I am not a "preserve all the bugs & bunnies" type person, but I wonder why there is so much attention on the firearms/hunting forums on shooting coyotes as pests? Don't they serve a useful purpose to keep the deer herds thinned out. It seems like many places overpopulation of deer herds is leading to problems. Just askin. lee243

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:
I am not a "preserve all the bugs & bunnies" type person, but I wonder why there is so much attention on the firearms/hunting forums on shooting coyotes as pests? Don't they serve a useful purpose to keep the deer herds thinned out. It seems like many places overpopulation of deer herds is leading to problems. Just askin. lee243

In my area, the coyotes don't seem to put much of a dent in the deer population. We have lots of both. What I have noticed is that since coyote numbers have increased, there aren't anywhere near as many rabbits as there once were.

The reason most people view coyotes as vermin is that they go after livestock and pets more often than they kill deer.

From a sustainable hunting standpoint, having too many predators is a bad thing. In the absence of human intervention via controlled hunting, the predator/prey relationship is more of a boom-bust cycle than a natural balance. When prey animal populations are high, predator populations increase until there are too many predators for the prey animal population to support, then the predator population crashes and the prey population recovers.

As a hunter, I'd rather see steady populations of both predators and prey, so there's a good reason to kill both in appropriate numbers (as determined by sound science-based management).

I agree with kjjm4. In addition to that, where the coyote population starts ro rise, the other populations of game (perhaps all) birds goes to zero. The exception to this is turkeys. Where I hunt in northern Kansas the coyote population has exploded. The pheasant and quail populations are non-existent now. I have not seen a quail in two years and longer for pheasant. That's why the landowner has asked me to begin controlling the coyotes better.

At calving time, they will kill the calf and the cow both if they can catch them at the right moment.

quote:

As a hunter, I'd rather see steady populations of both predators and prey, so there's a good reason to kill both in appropriate numbers (as determined by sound science-based management).

That's a very reasonable answer. However, i have not seen any scientific information which indicates that coyote populations are in fact out of control thus need to be reduced.

On the ranch, rabbits, and quail have become almost extinct.Turkey numbers are very low for food and cover available. The scat of coyotes in the spring has a large quanity of deer hair.
I have hunted this area since 1973 and have watched the reduction of small game due to predation. Scientific studies have been conducted to determine fawn survival rates and heavy population of coyotes. With predator control, fawn survial will range up to 80%, from a low of 20% without.
As to coyote population, 3 weeks ago I shot a
150# feral hog at 9 pm and at about 9am the next am all that was left was hind leg bones and part of the pelvis. How many coyotes does it take to eat a 150# hog in 12 hrs???? A BUNCH. (Feral hogs are to Texas like rats are to New York City) The only respect I give feral hogs is to kill quickly and cleanly and as many as I can.

Generally speaking, I'd say the population isn't "out of control" in most areas. However, that doesn't negate the need for hunting to keep populations in check, especially when one considers that the presence of large numbers of coyotes depresses the population of other far more desirable species of small game and birds.

Coyotes are in absolutely no danger of extinction, so why not hunt them? Here's the thing; even if you shoot every coyote you see, it's darn near impossible to wipe them out. They're very smart, and readily avoid traps and hunters.

There's one other reason that I support hunting coyotes too: it keeps them afraid of humans. I've read many reports of coyotes stalking children and pets in suburban areas where they aren't hunted.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
Generally speaking, I'd say the population isn't "out of control" in most areas.
There's one other reason that I support hunting coyotes too: it keeps them afraid of humans. I've read many reports of coyotes stalking children and pets in suburban areas where they aren't hunted.

I've seen them roving the streets in Temple City, Altadena, Arcadia, Glendale , Burbank and Monrovia. One fishing buddy of mine has lost 3 cats and others dogs and cats. One mother pulled her child out of the mouth of one. they really are out of control, and this is LA county, densely populated. roger

quote:

I am not a "preserve all the bugs & bunnies" type person, but I wonder why there is so much attention on the firearms/hunting forums on shooting coyotes as pests? Don't they serve a useful purpose to keep the deer herds thinned out. It seems like many places overpopulation of deer herds is leading to problems. Just askin. lee243

NO, killing coyotes on sight is more beneficial for all wildlife an livestock than any other concept. Coyotes take out deer fawns but normally don't go after adult deer.

Does there need to be some coyotes in the system, Yes. Does there need to be the numbers that are out there, No.

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:That's a very reasonable answer. However, i have not seen any scientific information which indicates that coyote populations are in fact out of control thus need to be reduced.

I live and hunt in NY State. There is no scientific information that indicates that the turkey, rabbit, goose, grouse or bear populations are out of control either, yet we have a hunting season for them. They don't NEED to be reduced and, in fact, are not. Hunting is a method to MANAGE the populations - MANAGE can include allowing a take that increases populations, reduces populations or keeps them about the same.

Coyotes in NY are managed as a "fur bearer", meaning that there is a hunting and trapping season and other rules. Some states have a no season, no limit, etc. approach. Our coyote populations are managed through the hunting and trapping seasons to allow a SUSTAINABLE population that maintains a good predator-prey balance. There simply aren't enough people hunting and trapping coyotes to do anything but slow a population increase. There may be small pockets where trappers or possibly houndsmen have put a good dent in the yote populations, but I think most sporstmen overestimate the small effect of trapping and hunting on the overall coyote populations. There will, however, come a time when the predator-prey balance is met because the predator runs out of food.

I think the most simple answer to your question of "why is there so much attention on shooting coyotes as pests" is because many shooters see the coyotes as just that - pests. Pests that have killed their livestock or pets and had a negative (to them) effect on the populations of deer, turkey, grouse, rabbits and even red and grey fox in an area.

I hunt primarily in Connecticut and Vermont. I also hunt some on the Eastern border of NY with CT.

I started out in the 1950's. That was a long time ago. Only until the last few years have there been coyotes here.

The woodchuck hunting is gone!

I used to get hundreds of chucks on a good year. I have the time and gear to hunt them now and they are gone!

I get a coyote once in a while now. Other small game is gone. The deer are way down where I hunt in CT also. I am not sure if that is due to coyotes.

quote:

There will, however, come a time when the predator-prey balance is met because the predator runs out of food.

That, is a fallacy. predators do not run out of food, especially coyotes. When one food source gets low or disappears they simply move to another.

Do coyotes need to be completely eradicated from the environment, No. Can and do coyotes overpopulate some areas. Yes.

Will humans ever completely wipe out coyotes, No. when the last human lays down to die, there will be a coyote setting there somewhere watching it happen.

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:


That's a very reasonable answer. However, i have not seen any scientific information which indicates that coyote populations are in fact out of control thus need to be reduced.

Scientific information has its place, and some people need to see things in numbers to understand significance.

However, go to a ranching community and they will tell you whether or not coyotes are a problem in their area. No numbers or science needed, they know the land and they know the issues.

Predator hunters will never even so much as put a dent in a coyote population. They wreak havoc on pronghorn fawns. Here in Idaho, we don't have the greatest pronghorn heard, so it helps to keep the yotes off the fawns after birth.

This is your first post?

You have obviously not done very much research.

After much concideration and many hours of analysis I have come up with my 1 most important reason to hunt coyotes: It's a blast. A very fun pastime

Simplest answer I could come up with...Why not shoot coyotes???

They're legal game just like deer, elk, moose etc etc.

And where I live, one bad winter like last year (too much snow), the coyotes killed A LOT of deer.

Simplest way to fix that...blast 'em!

Why do we feel the need to justify what we do to anyone? I think it's rude to question us on why we do anything. I owe you nothing. I never question a friend why he plays softball or why his wife runs marathons. It always comes down to coyotes or prarie dogs. You never see a thread like this on African hunting. "Why would you want to kill a poor little cape buffalo?".
My oldest daughter is a full blown bunny hugger, member of the Sierra Club and and avid mountain climber. She would NEVER question me on why I hunt even if she thinks its wrong. I don't question her on why she climbs a mountain or rafts white water.
It reaaly looks like you want an argument here. I do what I do, if you don't like it you ca KMA.

I usually try to give people a chance when they question my desire to hunt and explain to them why hunting is a good thing for the game and for the hunter. After that, if they persist in their misguided opinions, they can piss off.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I usually try to give people a chance when they question my desire to hunt and explain to them why hunting is a good thing for the game and for the hunter. After that, if they persist in their misguided opinions, they can piss off.

Perhaps I jumped the gun, maybe I'm just old and grumpy but it looks to me like we're being blind sided here. 1st post ever on AR is questioning why we kill an animal. 2nd post ever is refruting the explaination he or she was given. I joined AR to learn all I could about hunting, reloading, rifles etc. Its a place where people have a common belief in what we do. Sure we have our differences but we are a community. It just seems that this thread is trying to pick apart the fabric of what and why we do as we do.
I'm sorry if I seem too harsh but I refuse to explain my passion for hunting. I'll leave with this question: Have you ever converted someone who has disdane for your hunting? I don't think you ever will because their minds are already made up.

quote:

I'm sorry if I seem too harsh but I refuse to explain my passion for hunting. I'll leave with this question: Have you ever converted someone who has disdane for your hunting? I don't think you ever will because their minds are already made up.

Eh Mike - you seem to have taken great offense to the original post. I have no disdain for your hunting at all. Just questioning whether there is any good reason for killing the coyotes indiscriminately. You show insecurity and ignorance with your answer...many have answered intelligently. Not you.

Lee?

You brought this on. Your first post on a hunting forum was why anyone hunts coyotes. You said you could not find any reason. Obviously you have not looked very hard or done any research. I am guessing you live in a big city and don't get out much. You did not bother to list your location when your registered either. These types of posts/threads just get many of us thinking "Troll".

Here is a sample for you:

Cattle Predation
"According to a survey by the National Agricultural Statistics Service (1992), calf losses in Texas to predators during 1991 totaled 23,400 head. This represents an estimated $7.84 million loss to Texas producers. Predators accounted for 106,400 head of cattle and calves lost in the United States during 1991. Texas lost 26,400 head of cattle and calves to all predators accounting for an estimated value of $9.865 million. The value of the 17,200 cattle and calves lost in Texas to coyotes alone was $6.102 million (NASS 1992, Texas ADC Service 1993)."

There are also many impact studies on sheep, deer, antelope, etc. FYI-It is estimated that coyotes in the west kill 25% of the whitetail fawns each year for instance.

This is just a sample of data from the east:

"Sheep/Lamb Losses
Predation is the leading cause of sheep and lamb mortality. Coyote depredations account for 60.7% of the total sheep/lamb losses to predators (NASS 1999). Coyote depredation of sheep/lambs in New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, and Ohio markedly increased between 1990 and 1999. Between 1990 and 1999, the percent inventory loss to coyote depredations of sheep/lambs in New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, and Ohio nearly doubled, increasing from 0.53% of the inventory in 1990 to 0.97% of the inventory in 1999. In 1999, these losses were valued at $404,948. Sheep/lamb losses in the remaining southern/eastern states were valued at $205,496, amounting to a total sheep/lamb loss in the eastern United States of $610,444. According to NASS (1991-2000) inventories of sheep and lambs in these eastern states declined during the 1990s. The sheep inventory in the New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio region, declined 14% faster than the reduction in sheep numbers nationwide (50% vs. 36%).

Coyotes typically prey more heavily on lambs than adult sheep. Coyote depredations on lambs were not uniformly distributed throughout New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, and Ohio. New York and Pennsylvania were impacted the least with 0.1%, 0.6%, and 0.8% loss of the annual lamb crop during 1990, 1994, and 1999, respectively. In Virginia, West Virginia and Ohio, coyote depredations accounted for 1.5% to 1.9% loss of the annual lamb crop between 1990 and 1999. A number of factors could have contributed to the relatively greater severity of coyote depredation in these states. These factors include coyote population densities, relative lower abundance of natural prey, differences in flock size, terrain, and livestock management. During the 1990s, New York and Pennsylvania flock sizes were typically smaller (2% to 25%) than flocks in Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia. In Pennsylvania, it has been noted anecdotally that large flocks appear to suffer more coyote depredations than smaller, more intensively managed flocks (J. Suckow, USDA-APHIS-WS, personal communication). It is quite typical in Virginia and West Virginia to graze sheep on semi-isolated mountain pastures without human or animal guardians. Regardless, coyote depredations on lambs in New York and Pennsylvania have increased 88% between 1990 and 1999. This is a fourfold increase compared to the 21% increase in lamb losses in Virginia, West Virginia, and Ohio during the same period. This greater rate of loss is the motivation behind current attempts to establish an IWDM program in Pennsylvania (J. Suckow, USDA–APHIS–WS, personal communication).

Cattle/Calf Losses
Cattle losses to coyotes are generally restricted to calves during the first several months of life. Occasionally, adult cows also are killed when movements are restricted (e.g., when giving birth). Nonetheless, NASS (1999) estimates that coyotes account for 70.1% of cattle losses to predation. The inventory of cattle and calves in the eastern United States remained steady during the 1990s. During this period, however, there was an overall rise in both the number of cattle/calves killed by coyotes and the percent of the inventory those depredations represent in the eastern United States. Between 1991 and 2000, the percent inventory loss of cattle/calves in the southern/eastern United States increased from 0.05% in 1991 to 0.11% in 2000. In 2000, these losses were valued at $10,101,000.

The increase in coyote depredations on cattle in the eastern United States correlates with coyote range expansion and population growth during the past 20 years. The southern front of coyote range expansion swept across the southeastern states during the 1960s (Parker, 1995). This front then expanded further north and east through Tennessee and Kentucky during the 1970s and 1980s. Finally, during the late 1980s and early 1990s, coyotes colonized Virginia, West Virginia and the Carolinas. Coastal areas in the mid–Atlantic region have only recently seen large numbers of coyotes. Once established, coyote populations have increased. For example, coyote harvest data in Mississippi, increased from 1,200 in 1980 to 40,000 in 1989 (Bourne, 1991). Harvest of coyotes by hunters and trappers in Pennsylvania and Virginia suggests exponential growth in coyote populations in these states during the 1980s and 1990s (Wit-mer and Hayden, 1992; Wright et al., 1999). These increases in coyote populations correlate with the increase in cattle/calf depredation reported by NASS. By 1991, cattle/calf depredations by coyotes in the southeast United States were already equivalent to the national average. These losses continued to increase dramatically during the 1990s, exceeding the national average by 2000. In the mid-Atlantic region, cattle/calf depredation increased from almost immeasurable numbers to equal the national average between 1991 and 2000, reflecting the increase of coyote populations in this sub-region during the 1990s. Cattle/calf losses in the New England states were minimal.

Within the mid–Atlantic region, the relationship among coyote range expansion, coyote population growth, and cattle depredation is further illustrated. As coyote numbers increased within central Appalachia, coyote depredations increased three–fold. Measurable levels of coyote depredations on cattle/calves in the Carolinas were not detected until the NASS survey in 2000 and the coastal states of New Jersey, Maryland and Delaware have yet to experience noticeably increased levels of coyote depredation. There are anecdotal reports in the western United States that coyote depredation on cattle is increasing as sheep numbers decline (sheep being relatively preferred prey); the Utah WS program recorded a 700-percent increase in requests for protection from cattle producers between 1998 and 2001 (M. Bodenchuk, USDA-APHIS-WS, personal communication). Evaluation of depredation by coyotes on cattle in the eastern United States is complicated by the possibility the eastern coyote has developed behavioral and morphological modifications that enhance its ability to successfully prey on larger animals (Parker, 1995).

The impact of coyotes on livestock in the eastern United States is also reflected in the number of requests for assistance WS Eastern Region receives annually from the public. The number of technical assistance projects and the number of coyotes removed by WS Eastern Region programs increased during the 1990s. During 2000, WS Eastern Region programs received 874 requests from the public for technical assistance over coyote damage. The number of coyotes removed by WS Eastern Region programs increased from 72 in 1991 to 585 in 2000. This increased take of coyotes is reflective of both increased program field efforts and increases in coyote populations in the East. These two parameters further illustrate the increasing concern by the public over coyote depredations and need for assistance."

quote:

You brought this on. Your first post on a hunting forum was why anyone hunts coyotes. You said you could not find any reason. Obviously you have not looked very hard or done any research.

An excellent response Bob, and pretty much answers my original post. I don't live in a large city and don't have an anti-hunting agenda. Grew up in small midwest town. Was an avid groundhog hunter in my youth and totally did and do understand the crop damage they do. Neither my original post nor any subsequent posts implied that i could not see any reason for coyote hunting. Recall that i asked whether they might help in reducing deer over-population which really has become a problem in some areas. I just was not educated on the predation issues you have highlighted so well. It appears that a few on this forum are threatened by a question like this, so i will refrain from such inquiries in future. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:

quote:

I'm sorry if I seem too harsh but I refuse to explain my passion for hunting. I'll leave with this question: Have you ever converted someone who has disdane for your hunting? I don't think you ever will because their minds are already made up.

Eh Mike - you seem to have taken great offense to the original post. I have no disdain for your hunting at all. Just questioning whether there is any good reason for killing the coyotes indiscriminately. You show insecurity and ignorance with your answer...many have answered intelligently. Not you.

Well, if you really wanted reasons it looks like Bob gave you a few. I hope that clears it up for you. Maybe you can tell us a little about youself, but use little words so I can understand them please.

Bob roger

quote:

It appears that a few on this forum are threatened by a question like this, so i will refrain from such inquiries in future. Thanks.

Don't think anyone feels threatened, some folks however get tired of being expected to justify why they feel the way they feel. Shooting coyotes on sight is simply the way some of us were taught.

If you are a hunter and are going to participate on this site, not asking questions simply because people are going to respond in their own words offends you, then maybe you need to re-evaluate participating on this or any other site.

People are going to express their opinions, and right/wrong/indifferent, they are entitled to those opinions.

Why would you demand emperical justification for the killing of coyotes?

Do you consider scientific data before downing a soda? Before eating a slice of pizza?

Or is it just the killing of a ubiquitous predator that you choose to question on scientific basis?

If you are uncomfortable with predator killing your posts in this sub-forum can only be trolling or harassment.

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:
That's a very reasonable answer. However, i have not seen any scientific information which indicates that coyote populations are in fact out of control thus need to be reduced.

A large coyote population is a danger to game bird,deer, livestock, and people to some extent. If you've never seen a couple coyotes pulling a calf from it's mother, you're lucky.

While reducing the numbers of coyotes, I also made beer and gas money back when their fur was worth something.

quote:

Originally posted by lee243:
That's a very reasonable answer. However, i have not seen any scientific information which indicates that coyote populations are in fact out of control thus need to be reduced.

That sentence is a challenge to morally justify the fact. Most people react to being challenged about their integrity or morality. So you got LOT of feedback.

Second, most people that kill coyotes are dealing with a local population impacting their livelyhood or game, or are making some part of their living from the fur so there wouldn't be a general scientific consensus and I think you knew that before you issued the challenge.

If you have a problem with killing coyotes you ought to nut-up and say so instead of hiding behind literary devices like the above.

Bob, I relly enjoyed the stats you have provided concerning the damage done by coyotes. It's interesting to see how the losses increase as the coyote population moves eastward.
Here in eastern Co. I really don't see a lot of calves lost to coyotes but let me explain why I think that is so. Most calves are born in the late winter. Calving starts in late Feb. or march. The ranchers babysit these cows constantly because of the cold weather. It's not uncommon for these ranchers to spend most of the night looking at cows that are close to calving. I think this also keeps the coyotes off the calves. Once a cow is up and her calf is dried off and up sucking they can defend themselves pretty well. This is pure management on the ranchers part. I've never been involved with ranching south of the Red river so I'm sure the management style is different down south. Driving pastures looking for heifers that are ready to calve may be impractical. Any time the rancher isn't close to the cow when calving the chance of losing the calf is increased. I'm sure that the management style changes from region to region across the US, Geography dictates it.
What I have noticed in eastern Co. is the loss of the Prarie Chicken, the Roadrunner, the Horned lizard. The state Game and Fish have been trying to reintroduce the Prarie Chicken with little luck. I think its because of the numbers of coyotes in the area. I used to see Roadrunners often when I was horseback but have only seen a few in the last several years. Coyotes compete with the hawks and Eagles for food and Both birds are far more fragile in the ecological system than a coyote. More coyotes, less birds of prey.
Mange has run through the coyotes in this area lastyear, At least 1/2 of the yotes we killed had a lot of hair missing. We shot a couple last winter that were darn near bald and the temp. was way below 0 and concidered that we were doing them a favor. Freezing to death isn't an easy way to go.
These are only personal observation from 40+ years of living in this area. I don't have any scientific data to back me up.

they enjoy sheep meat here in Idaho. Lambing time is a nightmare.

I'm sure glad that there are people here who are better with words than me.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
they enjoy sheep meat here in Idaho. Lambing time is a nightmare.

Once upon a time the sheep herders on the Edwards Plateau (Texas Hill Country wool producing area) had pretty much eliminated them from the area. Lasted close to 100 yrs due vigilance and effort. Then ranches started breaking up or being sold whole to the well-to-do city folk, most of whom were more interested in "watching nature" and had no need for a farming income.

As a result those first places became oasises for coyote populations and pretty soon they (the coyotes) were foraging for sheep on neighboring ranches. Today they are a real problem for the people still making their living with sheep.

I don't think there was a good answer for that. People have a right to do what they wish with private property but it is an interesting example of the resiliance of coyote populations and how fast they can capitalize on the slightest reduction in pressure to become an issue again.

I love calling and shooting coyotes. But having said that, if I was a farmer/rancher I probably wouldn't allow coyote hunting on my land. They keep deer populations down, eat mice and gophers like they are going out of style. If I was an acerage owner with cute fuzzy little pets or was too dumb to fence in my chickens I'd want the coyotes shot.

quote:

But having said that, if I was a farmer/rancher I probably wouldn't allow coyote hunting on my land.

Yes, and the major word there is IF. Given the choice between a deer an a calf/goat/sheep/chicken/dog/cat, the deer is going to be last on the menu. Also, under normal circumstances coyotes take down very few adult deer, but they will kill and eat every fawn they come across.

My bet is that if you were a land owner, you would soon change your altruistic feelings toward coyotes.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
they enjoy sheep meat here in Idaho. Lambing time is a nightmare.

I don't know how the sheep ranchers do it. They really have their work cut out for them. Even a full grown ewe is no match for a coyote. Do the ranchers use a lot of guard dogs and if so is that effective? I'm sure a coyote hunter is a welcome sight at a sheep camp but there is no way we can make a dent in the population. What other means of coyote control do they use in Idaho?

The goat/sheep folks here rely heavily on the ADC Hunter/Trappers and aerial gunning.

Bob, we just need more Korean communities on the plateau...

I'm making a personal effort this year to cook up some coyote to see for myself.

FWIW, every year I get deer sausage made and every year my wife gives it all way. We're making our own at the lease this year and I think her "friends" ought to get a special treat this season.

Yea coyotes do play hell on fawns and a rancher should be in favour of this. Keeps the deer population down and avoids having to bring hunters onto your land to hunt the deer. Around here coyotes don't kill very many calves and we don't condone sheep herders. So I stand by my opinion

There is sure a lot of coyote BS here.
I doubt most of the city boys that shoot coyotes know what they prey on.

Watch for the grey furry cigars. Coyotes eat mostly mice.


Then there are always the ranchers that want the entire planet sterilized except for the livestock they produce.

quote:

Watch for the grey furry cigars. Coyotes eat mostly mice.

So that is what explains all the piles of coyote crap I see with deer hair and pig hair and all sorts of other stuff in it, it ain't coyotes crap it belongs to something else.

I am sure glad you straightened that out for us.