not have meant what he wrote......could he!?!

I appreciate the effort of writing in English if it is not your native language - its certainly better than I could manage in Italian!!

Rgds Ian

Thanks IanF, I would add that following this forum has helped me a lot to improve my English and I try to do my best to write correctly; the result is only average....but there is still room for improvement

P.S. In my first post I forgot to mention that here 20/25% of hunters still use 12 ga. shotguns; only slugs are allowed.

...7X65R is just fine (the biggest boar shot in my area was 230 kg shot with that caliber and a soft S&B 11,2 g bullet)...imo wild pigs arent as tough as one would expect when hit right - if you shoot the pig anywhere in the chest cavity with 6,5 mm up, nothing can save it...I would rather bother about how to get the bullet to the target - since shots on driven hunts are mainly on running target - there you cant pay as many attention to the unvanted obsticles that may appear on the bullets path...so if you use a proper bullet that can pass minor obsticles you are ready to go...I use 9,3x62 mainly becouse I had to deal with wounded boars (they are hard tho), but for a regular hunter there is no need to head for the bushes after wounded beast so my choice in double would be 8x57IRS...just my 2 cents

Mousy, that are exactly my experiences! For tracking wounded boars, I use the R93-Nachsuche(tracker) in .308 Wini, no boar has told me, that´s not enough, so yesterday when I was tracking a leg shot boar(hit with the .375H&H), after following 5km and than the dog has to do a short 300m-run and he stopped the boar and the 180grs Lapua-Naturalis was all I needed.

Being from Texas I have really enjoyed reading your posts and hearing about how you all hunt. I have hunted in similar circumstances with a 223 in an AR-15. A double in 7mm would be far preferable! Sometimes we push/flush the piggies into the open fields and then the AR with a 30 round mag really shines!

Perry

Oh Perry, hunting in Europe is very different from your doing in Texas. It is not only a question of our long hunting-tradion, it is also a question of very strict hunting-laws and a question of our ethic!

Interesting. What are some of your traditions, laws and ethics?

Perry

In The North of Australia is Wild Boar heaven I hunted a property there(950sq/km in size),the guide swore by his 6.5x55 for the plains and for close in work in the dry creekbeds where the action is often fast and furious, when you wake and flush them from their sleep. Euro Boars are no tougher than Topend boars. I used a 30/06-180gn and a .338 for fun,but it(.338) was not really required. If you cannot very effectively drill a boar with a good quality 7mm/175gn pill at 2650, your doin something wrong.
On one occasion, we stopped to fill our water canteens from a billabong(pond)in adry creekbed, I also took the oportunity to relieve my bladder. As we were standing there .....A hefty boar emerged from the dry bank of the creek, and troted off in disgust but no urgency. I picked up my .338/230gnFS@2800 as he angled away from me(40yds?),but only wounded him,then he was off! (it was areal funny situation, I could not stop laughing , I think thats why I missed!)My point is that,I doubt very much a 0.028"bigger bore( 9.3) would have had a different result. A botched shot is just that,a botched shot. We cannot blame the failsafe either cause previous day, I nailed two boars at well over 300yds each(much less vel./expansion at that distance), bang, down each went first shot.

O.K., Perry, let me explain: we have in Germany, also in Austria and some of the eastern european countries, strong hunting-laws, so in my area of northern Germany, the hunt for under one year old boars is open for the whole year, the under two years old boars are free for hunting from the first of april to the end of january, the older pigs are free from the first of august to the end of january. Females with little boars, where her leadership is important, are always protected. If you kill such a female, you are punished because of a offence against animal-protection. One of my hunters, who has done it last year, was punished to pay 2000 Euros!
Than, in Germany guns like a AR15 are forbidden for hunting, semi-automatics are limited to a 2-shot magazine capacity and often hunters with such guns are not very respected persons, often you are invited for hunting in the great foresty-administrations, but not with a semi-automatic-gun. The drive-hunting for boars(and red stags) is commonly in automn and winter, one reason is that we sell the meat ot this game and you have the best market in the pre-chrismas time. Than the most important thing on such hunting is the fair management with the animals - we call it in our hunting-language "Waidgerechtigkeit" - so it is not important to kill as much as possible, the hunts are very selectiv. Often it is allowed only to shoot under one year old boars ("Frischlinge) and over 5-years old males (Keiler), that is quite difficult! One of our traditions is to use a special hunting-language(Waidmannssprache) for example blood is not "Blut", it is called "Schweiß", the leg is not the "Bein", it is the "Lauf"and so on. Some of this terminals are of very old origin.

I hope, I could give you a short impression of our hunting.