I need a varmint rig for groundhog and crows. I am intrigued with the 204 caliber but have also thought alot about the 223. I reload so I guess my only concern would be which is the cheapest components which I am willing to bet the 223 has. Okay which rifle and which caliber. Esox357.

If you are going to have only ONE varmint rifle it should be a 223.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
If you are going to have only ONE varmint rifle it should be a 223.

AD

I will have to agree. I've got more than a few rigs, but not a 223. If I was forced to replace them all with one it would be a 223, probably a Remington 700.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
If you are going to have only ONE varmint rifle it should be a 223.AD

X2 roger Without going into too much detail, of my three .223s the Savage 12bvSS-S has been a real lemon, the Ruger #1 is so-so, At the top of the list and hard to believe the Stevens Mod. 200.Non of the three are without fault, however. roger

In centerfires I've got two 223's, two 22.250's and two 243's that are just for varmints and if I had to start over again, the first one that I'd buy is a 223.

The 223 would be my first choice.
I have a few varmint guns and the 223 gets the most use from me and my son.
Easy to load for and there is ALWAYS 223 brass laying around at the range.

For me it would depend on the range you want to hunt. If 300 yards or less I would go with the 223. If you want to hunt ground hog's at distances over 300 yards then I would go with a 22-250. I know a lot of people lke the 204, but for me the 204 does not even deserve consideration for ground hog's(too light).

I despise crawl off's.

As far as what rifle is concerned. I would buy as nice of a rifle as you can afford-without scrimping on the scope. For varmints, the Bushnell 4200 makes a great scope. Tom.

I re-load, so number one choice for me is the 204.

I have a .222, .22-250, and a 204. My choice if I could only have one would be the .204 with 40 grain bullets. I have not had one crawl-off with mine. I also reload.

Anything that cannot be done by a 223 that you might consider doing with a 22-250? that can be done BETTER by either a 243 or a 6mmRem.

I'll "troll" a bit and say I see NO PURPOSE to bullets heavier than 55gr in a .224bore.

Just because the military in their "infinite wisdom"
keeps trying to make the 223Rem an "anti-personel"
round... (and failing miserably) doesn't mean that any of us should waste our hard earned money trying to follow them.

Frankly I think they were onto something with the 6.8SPC, but would think more highly of it if they made it a 7mm.

AD

I can not agree totally with the 243 theory vs. the 22 caliber's. If you check the BC's and velocities of the 75 grain A-max, then compare the 22 to the 243 75 grain pils, IMO the 22 caliber is superior. You have to go to the 100 grain bullets in the 243 to gain any superior long range ballistics. The problem with the 100's is they start to kick when you use them all day long, and they make seeing impacts almost impossible.

And I also disagree with the no crawl offs with the 204. I have shot too many ground hog's past 300 yards with the 204, and the 223, and you will have crawl off's, the 22-250 is necessary when you pass 300 or possibly 350 yards(for clean kills). Tom.

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I can not agree totally with the 243 theory vs. the 22 caliber's. If you check the BC's and velocities of the 75 grain A-max, then compare the 22 to the 243 75 grain pils, IMO the 22 caliber is superior. You have to go to the 100 grain bullets in the 243 to gain any superior long range ballistics. The problem with the 100's is they start to kick when you use them all day long, and they make seeing impacts almost impossible.

And I also disagree with the no crawl offs with the 204. I have shot too many ground hog's past 300 yards with the 204, and the 223, and you will have crawl off's, the 22-250 is necessary when you pass 300 or possibly 350 yards(for clean kills). Tom.

Tom, go right ahead and get wrapped up in the BC of a 224dia 75gr bullet being superior to that of a 243 diameter 75gr bullet.
IF I was talking about launching those 6mmdiameter bullets from a 6x45 or 6x47 I'd say that you were correct appologise and quietly disappear.

However I was talking about launching them from a 243Win or 6mm Rem which will drive those 75grain bullets 700fps-800fps faster than a 223/5.56NATO is capable of driving them, unless someone out there is loading using receipes from their "suicide for dummies" loading guide.

And I'm sorry, while a .03 difference in BC will win out over a 150-200fps difference in velocity, it won't when discussing a velocity difference that is just shy of 1000fps (5,56x45NATO Vs 243Win) and 1100fps Vs the 6mmRem.

77gr match bullets can only be driven to 2700-2800 at safe pressures from a 5.56x45NATO rifle


I can drive 70's ~3600fps from a 6mmRem and I can drive 80gr bullets to 3400-3500fps.

So is the 243win/6mmRem superior? I think so...

Atleast as a varminter.

serious target work where use of the 5.56x45 cartridge is REQUIRED is a special case that has no relevance to the real world where other persuits are engaged.

As for "not seeing the impact", I can only recall seeing the impact from my 6mm ONCE
and that was only because I managed to get back on target while the bullet was on it's way.
Recoil always knocks me off my sight picture
with a 6mm.

IT's one of the reasons I use my 223 with 40gr bullets so much, I love eyballing the bullet through the target....



AD

If it had to be one rifle only...............that would be so sad.

But I think I would go with the .223 in a Remmy 700 with a 26" tube, unless you wanted to do a lot of walking about.

I started with a 22-250 then added a .243 and lastly a .223 so what do I know? My main reason for the .223 was because I could get a suppressor for it in a trade out.

Out here in the West it seems the distances are longer for rockchucks, coyotes and other stuff so the 22-250 was the first choice due to the distances. However since getting my .223 and loading it with 40 grain NBT's I've had a load of fun shooting it and seem to choose it first if the application is at all close. I'm enjoying much more than I thought I would.

Allan I might agree with you when you compare the 223 Remington against the 243 Winchester. But I was speaking of comparing the 243 Winchester cartridge against the 22-250 or the 22-250 AI, or the 220 swift. We have to compare apples to apples. My recommendation was for a 22-250 for longer distances(past 300 yards). My recommendation was not for the 223. And the 700-800 fps difference in velocity dries up real fast out of the faster 22's.

If you compare the 75 grain bullet from the 223 caliber to the 75 grain bullet of the 243 caliber, at relative velocities(which is easily possible), then IMO the 22 caliber 75 grain pill is the better choice(which is exactly what I said). You need to go to the 100 grain pill to get an advantage with the 243 caliber(which is exactly as I said). And the 100 grain pill is just a little too much(IMO) for volume varmint shooting.

I am having a heavy barrel(28 inch Krieger) 22-250 built right now. with the 1in8 twist barrel for the 75's. I am hoping to be able to see impacts with this rifle, but I am not sure. I can only hope. Tom.

I absolutely love that picture at the top of the thread. Reminds me of my Grandfather.

I loved that old guy.

Bill

I started hunting groundhogs with at 243. Used it for a few years with 60 grain sierras. Switched to a 223 with 50 grainers, then a 22-250 with 50s. Now shoot a 25-06 and pretty much use nothing but 100 grain bullets. It really delivers over extended ranges and I use the same load on deer. It would not make much sense to use it for prarie dogs, but where I hunt ground hogs, a good day would yield 6-7 shots in an afternoon.

I have had a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .223 Rem. for a couple of years and like it well enough that I picked up a new Weatherby Vanguard Varmint Special yesterday. In .223 Remington. Inexpensive brass, good accuracy, the ability to push 40 gr bullets 3600 fps or better. Long barrel life. What's not to like. I am eager to get the new Weatherby sighted in and see how it responds to the Remington's favorite handloads. Also curious to compare the chronograph results of the 22" Weatherby barrel to the 26" Remington barrel with identical loads. Should be interesting.
I have never owned a .204, and I would worry about the barrel fouling, barrel wear, and having to buy .20 cal. cleaning rods, jags and brass. All of which I am quite sure is more costly than the much more common .22 cal. stuff. I agree with the posters who stated: "If you only have 1 varmint rifle, make it a .223. In a pinch, you can sometimes even find affordable factory ammo for it. (Although, I have always had better luck with handloads in my .223's.)

I've been looking at the New Stevens Model 25 Light Varminter. It's a shorter action built for 204 and 223 based cartridges. Looks like a nice set-up.

Might be what the doctor ordered in a 223 package.

When I was a young pup I started to look for the perfict varmint rifle. Now days you could start with a 223 Rem but if you turn out to be a gun nut you will wont try out other rifles and rounds. By the time your an old man you could end up with fourty or more rifles. Good luck, have fun.

try the .223 its a hell of a good gun. What distance you wanting to shoot at ?

Headoo1, You haven't used a .204 enough at extended ranges!! Or at least not the right .204! CRAWL-OFFS are due to poor shot placement..............from any size bullet!! Out to 500 yards, the .204(39 grain Sierras) is the go to gun on groundhogs for me! And I shoot with an extremely good friend and rifleman who uses a .223(50 grain VMAX) and out of, I think to the best of my remembrance from last year, we shot 293 groundhogs and as far as crawl-offs, the only one I remember was one, at about 108 yards shot with a 17HMR(piss poor shot placement!!) using the 20 grain bullet! A "center of groundhog" shot with a 30 caliber gun will generally produce a crawl-off!! And I've seen more crawl-offs from .243 Winchester and the various 30's than all the others put together over the years. I've got witnessed kills with the .204 at 600,691 and 771 yards on groundhogs but I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE CARTRIDGE FOR THOSE DISTANCES!! After 500, I'll go to the 6mmRem or the .260 Remington. GHD

Reading all these posts leaves me with a few thoughts.
1- we all have varying opinions about "best" calibers. I'm sure cavemen had the same disscusions about "best" rock or spear.
2- Whatever rifle/caliber you are most comfortable with will give you the confidence to place those shots better.
3- How much varmiting will you be doing? If you hunt deer with a 243 and will hunt groundhogs 2 or 3 times in the summer you may not want to go to the extra expense of a new rifle. It will also make you that much better with your deer rifle.

Personally I use my 243 for both. I like the heavy rounds on windy days.

quote:

Anything that cannot be done by a 223 that you might consider doing with a 22-250? that can be done BETTER by either a 243 or a 6mmRem.

I am with Allan, et al. You can't beat the 223 for shots under 300 yrds; anything further the 243 is what I recommend. Lou

I realize there are a hand full of people out there that can make shots on ground hog's over 600 yards. Howewver I believe it is a very small handful. My confidence range is out to 450 or 500 yards. I have made shots out to 600, but that is not a shot that I personally feel confident in.

Groundhog D. I have no doubt in what you say, I know there are a few guys out there that can do what you say you can do. But not very many.

I would bet that 99.95% of the hunters out there can not make a head shot on a ground hog at 500 yards.

I am not questioning the ability of a few people. I am commenting on the abilities of most(including myself).

I am sorry but I could not, nor would not take shots at ground hog's at 500+++ yards with a 223, or a 204 Ruger-to me it is just not an ethical shot. As I said above there a few who can do it, but I can not.

I think advocating a cartridge because of the ability of a few is a mistake. Sorry, this is just my opinion. Tom.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I can drive 70's ~3600fps from a 6mmRem and I can drive 80gr bullets to 3400-3500fps.

So is the 243win/6mmRem superior? I think so...

At least as a varminter....AD

Allan is completely correct in this.
243 Win does not have a much advantage as a 6mm, when the 6mm is built on a long action (as bullets can be seated out farther in a 6mm--with it's longer neck--than in a 243, with subsequent increase in powder capacity).

You can always load a bigger cartridge down, but you can't load a smaller cartrige to equal bigger cartridge performance. A .223 would still be my first choice IF I only had one varmint rifle, BUT, just about any .243 bore cartridge will out perform it.

If you don't believe me, shoot them both side by side.

2ndtimer, let me know how the weatherby does, I was looking at one of those as well, but still have my eyes on a T3 varmint model. Thanks Esox357.

I've used the .223 for over 30 years on every kind of varmint from here to Africa and several small to medium African Antelope. It is now legal for Deer in many States and some allow it for all big game. I'd stay with Pronghorn and under myself. Nosler Partitions in 60 grain weight are fine for small/medium big game.
Good hunting,
LDK

ESOX, I will let the others debate which caliber is is best if you can only have one. I will, therefore give you my opinions on the following calibers.

204 Ruger: Hard to beat for accuracy. A lot of fun to shoot without any noticeable recoil. Very easy to reload accurate rounds for. My 2 Savage 12VLP's will group Hornady factory ammo slightly under 1/2" for 5 shots in either gun. With reloads I can get that under 3/8" with many groups under the 1/4" mark. Have not shot any Prarie dogs with it yet.

223: Everybody should have at least one. Easy to load good ammo for. Components are as cheap as it gets, comparitively speaking of course. Both of my Savage Model 12 BVSS's will keep 5 shots under 1/2" all day long with my reloads. Mild recoil, shoot it all day long. I have taken P-dogs out to 500 yards using both V-maxes and Sierra BKs. No survivors.

22-250: After having avoided this one for years, I am hooked. I recently rebarreled a Savage 12BVSS in 308 to 22-250, it shoots. With reloads I can put 5 under 1/2" at 100 with regularity. the biggest surprise is that it will group just over 1/2" with Winchester White box.

220 Swift: This was my go to gun for shots over 500 yards for years. I have shot may p-dogs out to and beyond 600 with it. Impressive kills. My Savage 112 BVSS-S will hold right atround 1/2" with reloads.

25-06: If you want something that will take coyotes and antelope, this is my favorite. Very accurate. A little much for shooting all day but it will reach out and touch em. My Savage 112BVSS will, you guessed it, Keep 5 right right around 1/2 MOA.

I'll leave the caliber to you though, unless you expect to do a lot of shooting out to 500 and beyond, I would go with the 223 or the 204. As far as which gun to buy, get a Savage VLP and tick off the guys with the much more expensive guns. I have owned half a dozen Reminton 700s, 8 or so Ruger 77's and a couple Winchesters, none of them come close to the Savage.

Remington XR-100 chambered in .204R

If you forget all you have read and heard, and use these guns under field conditions a lot, it will dawn on you the more BS is scattered than in a good size stockyard..

There is very little, if any, practical difference between the 222, 223, 204 or even the 22-250 in the field...

I have used them all and today I only have a 222 and a 6x45..however if I miss a rockchuck, pinhead, gopher, prarie dog, or whatever varmint, I don't really get upset. Varmints are just a good way to enjoy a Saturday.

223 is hard to argue against in most cases. Buy some good surplus brass and some 50 gr bullets and go shoot.

As a walk aorund varmnt rig here in PA, it is really hard to beat a nice .223 sporter with a decent 3-9x40mm scope on it. Loaded with 40g V-MAX or Nosler BT it makes a great load for Ground Hogs. Sighted 1-1/8" high at 100, the 40g varmint bullets are point blank from 16 to 228 yards.

Loaded with 55g V-max or Nosler BT, or Sierra HP it makes a good Coyote gun for back east. Probably not so good for out west with the long range shots (that's what .22-250s, .243's, and .25-06's are for), but back here, it's great.

.223 has a lot to recommend it. Real easy to load for, about any sort of bullet you can imagine in any reasonable weight is readily available, not real noisy, doesn't burn a lot of powder, fun to shoot all day, ammo available every place that sells it, barrel life 3X to 4X that of a .243 shooting 55 g bullets, or a .22-250 shooting 40g bullets, and it works well in a small bolt action sporting rifle with 1:12 twist.

I like mine.

If I could only have one rifle (my worst nightmare) it would probably have to be a .243 Win simply because in my opinion, the .223 is not a suitable deer rifle.

Fitch