After going out and shooting ground squirrels again on Sunday, while being with a group of guys who came down from Seattle...

I got to compare my hits with a 223 with a few of the hits that one of their guys did with a 17 HMR...

Even as I have gotted excited about a 17 Fireball, after seeing the results of the 223 vs what a 17 cal can do, I am quickly loosing my interest..

we varmint shooters, always like to try NEW stuff and concepts out...however, even when a 223 is loaded to the same velocity as a 17 HMR, a hit with a 55 grain 22 caliber bullet, vs a hit with a 17gr 17 cal bullet, there is no comparison!

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2093118688

warning, kinda gory but real world shots..
Taken in Klamath County Oregon..

cheers
seafire

Seafire:

I will agree with you regarding the reduced "explosive" effects of the 17's vs the 22 center fires.

The 17HMR has it's place, for close work, quiet and cheap shooting. In my view, it's like the 22 Hornet without the reloading hassles. I'll qualify that by saying it's not nearly as versatile as the Hornet, but it's still a useful caliber/platform for prairie dogs and ground squirrels.

The rimfire 17 HMR 17 Gr bullet has a muzzle velocity of 2550 ft/sec while a 50 Gr bullet can be reloaded to 3,300 ft/sec muzzle velocity from a 223 Rem rifle.. The 223 Rem shoots a bullet faster and flatter . The new center fire Rem 17 Fireball fires a 20 Gr bullet at 4,000 ft/sec muzzle velocity. I use the 17 HM2 rifle 17 Gr bullet MV 2100 ft/sec for shots out to about 80 Yds and the 17 HMR rifle for shots out to about 150 Yds. Past 150 Yds I switch to a 221 Fireball 40 Gr bullet and 204 Ruger 32 Gr bullet for prairie dog shooting past 150 Yds. I plan on getting a 17 Fireball to see what it will do. Each rifle round has its limits but for spring prairie dog pup shooting I use the 17 Rimfires. My 204 Ruger has replaced the 223 Rem for most of my prairie dog shooting.

Seafire, Why am I not surprised....


Area of a circle = .....

The MV of the 223 load that was being used was about 2600 fps... close to the 17 HMR's advertised MV of 2550...

My point being...the addiction of red mist, just can't be replaced by the efficiency and merits of the 17 HMR or I am wondering the 17 bore in general...like even 17 Fireball and 17 Rem...

I can't give up the 'splat' effect for the quietness etc of the 17s...I also get addicted to those shots when you hit bone in the pelvis and the squirrel does a 5 or 6 foot summersault in the air before hitting the ground...

Those head shots where they flop around like a fish out of water is also pretty addictive.. but even a 22 Long Rifle will do that on them...

Seafire, you/we may be on thin ice here!

It is quite impolite to quote oneself, so if I may interject a sore point from this forum...

My thread on .17 vs .22 centerfires

It is often the observed performance which sells those calibers that later become icons of the hunting fields. Simply printing stories and data from the chronograph wil not definatively answer what a hunters eye can tell him. John "Pondoro" Taylor's experiences on a grander scale would be my point of reference. Adding my own "experience," I feel that the actual terminal performance of bullet from whatever firearm is a major factor in the apparent success of the shot on game. Think back to the success of the .243 Win versus the failure of the 6mm Remington. Twist rate and bullet performance caused that upset.

I'll stay with that sage advice to: "Use enough gun."

.204 Ruger

I hear ya. Its hard to beat the .223... loaded down or full speed. Same with the .221 fireball. They are both so practical to boot. As far as comparing the hmr to a centerfire. Ther is no comparison imo also, but for a lazy man at short range the hmr is a keeper in my book. It's purdy impressive out to 50 yds too. Most the time after that you don't get the desired effect some are looking for...heheheheh. You can hit them way farther than that, but I like bigger guns for longer work.
I'm still excited about the 17 fireball. That .17gr bullit at 4000fps ought to splatter um good. I'm curious to hear what you guys with the experience have to say about the difference (distructive wise) between say a 40gr at 3700fps, and a .17 at 4000....or a 50gr .223 at 3300 and a .17 at 4000 on pd size critters.
I think the .17hmr really has its place. I'm not at all impressed at the job it does on anything bigger than gophers, and ground squirrels.

The 17HMR and the .17 centerfires have NOTHING in common when it comes to terminal effect.
I guarantee i can get my .17 remington to do more damage on squirrel sized vermin than any .223 would ever think of doing.
I've owned .223's,.22-250, and the .17 rem.
and only the .22-250 can achieve or exceed the explosiveness of the .17rem on these size critters.
the .17 fireball looks like the most ultimate ground squirrel round on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by 17rem:
The 17HMR and the .17 centerfires have NOTHING in common when it comes to terminal effect.
I guarantee i can get my .17 remington to do more damage on squirrel sized vermin than any .223 would ever think of doing.
I've owned .223's,.22-250, and the .17 rem.
and only the .22-250 can achieve or exceed the explosiveness of the .17rem on these size critters.
the .17 fireball looks like the most ultimate ground squirrel round on the planet.

While I am not in agreement that the 17 Rem can do more damage than ANY 223 load, I sure would be interested in seeing some pics of the explosive results from a 17 Rem...

I too, am looking for the 17 Fireball being available locally here... I have a Ruger in 223 that is in need of a new barrel...

On the link posted above, there is a pic of about a dozen squirrels.. some hit directly in the chin and it opened them up half way to their nuts! So I really question will a 17 Rem do that... however, I am totally open to being pleasantly proven wrong!

I am not so down on the bore diameter in 17, as much as I am not confident in there being that many explosive bullets available on the market for the bore size...

I am really thinking that a 17 Fireball or a 17 K Hornet might be the ultimate case size for the bore.. or a 17 Bee...

I am just in need of seeing what I have seen the 223 bore do...

For the same reason that the 204 hasn't fired me up that much.. I picked up some 204 bore Hornady V Maxs.. and then comparing them to the same 40 grainer size in 22 caliber.. I didn't see where a 204 gave me anything that I couldn't accomplish with a 223 and a 40 grain bullet...

I can get a 40 grainer in 223 running out to 3900 to 4000 fps, and the extra 100 to 200 fps in the 204, just doesn't sell me on it will accomplish anything more or better...

but like ALL Varminters.. the door is ALWAYS OPEN for a better idea...

The 223 is the 30-06 of varmints.

Just picked up a new 17 fireball in the varmint version. I will be happy to report the results on rock chucks when they come out to be harvested.

quote:

Originally posted by dudley do right:
Just picked up a new 17 fireball in the varmint version. I will be happy to report the results on rock chucks when they come out to be harvested.

I will enthusiastically be waiting for that report!

A 20gr V-max out of my .17 remington spins at 340,000 rpm! 1-9 twist at 4250fps.
It would do more to a ground quirrel than you see in those .223 photo's.

quote:

Originally posted by N. S. Sherlock:
The 223 is the 30-06 of varmints.

Totally agree.

Don

I've been very unimpressed w/ the .17HMR. Bout the only thing it excells at is shooting grackle birds arnd the house. Lots are crawlers when I use it for rabbits. The .17 Rem and .223 are quite similar. Neither is in the class of the .22-250. M.

Without wanting to question or insult your shooting, where are you hitting them and with what projectile if results arent anything like with .22-250?

I have used all rounds and some others and not had that experience. .223 isnt that far behind .22-250 and in my opinion the major advantage for varminting is the 250 has a slightly longer effective range.

.17 Rem is similar to .223 and with all 3 I have had few crawlers as you called them.

Even on small game it is still important to hit the vital zones, heart/lung, neck or top of head.

Picking a varmint bullet that will fragment on that size animal is probably the key to red mist...

quote:

Originally posted by giladad1:
I've been very unimpressed w/ the .17HMR. Bout the only thing it excells at is shooting grackle birds arnd the house. Lots are crawlers when I use it for rabbits. The .17 Rem and .223 are quite similar. Neither is in the class of the .22-250. M.

My 223 vs 22-250 spiel:

quote:

Remember AssClown?
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tp.../331108533#331108533
He disappeared from AR in Sept 2005, but not before divulging some info previously not available to the gun culture.
With Von Misses calculations, he determined that for 806 Tempered C26000 cartridge brass:
1) A Mauser case head [1892 7x57 begat 22-250] would fail at 76,577 psi internal pressure, ~65ksi to the brass.
2) A .223 case head would fail at 86,427 psi internal chamber pressure [he made this calculation at my request], ~ 65 ksi to the brass.

Entering that into Quickload for a 26" barrel and asking for the optimum powder at those pressures and bullets we get:

75 gr Amax 22-250, 38.5 gr 760, 3,584 fps
75 gr Amax .223, 26.9 gr H335, 3,256 fps
--------------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 132 yards

50 gr. Vmax: 22-250, 39.5 gr. 748, 4,186 fps
50 gr. Vmax .223, 23.7 gr. 5744, 3861 fps
-----------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 61 yards

40 gr. Vmax 22-250, 38.5 gr. H322, 4,513 fps
40 gr. Vmax .223, 25.9 gr. W296, 4, 268 fps
-----------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 35 yards

33 gr. Vmax 22-250 39.6 gr. H322, 4,848 fps
33 gr. Vmax .223, 27.8 gr. W296, 4623 fps
-------------------------------------
difference ~ ~ 25 yards

The post script would be that if someone makes fast twist 22-250 and shoots very long bullets, they may get some advantage for some kind of shooting, but the practial aspect is that the .223 must be downloaded to keep from heating and fouling the barrel.

I shoot those 33 gr Vmax at 3600 fps, even with a moly coat, that is as fast as is practical.


from this page of the Calhoon site:
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/19caliber.php

quote:

The 19 BADGER provides a comfortable 300 yard range and velocities of 3750 with a 27gr bullet and 3550 with the 32gr. (The 4200+ ft/sec gurus, those geniuses behind the 17 Remington and .204 Ruger, would have you think otherwise, but attempts to achieve excessive velocities cause nothing but trouble for varminters!)

Once you own a 19 BADGER, "You'll be leavin' your other rifles in the safe !"

Time out here for culture in the form of poetry, penned by someone who, for obvious literary reasons, wishes to remain anonymous:

"While the .204 Rugers are scrubbin' out the blue,
The 19 BADGER keeps shootin' deadly and true!"

What does Calhoon mean by "scrubbin'"?
They mean that bullets that fast foul the bore wreck accuracy until a painful Copper cleaning process has been completed.

The 204 has better range, excellent launch and splatter factors and fouling is no different than any of my other centerfires.

My ground squirrel shooting buddy uses a custom rem 17 and I shoot a 223 , between the two of us we killed over 4000 ground squirrels in one year. I shoot 50gr Ballistic tips and I think he shoots the 25gr Vmax . There was no real difference between the two that I could ever tell as far as devistation was concerned both did a good job of turning them inside out.
He did shoot a jackrabbit with that 17 that was the brutal. It turned that jack inside out , almost complete devistation . I never did that with my 223.
My 223 has a 26 inch tube shooting those 50 grainers around 3650 from the muzzle

Jack Rabbits are like balloons.. If you hit one, it will explode like a balloon..
I have blown up quite a few jackrabbits..with the 223, even with FMJs...

I love my HMR`s.

If you are after wild red mist hits them a c/f is the way to go but for pure control of vermin that you just want dead the HMR is hard to beat. We use it on rabbits to 175m with very few runners.

The farmers just want them gone and the HMR really shines for this. With a sound moderator you can often take several in a group before the others get spooked.

Of course if we are out after bigger prey (fox) with a c/f got to say the 22/250 and the .20 Tac give spectacular hits on rabbits.

My brother took a rabbit with his 204 at maybe 120m at the weekend. When we got up to it the light (we were shooting at night) showed a metre long arc of bits in the grass behind it.

The only varmints I have ben shooting are prairie dogs. This week I got a Remington bolt action Mdl 700 CDL 24 inch fluted barrel Stainless Limited Edition 17 Fireball rifle. When ever I can get some brass, dies ,and reloading data I ll try it out. So far I have shot prairie dogs with the 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 22 LR, 22 WMR, 22 Hornet, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250, 220 Swift and a few larger bore rifles. Prairie dogs get muzzle blast smart so in the spring I start out with the 17 HM2 on the pups and switch to more powerfull rifles as needed. By late fall when I was shooting a 243 Win Varmint rifle I have seen prairie dogs 400 Yds away run into their holes when they heard the muzzle blast. Every rifle round has its limits but matching the rifle round to the hunting conditions and then they are all fine. There is no need to VS any round.

I know its expensive and tricky to get a silencer in USA but IMHO worth the effort.

If you get one for a .22 centrefire you can use the same on your .17's.

Everyone who hasnt used one goes on about the sonic crack but in my experience thats not so important. The sound tracks with and behind the bullet and the animals you are shooting at cant tell where it originated.

We often shoot several of whatever we are shooting at in a group while the remaining ones try and work out what is happening.

Once you have used one you wont shoot any other way!

I recently shot ground squirrels with my 17M4 Cooper, the wildcat version of the new 17 Fireball. What a HOOT! The terrain where we were gave us shots out to 340 yards, and I'm confidendt the 17M4 would be a solid 400 yard gun. At 340 yards nothing was safe! Winds were 0 to 20mph and I never held more than half a squirrel of wind. 20 Grain Vmax, 20.4 grains of H335, Rem 7.5 for 4180fps.
The BIG difference betwee the 17 centerfires and the 223 is trajectory and recoil. The 17s shoot like lasers and have rimfire recoil. I've shot squirells with 17 Ack Hornet, 17M4, 17Rem, 223, 22-250, 22-250 Ackley and 243. The bigger 22s and 6mms do have much better splatter factor
but seeing all your hits in the scope and lack of muzzle blast make the 17s more fun to me.
The 17Ack Hornet is perfect out to 250 yards and the 17M4 for anything inside of 400 yards is my vote!

quote:

Originally posted by SWD:
I recently shot ground squirrels with my 17M4 Cooper, the wildcat version of the new 17 Fireball. What a HOOT! The terrain where we were gave us shots out to 340 yards, and I'm confidendt the 17M4 would be a solid 400 yard gun. At 340 yards nothing was safe! Winds were 0 to 20mph and I never held more than half a squirrel of wind. 20 Grain Vmax, 20.4 grains of H335, Rem 7.5 for 4180fps.
The BIG difference betwee the 17 centerfires and the 223 is trajectory and recoil. The 17s shoot like lasers and have rimfire recoil. I've shot squirells with 17 Ack Hornet, 17M4, 17Rem, 223, 22-250, 22-250 Ackley and 243. The bigger 22s and 6mms do have much better splatter factor
but seeing all your hits in the scope and lack of muzzle blast make the 17s more fun to me.
The 17Ack Hornet is perfect out to 250 yards and the 17M4 for anything inside of 400 yards is my vote!

Thanks SWD..

This is the kind of reports I wanna hear!
Since you only have 34 posts, ya must be sorta new.. So Welcome to the Forums!

Cheers
seafire

Kiwi - what sort of mods do you use? I`ve tried loads and have now settled on the PES which is great, if a bit heavy. Tried an ASE Utra a while back which was very good to.

Nute, I use a local brand MAE which stands for McColl Arms and Engineering. They dont have a website.

If my memory is correct the PES is actually an NZ design and manufacture and I think Mr Percy sold out to McColl. I am only guessing here!

On HM2 I am using an MAE suppressor which is sold in 1 model for .17, .204 and .22.

Interesting that the bore size is 7mm or .284" which in my opinion is huge even for a .22 but it seems to work ok.

Same company makes a larger model which is for .223 and that will go on my .204 wildcat project. They are all stainless steel.

Reason I suggested 1 silencer of a rating for .223 is the guys in USA have to license each silencer and it costs them about $200 for the "stamp." Cheaper for them to have only 1 silencer and swap it around different guns.

Over here we just buy them, no license or anything.

Some other NZ models can be seen at www.highcountrysport.co.nz and www.gunworks.co.nz

I usually shorten the barrel so the guns overall length isnt as great.

I have a couple of home made aluminium silencers on .22rf.

For rimfire my cousin makes his own out of washers and pvc drain pipe, slips them over the barrel and secures them with a jubilee clip. They work fine and cost him less than $10 each!

PES are from NZ, and damn good they are to. I usualy ask for the blast baffle to be matched to the bore size so you get max sound attenuation.

I like the PES because you can literaly drive over them and they are virtualy indestructable.

If I ever did move to the US Id still pay the tax as once youve used them you`ll never go back.