Bought a used Rem 700 BDL 223Rem off of the internet. Took it out today to see how it shoots. Loaded 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenades over 25gr H335. The bullets keyhole at 25yards. I'm cleaning the bore out and will try some other bullets. Other than that, any ideas? Could a barrel be that bad?

Yes, but it could be the bullets or the crown, too.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Bought a used Rem 700 BDL 223Rem off of the internet. Took it out today to see how it shoots. Loaded 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenades over 25gr H335. The bullets keyhole at 25yards. I'm cleaning the bore out and will try some other bullets. Other than that, any ideas? Could a barrel be that bad?

I haven't seen the 50 gr VG, but the 36 grainer is as long as a regular 50 grainer...

therefore, did you check if the one in 12 twist in the 223, was fast enough to stabilize the bullet?

I'd check with that first...

Update:

A quick look at Barnes Web site, and it indicates that for that bullet they do recommend at least a one in 10 twist... your Remington has a one in 12... there is nothing wrong with your barrel, that bullet just requires a faster twist to stabilize...

IMHO it's the twist. Any of the bulk PSPs should let you know right-a-way. roger

Please do follow up on the out come... And try a factory load after the cleaning. Though if 25 gr of H335 doesn't work... Lord help you!

I'd be surprised if the bullets keyholed within 25yds. if it just a matter of 1-12" twist.

George

I would be skeptical it is the twist. You didn't say how bad the keyholing was.

If it were my rifle I would clean it first with Wipe Out until ALL the blue was gone and use a nylon brush in between the Wipe Out cleanings. Test several makes of bullets, heavier and lighter weights, and powders.

I would also make a Cerrosafe chamber cast including 3" or so of the barrel in front of the chamber, then check the throat length with each bullet...I've had any number of rifles that shot pisspoor that had overly long throats in 22 and 6mm cals.

Check the muzzle diameter against the chamber cast and I would slug the barrel to see where the high spots were.

Whether you were ripped off or not depends on several factors...if you got too good a price or if the rifle appears to be worn badly then mayby the deal was "too good to be true". A BDL is still an excellent action.

It take a lot of shooting to wear out a .223 but it can be done quickly if the barrel was allowed to get hot too many times.

Alternatives are...basically a new barrel or rechamber to 222 Rem Mag...it is just long enough to usually clean up a long throated 223...or to any of the larger cased 22 cals, or cutting and recrowning the muzzle back an inch or so to clean up a loose muzzle. Personally for the costs involved, unless you can do the work yourself, a new barrel is my choice.

Or...hunt down who ripped you off and rip him off...editorially speaking of course.

'Njoy

There are folks having troubles with the 36gr. because of twist vs. bullet length! Why not the 50gr.? roger

Well I guess this is a case of "Read the directions Dummy!" Having shot everything from 110gr to 200gr in 30cal and 235 to 350gr in 375cal and never had a stability problem, I figured twist schmist, if it's 224cal, it ought to shoot. Not so. Barnes recommends twist 1 in 10 or faster. I loaded up some Hornady 60gr V-Max (rec twist 7-12)and put 5 shots into a group you could cover with a quarter at 25 yards(this over the hood- not benchrest)- Problem solved. I guess when they list the recommended twist rate on the bullet box they aren't kidding. Now all I have to do is find a bullet that will shoot that is unleaded since our idiot state banned the use of lead bullets for coyote.
Here is the target. Talk about keyholes! And bear in mind this is a 6 in bull and at 25 yards! Live and learn.

Its just as likely, with what I've seen that "you got took" by Barnes. Their VG bullets are not a sweeping success by any stretch. They are light for length and have a very poor BC as well.

To give the gun any kind of performance evaluation I would certainly try just about any other .224 cal bullet you can find. In a standard twist .223 I have yet to find one that will not shoot a 40 gr. Hornady Vmax.

Some very impressive keyholes though! Glad you figured out the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Its just as likely, with what I've seen that "you got took" by Barnes. Their VG bullets are not a sweeping success by any stretch. They are light for length and have a very poor BC as well.

To give the gun any kind of performance evaluation I would certainly try just about any other .224 cal bullet you can find. In a standard twist .223 I have yet to find one that will not shoot a 40 gr. Hornady Vmax.

22Cal. V-MAX 35g
BC 0.109
SD 0.100

22Cal. Varmint Grenade 36g
BC 0.149
SD 0.102
------------------------------------------------
22Cal. V-MAX 50g
BC 0.242
SD 0.142

22Cal. Varmint Grenade 50g
BC 0.183
SD 0.142

Note: Barnes recommends a 1:10 or faster twist rate for the 50g VG

Yes the 50g VG has a lower BC than the V-Max, but in 35-36g the nod goes to the VG.

---Mike

Oh, I forgot to add:

ANY bullet that explodes when it hits a GRAPE, has my attention.

Varmint Grenade VS. Grape

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:Oh, I forgot to add:

ANY bullet that explodes when it hits a GRAPE, has my attention.

I see the GRAPE exploding but the bullet appears to exit the grape still "bullet shaped"

Mabey somewhere downrange it'd show what is being claimed but not proven by that video...

AD

Is that what they call grape shot?? roger

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Its just as likely, with what I've seen that "you got took" by Barnes. Their VG bullets are not a sweeping success by any stretch. They are light for length and have a very poor BC as well.

To give the gun any kind of performance evaluation I would certainly try just about any other .224 cal bullet you can find. In a standard twist .223 I have yet to find one that will not shoot a 40 gr. Hornady Vmax.

22Cal. V-MAX 35g
BC 0.109
SD 0.100

22Cal. Varmint Grenade 36g
BC 0.149
SD 0.102
------------------------------------------------
22Cal. V-MAX 50g
BC 0.242
SD 0.142

22Cal. Varmint Grenade 50g
BC 0.183
SD 0.142

Note: Barnes recommends a 1:10 or faster twist rate for the 50g VG

Yes the 50g VG has a lower BC than the V-Max, but in 35-36g the nod goes to the VG.

---Mike

Oh, I forgot to add:

ANY bullet that explodes when it hits a GRAPE, has my attention.

Varmint Grenade VS. Grape

In my limited experience with Barnes VGs I have concluded that there is no way in hell I would base the success of a long trip out to shoot prairie dogs at much expense on the quality and accuracy of VGs. I would however make that trip using only 40 gr. Vmaxs in my gun of choice.
Since the length and shape of a Barnes .224 caliber 36 gr. VG is much closer to that of a 40 gr. Vmax make the BC comparison that way.

I used them, I thought they shot poorly in my guns, I think they are not the best for the buck...wouldn't use them again.

Ok so they disintegrate in a grape...not much good if you can't hit the grape.

For accuracy with the 36 grainer, tested in 223...

I picked up two boxes and tested them with about 12 to 15 different powders...

hands down accuracy champs were:

24 grains of IMR 4198

25 grains of IMR 4895...

25 grains of H 332 and 28 grains of Varget get honorable mention...

Man the picture of the key hole target is cool. I have never seen that in a centerfire rifle. Ron

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I see the GRAPE exploding but the bullet appears to exit the grape still "bullet shaped"

Mabey somewhere downrange it'd show what is being claimed but not proven by that video...

AD

Allan, watch the BOTTOM VIDEO. (2nd 36g video)
It clearly shows the bullet exploding, as it is a longer shot.

That "black puff" is the innards of the bullet coming apart.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
Man the picture of the key hole target is cool. I have never seen that in a centerfire rifle. Ron

Well take a 22 caliber centerfire, with a one in 14 or one in 12 twist and shoot an 80 grain bullet at it...

Then you can have your own! target with a 22 caliber bullet keyholed in it...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Ron:

Well take a 22 caliber centerfire, with a one in 14 or one in 12 twist and shoot an 80 grain bullet at it...

Then you can have your own! target with a 22 caliber bullet keyholed in it...

Why R U giving away all the secrets? roger

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Since the length and shape of a Barnes .224 caliber 36 gr. VG is much closer to that of a 40 gr. Vmax make the BC comparison that way.

What?

I made the comparison using Barnes published data, on bullets of the same (or as close as could be compared) weight bullets, intended for the same usage. NOT by their OAL, religious affiliation, color or sexual preference...

I don't usually mix weights when comparing BC or SD as most often doing so would tend to grant an unfair advantage to the heavier for diameter bullet. Right? So what real good would that do?

Apples and oranges, man. Apples and oranges.

Using that logic I might as well compared them to VLDs, Amaxs or Sierra MK's.

Bullets with entirely different uses.

I almost forgot:

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
In a standard twist .223...

And what exactly is a standard twist .223?

1-9 or 1-12? Or something else entirely?

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
ANY bullet that explodes when it hits a GRAPE, has my attention.

Sorry Flippy, you can watch that video over and over but I have shot varmints with them and there was absolutely no "grenading". In fact I had to shoot them twice to finish them off. These bullets made pencil hole in and out. The accuracy was outstanding but the terminal performance was lacking in my 22-250.

Just an update. The Hornady 60 gr VMAX (Rec twist 1 in 7-12) shot into about an 8 inch group at 100 yds. I had previously purchased some 62gr TSX without realizing that they are recommended for 1 in 7-9 twist rate but I saw on the Barnes website that they had developed loads using a 1 in 12 barrel so I loaded some up. More keyholes! I have some 45 and 53 gr TSX on order and will try those when they arrive. Meanwhile the coyotes are safe unless I get out the 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Since the length and shape of a Barnes .224 caliber 36 gr. VG is much closer to that of a 40 gr. Vmax make the BC comparison that way.

What?

I made the comparison using Barnes published data, on bullets of the same (or as close as could be compared) weight bullets, intended for the same usage. NOT by their OAL, religious affiliation, color or sexual preference...

I don't usually mix weights when comparing BC or SD as most often doing so would tend to grant an unfair advantage to the heavier for diameter bullet. Right? So what real good would that do?

Apples and oranges, man. Apples and oranges.

Using that logic I might as well compared them to VLDs, Amaxs or Sierra MK's.

Bullets with entirely different uses.

I almost forgot:

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
In a standard twist .223...

And what exactly is a standard twist .223?

1-9 or 1-12? Or something else entirely?

Buy'em and shoot'em...... to be quite honest I don't give a rats ass. I just wouldn't. Good luck with that. Just got back from a weekend of bustin off a few....we didn't bring any "Varmint Grenades" because of our previous experiences with them. Fast twisted .223s are a relatively new thing....for many years prior the standard twist was 1-12. Again I don't give a rats ass...........

Go to Bob Whites "the shooters corner" I think it's called and buy a brand new takeoff barrel for about $50 plus shipping. screw it on and your good to go. Check headspace when you do this. Mine headspaced fine. Well worth the 50 bucks.

Got the 45 and 53 gr TSX's today and loaded them atop 25gr H335. The gun came with a Tasco scope on it and in order to avoid any sight problems, I screwed a spare scope on. The 53gr shot into the same 8 inch "group" as the other bullets but the 45gr finally settled down to about 1 1/2 inches at 100yds. I guess the barrel just won't stabilize anything longer? I can now start playing with loads to see what it is capable of and will probably get some 40gr Barnes and give those a try.

I'd just buy some 50gr or 55gr Hornady Spire points and shoot them. If they won't shoot, I'd trash that barrel. Right it off as a learning experiance.

Have another barrel put on.

Since you can't have lead bullets I'd just buy 50gr Vmax or Blitzking those should work!
Since you're getting 40gr Barnes, those should work too.
Let me know if you want to get rid of the 223 bullets that won't work.
I can probably dig up about 10 40grn Vmax if you want to try them.

Dude !!!

Use a cleaning rod to actually measure the twist rate of the barrel. Alot of the new Remington varmint and police rifles have the 1:9 twist. Try a few factory Winchester 62gr rounds through it. Then some good 75gr loads. I've got one that really likes the Sierra 77gr.HPBT bullets ahead of Varget right now. I'm still in the development phase. Just a thought.

After playing with bullets, bedding and scopes without much success, I am going to take Coyotejunki's advice and order a take off barrell from Shooters Corner. For $50 bucks it's worth a try. BTW the twist in this barrel measures 1 in 14. I'll see about ordering something with a faster twist. Anyone know if this was standard on Remingtons years ago? This rifle has the safety that locks the bolt handle down so I know it's an older one.

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Buy'em and shoot'em...... to be quite honest I don't give a rats ass. I just wouldn't. Good luck with that.
...Fast twisted .223s are a relatively new thing....for many years prior the standard twist was 1-12. Again I don't give a rats ass...........

I used to “deal†with “people†like this at the gunshop. People who “don’t give a rats assâ€, yet seem to always have an opinion on something they don’t know, oh-excuse me,

quote:

don’t give a rats ass

about.

skb2706, whether it matters to you or not, knowing your equipment IS important. If Blacktailer had been told the twist was 1-14 in the first place, it would have been much easier to ascertain the reason for the key-holing problem from the beginning.
1-14 is not a very common twist for a .223, BUT 1-9 and 1-7 have been around since at least 1981.
Ever hear of an AR? Colt? SS109? Other makers used this twist also.

Sorry, I forgot

quote:

…to be quite honest you don't give a rats ass.

Good luck with that.

I shoot lots of prairie dogs with lots of different people several times a year. Not one of them would balance the success if their trip out on Barnes Varmint Grenades. That speaks volumes about the confidence people have in them.We have all tried them in a variety of guns, twists, chamberings .....

There are better choices for the same money with less hassle.

quote:

Originally posted by Ammo Troop:

Sorry Flippy, you can watch that video over and over but I have shot varmints with them and there was absolutely no "grenading". In fact I had to shoot them twice to finish them off. These bullets made pencil hole in and out. The accuracy was outstanding but the terminal performance was lacking in my 22-250.

Same here. They are shooting moa for me, but they are not breaking up as in the video (bogus?)

I am still prepared for a rogue grape attack!

I had a TCR .223 that had a 1-14 twist barrel. It wouldn't stabilize a 55 grain ballistic tip but would stabilize the 36 grain varmint grenade and every 50 grain bullet I tried in it. It shot the old Barnes Varminator lead core bullet extremely well. It also liked any 40 grain bullet I fed it. But it wouldn't shoot a 55. I couldn't keep em on a paper plate at 100 yds.

Finally decided to have a Douglas 1 in 9 twsit barrel put on. The 1 in 14 factory barrel was evidently a dog as the only bullets that it would shoot were the 40gr Bergers and 35gr Vmax neither of which are now legal in Calif. Everything else with any powder/primer/case/seating-length combo wouldn't do much better than 2MOA if it didn't keyhole. I guess the moral of the story if there is one is that I didn't really get took by anyone because the dealer that I bought the rifle from had no idea how the rifle shot and it just happened to have a marginal factory barrel. When it's done, I'll hopefully have a one hole rifle for a little more than a new factory rifle would have cost.

I have a Contender barrel that I believe is 1:9. This is as near as I can measure by using a tight patch and a tape measure on the cleaning rod method. I am going to try some of the 50 grain varmint grenades and some of the heavier lead core bullets to see just what I can stabilize in it. I have heard of good long range results for some of the 68-75 grain bullets using a 1:9 twist barrel. To much fun to be had and to little time to have it. DW

No offense Flippy but for a lot of us 1981 wasn't that long ago. before the ss109 most factory 22 centerfires were 1-14 except the Hornet which was always 1-16. I got kids older than the ss109 by a decade.

And 1-14" 22s are common as stink in the used gun market. Unfortunately, most folks selling an old family gun never heard of twist rate much less know what it is on the gun they're disposing of. Always good to ask first but don't expect an accurate answer, if any.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I see the GRAPE exploding but the bullet appears to exit the grape still "bullet shaped"

Mabey somewhere downrange it'd show what is being claimed but not proven by that video...



AD

Allan, watch the BOTTOM VIDEO. (2nd 36g video)
It clearly shows the bullet exploding, as it is a longer shot.

That "black puff" is the innards of the bullet coming apart.

Is what is outlined the bullet?

Just to follow on whats been discussed so far, i shoot a cooper .223 which has a 1-9 twist barrel.
I was given a few 36gr grenades to try, i said the would`nt work, but loaded five up with 27gr of H335, took the rifle to the range and shot a .5" group at 100yds
They measured 1.890 to the ogive so i loaded them just touching the lands.
I hope to try them out on some rabbits soon, but it has`nt stopped raining for three days