How can we make a test to see if some of these match bullets with very high ballistic coeficients will expand or not?

For a specific example lets say it's a coyote at 800 yards. Now some of the time the bullet may not hit any bone, not even a rib. So I propose using water filled cartons for the test. Since I just don't have a range where I can set such stuff up I wonder if we could compare what we know will expand at some range, match it's velocity with a match bullet and fire it with a reduced load at short range where it's easy to hit the water filled jugs also.

I know tests have been done like this and the rpms of the bullet will be a lot less with a reduced load but let me be specific. Say I call up Sierra and ask them at what velocity will their 140 gr .264 SBT still expand on a non bone hit on a coyote and let me have 1900 fps for purposes of discussion. My 264 WM will get 3100 fps to start that bullet and with it's Ci of .495 but the Lapua Scenar 123 gr match bullet has a Ci of .547 and I estimate that I can get it out at 3200 fps maybe more.

The 140 gr Sierra SBT will get to 700 yds before it goes below 1900 fps and it will drift 33" but the match Lapua will drift only 28" at that range and still be going 2050 fps. The Lapua 123 gr will not drop below 1900 fps until it gets to 820 yards a 120 gr advantage over the hunting bullet and it may be more accurate and it will kick a little less.

So I propose shooting the 140 Sierra SBT into my standard test at 20 feet but the bullet will have a reduced load and be going only say 2000 fps. I will get to see this bullet and compare it to a Lapua 123 match bullet that I start out at say 2100 fps.

This test is not that hard to do and for sure I won't miss!

I have shot a 150 gr 7 mm MK into the water filled cartons up close that was going 3000 fps and at that high velocity it expanded more than hunting bullets. In fact it flew apart more than hunting bullets is a better description.

In summary I just don't have a range available where I can blast away at long range and shooting the reduced loads will compare a known bullet to an unknown.

Ive been wanting to try some Lapuys. Let me know what you find out with your reduced load test. Are you going to be taking pictures?
Thanks

I ordered the Lapua Sencars and I also have plenty of other match bullets to test.

This is easier to type than to do but I will do in after the snows gone up North.

I may try pictures. Time will tell.

I don't know what length barrel you have on your 264 Win Mag. but I have to believe you can beat
3200 fps by a good bargin. I know of a couple of long range shooters that are getting 3220 from their 6.5 X 284's (28" barrels) safely and accurately. Assuming your barrel is 26" i bet you can be in the neighbor hood of 3400 and maybe a little change.

Just yesterday (Saturday) my wife shot a 25" barreled 260 using the 108 Scenar at a modest 3180 fps. The distance was 600 yards the targets 10" steel plates, in a very stiff cross wind. It performed very well. she had 21 hits out of 30 shots. According to the Infinity program it is still running 2092 fps at that range. And that is adjusting for temperature, etc.

I don't have any idea how they would perform on coyotes or other similar sized vermin, but those bullets give up velocity very grudingly, and shoot very well. Of coures so does the MatchKing's
It will be interesting to see what the tests show.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

[ 03-10-2003, 07:55: Message edited by: RiverRat ]

The long range hunting group have been taking Elk at 1500 yards using the 30-378 cartridge and the 220 grain HPBT. The match bullets are designed to punch neat clean holes in targets and be accurate at extreme range. The 30-378 using the 220 HPBT has the same striking energy at 1000 yards as the 30-06 does with that same bullet at 100 yards.

Hollow point hunting bullets aka varmint bullets have jackests designed to open very violently when they strike the intended target, even at reduced veloicty.

Bullets desinged for long range target shooting would probably punch nest clean holes through thin skinned game like coyotes. As they loose down range velocity it not likely they will have any mushroom quality.

As velocity and bullet diameter increases the copper jacket is thicker to reduce the possibilty of bullet breakup at all practical hunting ranges. Extreme range hunting is not considered reasonable ranges by most seasoned hunters. With the proper equipment and a shooter who knows his ability with specialized equipment reduce the unknown dramtically.

There are a select group of extreme range hunters, who have through testing, and specially equipped rifles perfected their skill at taking game. With many years of experience at shooting long range they are very successful.

The average hunter has not mastered nor does he have the range finding equipment used by the long range hunting group to be very successful at that tactic. The range finder needed to range any aniaml at extreme distances accurately is crucial. Bullet drop at extreme range shooting can be as much as 29' or more. There is no room for error for a hit or a miss in the heart lung area that is only the size of a gallon plastic jug at 1500 yards.

The longest recored shot I know of on a game animal using a factroy rifle was 898 yards, and that shot was pure luck not skill. Guessing the distance to the target and then the holdover required could not have been anything but luck. The animal in question was a buck antelope standing stock still in the distance. The bullet used to make that shot was a soft point flat based hunting bullet. Very rare occurance by any hunter venue and not the norm in any average hunting situation.

Huntimg bullets of .308 diamater or less should open to twice their original size for maximum effect on any game animal. In the old days some big game hunters used .308 full metal jacketed RN bullets on Elephant with success using brain shots. Hunting bullets must produce hydrostatic shock along with maximum upset qualities through mushrooming by the bullet used as it passes through the heart lung area. Many Elk have been shot through the lungs only to run off and survived because the wrong hunting bullet was used. Many have been shot through no mans land between the spine and the lungs only to run off and survive the wound.

Nothing while in the field hunting is cast in stone and will work as expected. Murphys Law will rear his ugly head and destroy all well made plans on any hunt. This season for me two bullets hit small unseen twigs on two different deer and on the third fine buck deer the rifle did not go off, all in one day of hunting. I packed up my gear and gave Murphy's Law his due and drove home. Returned later in the week and saw nothing the remainder of the hunt. Always expect the unexpected when hunting big game, that is the only sure thing in big game hunting.

That was a well thought out response 66. I've been interested in this long-range coyote shooting stuff for a couple years now, and have just got to the point of researching bullet performance. I haven't taken a lot of coyotes at ranges beyond 400 yds. yet, but i do know of one guy that's shooting some sort of 22-6mm hybrid. i think he's getting right around 3600 f.p.s. with the 75 gr. A-Max bullet. The gunsmith that built this rifle for him said that the expansion qualities of that bullet out of HIS rifle were inconsistent and he is abandoning that particular project. But i've had some pretty good results out of an 8 twist 26" barrelled .223AI AR with the new 69 gr. Nosler bullet at ranges approaching 600 yds.

maybe you should try to hit a milk jug at 800 yards before you go to the trouble? 1500 yard elk? I don't care who they are, thats just dumb. If the top rifle shots in the world can't clean 1000 yards targets at known distance with sighting shots and coaches reading the wind then how can anyone make a first shot wind call that good? Not responsibly for sure, sorry for ranting but this long range artilery game shooting stuff just boils my blood. Hell, you could ride a horse 1000 yards closer to a herd of elk before they cared you were there.

Reloader 66,

I am having a problem finding what your point is?

However your data on the 30/378 vrs the 30/06 is not correct. The 100 energy of a full load from the 30/06 is matched at 380 yards by the 30/378 and not 1000 yards. Again I don't know what that point illustrates in any case.

In particular I am trying to understand why you say some people are qualified to do this and others are not? Does this infer that I am not qualified?

I did chronograph my 264 WM with 142 MK's and they can do 3150 fps instrumental MV. And from 800 to 1000 yards it has more velocity than that expample out of the 30/378 and thus at least an equal chance to expand and that's what I want to determine.

Savage99 good topic. Just like sscoyote I too have become intrested in long range coyote killing. To test for expansion using water filled plastic bottles will tell you how these buillets will perform on water filled plastic bottles only. If you shoot them into wet news paper again your results wii be how they perform in wet news paper.What I am saying is to test for expansion on coyotes at long range you have to shoot coyotes at long range.There is no other test medeum that will give you the same results. Mr P.O. Ackley did testing for our milatery on how ball amo expansion at verious ranges. He used pigs and goates live to get his test results. His results were these test medeums would could not give him consistant results. Read his articals in P O Ackley reloading volm two. Now to get to expansion on match bullets forget it. Call the Serria tec, support line and talk to them about it. My advice would be to pick a good expanding bullet and work up a load from there.

Dog shooter,

It's a comparitive thing. If one agrees that a SBT will expand at 1900 fps in water, and it will then a MK shot into water will demonstrate how much that bullet expands if at all.