I've been thinking (never good) about dogs recently. I have always had dogs - love working with them.

I have had labs, a springer, and two pointers currently, a GSP - now 11 years old, and a German Long Haired pointer who is six.

I have never had a dog properly trained to track wounded deer. My GSP has been pressed into service a couple of times over the years to track wounded deer and has managed to find the beast.

Most of my stalking here is Sika, which tends to be in the evening, and round the edges of heavy cover. A few experiences recently have led me to think that this is a cock-up waiting to happen without a suitably trained dog.

Starting from scratch with a GSP pup would seem one way to go, I know GSP's quite well and like them. But I would rather have a small dog for this type of work, one that will easily travel with me in the car etc. I have been thinking about a Jack Russell or the like. Has anyone seen how much Teckel pups cost?

So what would you guys advise?

By the way, this dog needs to live in the house with my three kids, which could be an issue I know.

Brian,

for the tracking of a presumed dead animal, a tactel or dachshound same thing different name, is one of the better ones at it.

They have a natural love for deer and are more tenachious than we ever will be.



One good thing about these dogs is that they are great family dogs and are "smart" in that sence that they are small and one can actually have it along everywhere.

A second choice, is the Deutscher Jagdterrier,

they are a bit larger, are great tracking dogs and will despite there smallish stature, take and hold down deer for despatching.



by the way look at the webpage:

http://ohlsbergas.frida.googlepages.com/bildgalleri a very versatile dog.

This terrier will bay moose, boar, red deer, will also drive them and and roe, fallow and sitka,

will bay badgers, will clear foxes from there nests and so on.

These guys are slightly tougher to have with a family but most work out great.

A larger dog is the bavarian blodhound and it´s cousins,

great dogs and so good in families.



And last you might prefer a Wachtel:



They are also very good alround dogs and will work for food so to speak..

Decisions, decisions...

By the way I am trying to convince my girlfriend of our absolute need for a tactel, she thinks we need a new bullterrier instead.



Edit,

this one guy that frequents a swedish forum dug up this pic of two DJT:s working,



At times a pic though silent speaks volumes.

Best regards Chris

I found this on another board. I hope it helps.
Teckels

I am in the process of training my Lab pup to track and trail, and she is coming along pretty well. I shot a doe last weekend on an evening hunt, and by the time I got to the spot, I couldn't find blood. I immediately went home to get her, and she found the deer in less than two minutes in the dark. The doe didn't go very far, but needless to say, my little dog saved me from stumbling around in the dark struggling to find the blood trail.

I would just give your Langhaar a try. I bet he's still able to learn and has a good nose.

Just build up the training packages step by step with increasing difficulty.

As just to add to this or confuse the fact even more,

as I grew up we had one of these guys for hunting,



Deutsch Kurzhaar according to the manifest, he could track and drive any game,

loved water and had a great nose.

A bit head strong though but great in the family.

Best regards Chris

If you plan to track wounded game, the bavarian bloodhounds are the way to go. These dogs dont track because they are trained to it, they have a mental disorder that FORCES them to track game.

I have the dog with me at all hunts. He's absolutely silent when game approaches. I have shot a double on roe deer at 5 meters distance without him disturbing.

In fact, I shoot one or two deers extra every year due to having the dog with me, tracking sessions excluded. Just paying attention to the docg. One becomes quite a dangerous hunter with the man's eyes, man's weapons, dog ears and dog's nose.

I wouldn't recommend Jagdterriers (or any other terrier) or a Dachshund for exclusively stalking and tracking purposes. They are bred to be fearless, independent, and have a mind of their own, because they were originally meant to work under ground, alone, without the hunters guidance. It is their natural instinct to be extremely lively. Therefore it is very difficult to train them to sit quietly by your side hour after an hour. Also, a good tracking and stalking dog needs to have a really strong bond with a hunter, they shouldn't be too independent. Some smaller bird-dog or a specialized blood-hound would suit these purposes much better.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash the terriers or dachshunds, they are excellent dogs, although for a slightly different purpose. Our family has had jagdterriers and dachshunds for years. And I still think DJT is the best "bang-for-ounze" do-everything-dog you can get.

I can fully understand what you are saying Pric65,

however I and most others that I know off, have there dogs at home or in the car rather than with them,

HerrBerg whom I know first hand, I belive at least should memory serve, is an exception to the rule and besides that as far as I know and from a Swedish stand point, there are different strands in the tecktel lines, some will not go underground any more and some are really just very good at tracking and driving deer.

Besides from a size standpoint a Bavarian is a far to large of a dog in most parts of england, the hedges is say, the hedges...

Best regards Chris

Brian,

A good friend of mine is in charge of the wildlife mgt for collte (sp?) at Waterford, and as you know has a lot of evening sika to deal with. He tried the Teckels (had a few) but after an incident with livestock has gone back to labradors. Great family dog and so long as you get a "thrusting" strain are excellant deer dogs.

Good luck with your quest!

I have labs and German Wirehaired - love the wirehaired!

quote:

Originally posted by Pric65:
And I still think DJT is the best "bang-for-ounze" do-everything-dog you can get.

Pric65,

you describe them very well and I totally agree with your remarks. However, they require a lot of consequence, a very tough hand, and, in comparison to other more "urbanite" dogs, a good measure of force once in a while.

I was about to loose patience but have discovered that like human beings they also need time to mature and settle down a little bit. If your mental health endures 2 to 3 years of swinging between excitement and hate, you should give them a try.

If done well, they become excellent tracking dogs and the family loves them, too.

Brian,

I really buy into the concept that a smaller statured dog is the way to go for Blood/Trail work if that is to be their main purpose in life. Teckels, Cockers, Small Munsterländers and the Bavarian & Hannover Bloodhounds, all excellent candidates.

Personally, before getting anopther Dog I'd try to work your GSP then the 6 yr. old Long Hair.

The best Blood Work is done by dogs with a placid, staid character, therefore the suggestion to attempt to work your 11 yr. old dog first. Could be he takes to it well at his age. A DJT, or other young Dog has so much pent up energy that attempting the maintain their concentration on a single Blood Trail can be, well, frustrating at times. For this reason I tend away from younger dogs and those who tend work at 65,000 Revs (DJT & young Springers "spring" to mind).

The General Purpose Dogs, the Deutsche Short Hair & Wire-Haired dogs are O.K., too.

I had a Tri-Colored Jagd Cocker Bitch that won a 40-hr. Blood Trail Trial compteting against 9 other Dogs, mostly Teckels and I didn't even start working her on Blood until she was 7 years old. Calmer is always better.

The Bavarian & Hannover Bloodhounds (whelps are expensive, if you can locate one) are the best of all breeds for exclusive Blood Work but there's the question of three (young?) children and although they are great family Dogs a Dog that works Blood exclusively requires a quiet environment for optimal results.

Good Luck with your Bloodhound search.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Calmer is always better.

Yes, absolutely.

I'd like to add that most likely practice and training are more important than genes, at least among the hunting breeds.

I'd go with Bavarian - prejudiced :

fearless if needed:



handy - I take mine up on the high stand:



kids friendly:

Guys thanks for all the thoughts.

The only "dedicated" deer dog I have seen in operation was John Fenton's Bavarian Bloodhound. It was impressive to watch.

I am naturally inclined towards the GSP. My old dog would have made a fantastic deer dog if he had been trained for it when he was younger. He is very laid back, very methodical when hunting (far too slow for field trails) and he has a great nose.

If I get a deer this weekend, I will save some blood and the liver and try him out.

The Langhaar is crazy. Much too fast and excitable for deer work I think. He is a pure bird dog, he is actually quite "setter" like in character.

brian,

ive got a red and white setter, being of setter nature, in her "early days" she was a wee bit eractic to say the least, she is nine now and i have tried her on two deer that needed tracking, she found them easily,

having never trained her on bloodtrail the hardest bit was reading her signs, soon got it sussed though.

all dogs have got good noses, let them use them, if you get the basics right with obedience i reckon you could use any dog you like.

try the langhaar, you might be pleasantly surprised.

setters love kids as well, of all the dogs we've ever had the setter indoors soaks up as much attention as you can through at it, get her out in the field its nose down all the way.



once she got on this scent you couldnt shake her off!

Brian,

Pot a hapless Deer and save the blood. Pour as much as you can into a smallish bucket and then transfer it to a shampoo sized bottle with a small spout on the cap. You can freeze the larger portion of the blood and thaw it out as needed to train with.

Start by being very generous with the trail, basically squeezing blood the entire length (not gushes mind you) making it initially 100 meters, no more; in a gentle curve so you dog can use the wind. Make sure place a Deer Skin at the end of the trail and have some Goodies (Doggie Treats) inside. Do everything to make it a pleasurable & positive expereince.

Calm the dog down and sit him a few meters before the start of the blood for a few minutes and THEN take him to the Trail.

Work him 2-3 times a week leaving the trail to cool for a couple of hours before you start out.

Start making it longer, adding curves and then complete changes in direction (left-right) with less blood until you are using a broom stick with a piece of sponge tied to it and dipped in blood.

If you older GSP dog can master that - he'll do just fine!

Good Luck

Gerry, thanks. I am sitting here reading a book that tells me to do exactly that, rather than the work I should be doing just now.

Now to find a suicidal deer.

Brian, I have been lurking on this thread since it started and find it very interesting. What book are you reading?

Dave

Dave, there is very little written in English on this subject.

There is a chapter in this book worth reading:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Specialist-Gundog-Training-Righ...id=1226512569&sr=1-2

This is another excellent book on training dogs for blood tracking:

Born to track!

I found that a dog that could take down a wounded but alive deer was beyond me even though I stalk an awful lot. I found the behaviour traits at home and in the field unacceptable. They tend to aggression at home and poorer obedience in the field.

I took a long hard look and decided I needed a dog that could find a dead deer within a reasonable distance and that it had to be 100% obedient. I got a lab bitch, trained her for obedience and paid huge attention to getting it right.

So I get to shoot at last light next to cover, get a companion I can always take and life is a lot easier. She stays in the footwell of my car in a work car park 3 days a week and in 6 years has yet to be spotted.

She was not designed for non lethal or mobile wounds such as jaw or leg.

Unless you have large parcels of land or good relations with neighbours the continental style of follow up (as exemplified by Mouse etc) while fantastic is not realistic in parts of the UK and down right dangerous for the dog.

1894mk2,
ABSOLUTELY NOT! We are talking about two different mental characteristics that each can make a dog take down and kill a dear swiftly. There are 9 mental characteristics that are used by the Swedish military when doing mental assessments of dogs for military assignments. I don't know what they are called in english but the swedish terms for two of them roughly translates to "sharpness" and "bravery".

Sharpness is a dogs ability to get angry and kill. Bravery is a dogs ability to overcome fear, and kill without ever being angry. I had him tested by a military dog handler, at a military facility. My dog is off the charts with regards to bravery, but with almost unmeasurable sharpness.

Sharp dogs are dangerous to children, brave dogs... well.. my dog doesn't even defend itself from my kids or any other kids for that matter. But I have seen him run THROUGH a wounded roe deer and killing it almost leisurely as he passed by, in a fraction of a second. The sight gives me goosebumps still. Tracking wounded game is not a matter of fair play, the animal suffers and needs to be taken down.

However, obedience isn't really compatible with good bloodhound work. There are two ends on a blood hound's leash, the "dog end" and the "stupid's end". The dog is the one that knows what his doing when tracking wounded game, the dog handler is just stupidly tagging along to shoot if the opportunity arises. If the dog has a tendency to believe that his handler knows what he's doing, and maybe trying to please, you are in deep trouble.

quote:

They tend to aggression at home

John Fenton's Bavarian bitch "Sika" took down and killed a Sika doe that I messed up a shot on. It did not leave a mark on the doe's carcass.

A more pleasant and friendly little dog you could not hope to meet.

A friend of mine had a Wheaten Terrier cross lurcher. It was truly the most vicious dog I ever saw, it would kill literally anything, foxes, other dogs, brock, the lot. It ahd to be put down. It was the only dog I have ever been genuinely afraid of.

Indeed! There are plenty of similar examples. As far as I appreciate a tracking dog's ability to kill independently (a hunter will never get to an animal hit low in a front leg, or in the jaw) I would never ever have a dog that kills with sharpness. I've got kids, dammit.

Bravery is absolutely compatible with kids, and it makes for cool and calm dogs. DJT's often got a ton of both and those who have really earn the nickname "hand grenade with fur". DJT's often get their owners into trouble. However, these dogs are way too smart to be usable tracking dogs.

When the germans started to breed on the best tracking dogs this turned out to be a breeding of the most stupid and stubborn dogs. The results were the Hannover and the Bavarian style bloodhounds.

Should have been clearer - I meant with other dogs not children/people.

Perhaps the main point of my post should have been you must judge your own character and circumstances and choose accordingly.

I thought I could overcome a GWPs 'characteristics'. I couldn't.

The king

http://www.verein-hirschmann.de/

The hanoverian hound ist the top of the top dog
for this job.

Very hard to get one.

No one will sell you one of these dogs without a lot of exeriences in tracking.

The "Bayerische Gebirgsschweißhund"

deputy of the hanoverian

http://www.kbgs.de/

And here is No. 3

http://www.dachsbracke.de/cgi-src/dachsbracke2/htmllib/index.html

My preference is for GWP's both of mine will air scent, blood trail and pull down a runner, both also have great temprements and are great with the kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Burkhard:
The king

http://www.verein-hirschmann.de/

The hanoverian hound ist the top of the top dog
for this job.

Very hard to get one.

No one will sell you one of these dogs without a lot of exeriences in tracking.

But they are a bit too heavy. They get heavily mauled if they get too close to boar, the extra weight make them sink down deeper on the boar fangs, if the boar comes this close.

My Lab pup, Annie, made her second find this morning. My son shot a doe and made a decent quartering away shot, but she ran about 200 yards. My pup trailed her the whole way and even crossed a creek to find the deer. I am not sure who was more excited, me or her.

Jeff,

Waidmansheil!

To you, your Son & Annie!

The tradition here in The Fatherland is that first the animal (Large Game only) is given it's "Last Bite" and then the Hunter (your son) is presented with the "Shooters Branch", which is worn on the right side of the cap/hat signifying that they were a successful hunter on this outing.

Those who truly know "The German Hunting Tradition" then take their Shooter's Branch and break/split it in half - giving the other half of their Branch to the Dog (worn in the Dog's collar) that asisted in tracking and locating the animal.

I don't understand the german hunting rituals.

After shooting a woodcock, one should put a cardboard box over one's head and run naked over the Autobahn. After shooting a boar, one should rub cheese dip in one's armpits. After shooting a badger, one should sleep with the dead badger as pillow for one month and three days. And so forth

Nah, jokes aside. Treating the fallen animal respectfully should go very far, I think...

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Jeff,

Waidmansheil!

To you, your Son & Annie!

The tradition here in The Fatherland is that first the animal (Large Game only) is given it's "Last Bite" and then the Hunter (your son) is presented with the "Shooters Branch", which is worn on the right side of the cap/hat signifying that they were a successful hunter on this outing.

Those who truly know "The German Hunting Tradition" then take their Shooter's Branch and break/split it in half - giving the other half of their Branch to the Dog (worn in the Dog's collar) that asisted in tracking and locating the animal.

Gerry
Thank you for sharing your traditions with me, and I will pass this on to my son.

quote:

should go very far, I think...

HerrBerg,

Obviously, you don't understand.....don't stray too far; stay in Sweden - you've arrived.



I'm a Cynic too.


Jeff,

You're welcome.

I'm as American as Apple Pie - just living abroad. I find the The German Hunting Tradition quite interesting. Like pretty much everything else in Life; I absorb what's interesting & relevant and the rest well, sorta goes out with the bathwater. I guess you could say, enlightened.

Actually, I'm about as happy for Annie as you are. Her recent two Trailing successes speak volumes.....



You have obviously located some Teutonic heritage in Texas, as the Doe, your Son & Annie are posed right next to the Blaser R93 Professional!

Careful now nr 10, there are more things and people then Herr Berg in Sweden

I for one, I will not run across no road wearing a badger on my head or elsewhere for that fact neither would I belittle the german traditions,

they are there for a reason, respect for the game.

Good one Jeff, something to remeber in days to come, should I have a son, I to would be as proud of mine as you are of yours.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by HerrBerg:
When the germans started to breed on the best tracking dogs this turned out to be a breeding of the most stupid and stubborn dogs. The results were the Hannover and the Bavarian style bloodhounds.

I am quite sure that many of my fellow Waidgenossen will not agree but your interesting theory sounds quite reasonable to me...

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:


You have obviously located some Teutonic heritage in Texas, as the Doe, your Son & Annie are posed right next to the Blaser R93 Professional!

Not hijack this thread, but here is another picture of the Blaser Professional 6.5x55 in action from earlier the same day, but my pup wasn't needed for this one.