The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Varmint Hunting 17 HMR or 17 Mach 2Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I've been thinking of buying a new rifle for shooting prairie dogs in the panhandle of Oklahoma. I can't decided to go with the HMR or the Mach 2. I've traditionally used a 22-250 but because of the noise this sucker makes and my buddies not wanting to hang around when shooting it, I've decided to get another rifle. Most of my buddies shoot HMRs, if I needed to I could always bum ammo off them, but which would you suggest is the best for prairie dogs? Thanks, graybird | ||
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Between those two, I would pick the HMR. You will probably be disappointed with the performance (or lack of) with the M2. JMHO. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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The 17 HMR is a 180 Yd prairie dog(PD) rifle while the 17 HM2 is good out to 100 Yds. I,m getting 2700 FPS with the Hornady 17 Gr, V-MAX bullet from a Cooper LVT rifle . The same 17 Gr.bullet from my CZ Varmint rifle has a muzzle velocity of 2050 FPS.Last year I shot over 2000 PDs ,most with the 17 HMR. This week I went out one day with the 17 HM2 and shot 34 PD pups.Shot taken were between 25 and 75 Yds with good splatter factor.You could take a look at www.rimfirecentral.com and go to 17 HM2 to get more info. tuck2 | |||
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Graybird: I agree with Tuck 2 and Flippy - in that the 17 HMR would certainly be prefferable for the Prairie Doggin at the further distances. I have killed quite a few Prairie Dogs with my Ruger 77/17 V/T in 17 HMR. I have lasered many of the kills out to 204 yards. I just got done with a six day Varmint Safari where myself and my two friends killed (laser ranged) Ground Squirrels out to 244 yards with our various 17 HMR's (two CZ's and my Ruger). I am sure with an upper body hit on Prairie Dogs they would be humanely dispatched at 225 yards. My friends had scopes of 6.5x20 and 4.5x14 on their respective 17 HMR Varminters and I have a Weaver KT15 (15 power) on my Ruger. My point here being use plenty of scope power on your 17 HMR as this will aid your striking the kill zone more often and at longer ranges. I have a friend from Conneticut that uses a Volqhuartsen 10/22 style 17 HMR with a Leupold 8.5x25x50mm scope! This is one sweet rig and he was killing Varmints at 200 yards with it pretty consistently - and QUICKLY! Anyway good luck with which ever caliber and Rifle you choose (just use plenty of scope power!). Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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Go with the 17HMR, you won't be disappointed. I've got one in a CZ and am very impressed with the effectiveness of this round. And as Varmint Guy advises, use a good scope with adequate power for the longer shots. | |||
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Graybird, you might want to read the article in June 2005 Shooting Times on the 17HMR. Very interesting reading... JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/17_hmr_0508/index2.html Join the NRA | |||
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Graybird (and Savage99), I was actually referring to the comparison on the 17HMR and the 22MAG, on pages 46-50. The on-line article is O.K. but only has some 17 info. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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I wouldn't count the M2 out completely, actually everyone should have both! The ammo is cheaper for the M2, $5-$6 a box instead of the $8-$10 for the hmr. So they both have their good points, I have 4hmrs and an M2.... http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94730 | |||
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While M2 ammo is cheaper than 17HMR ammo, premium quality hyper-velocity 22LR ammo is less than both, $5 a box retail, and if bought in quantity or on sale, it is even less. Hyper-velocity 22LR ammo has more power than the M2. (See CCI’s website, for one) I have bought quality 22Mag ammo in bricks of 250 for about the same price as the M2, ($30/250 rounds, Winchester Supreme, 32g). I have shot several M2 and 17HMR loads and just about every 22LR and 22MAG load I could find; all in proven accurate rifles. (One of my bolt 22LR’s is an Anchutz; another is an early 50’s vintage 513-S Remington.) While there is some discussion that the M2 is more accurate than the 22LR, I have not found that to be necessarily true. Both of my good 22’s, and a couple of my less expensive 22’s are just as accurate as the two M2’s we tested out to 100 yards and have more power with cheaper 22 hyper-velocity ammo. The only reason I could use to justify buying an M2 is the possibility of fewer ricochets (unproven, as far as I know, if anybody has info, I would appreciate it) and less range for lethality. The M2 would be a good choice for someone living in a relatively populated area and on smaller varmints. It’s pretty quiet to shoot. If a person is going to do most or all of their varminting inside of 150 yards on PD and house-cat sized varmints or near a populated area, the 17HMR is an OK choice also. They are pretty accurate, but, and it’s a big but, the 22MAG has more power, there is a larger variety of ammo available and the ammo is cheaper to boot. I have found a couple loads for my 22MAG that shoot as accurate as a 17HMR out to 256 yards. Layne Simpson’s article in Shooting Times this month (June 2005 pages 48-50) has more info. The on-line article (linked in a post above) is a Rick Jamison article from awhile ago. Good info, just a little dated. To again answer you original question, if I were in your position, between the 17HMR and the M2, the HMR is the clear winner. JMHO. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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[/QUOTE] Hyper-velocity 22LR ammo has more power than the M2. (See CCI’s website, for one) .[/QUOTE] Flippy that is a misleading statement. Yes the .22 chunk of lead has more "enery". But your comments seem to infer the .22LR kills just as well or better than 17M2 which I STRONGLY disagree with. The 17M2 penetrates better than .22LR and also expands. On top of this the vastly improved trajectory out to 100m allows much better bullet placement. These cals are streets apart when hunting. As for the 17M2 VS 17HMR. 17HMR = more noise and greater range. 17m2 = less noise and shots within 125m. Both are great. As for fewer ricochets. Was shooting over hard ground on weekend. The 17m2 has fewer ricochets. Was sighting in a .22 and noticed quite a few. Didn't notice any with the 17M2 but would still be very careful of backgrounds just in case. | |||
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NO COMPARISON!!! GET THE HMR!!! If the ammo makers and gun manufacturers had introduced the HM2 first, then everybody wuld be going "ga-ga" over the HM2's and then introduced the HMR and everybody an his brother would have bought them!!! But just like REMINGTON did with the SAUMs vs the RUM's.....they into'd the biggies first!!! And Remington let Winchester beat them to the market with the WSM's!!! The 17HMR is just plain phenomonal in it's accurracy from one manufacturers offerings to anothers!!(Remington 597, Marlin 17's, Savage 93's, NEF's, Anchutzs, Coopers, Volquartsen, even Ruger!!!) The 17HMR is a round deserving of good glass on top!!! Show me another rimfire chambering from all the afforementined manufacturers that can do sub .5"@ 100 and sub 1" @ 200!!!! WITH REPEATABILITY!!! They are not out there!!! Now the 17grain bullets run out of steam out there also!! So that is another reason for the quality glass on them!!! HEAD AND NECK SHOTS ONLY recommended for that little pill!!! BUT THEY ARE QUITE DOABLE WITH AMAZING REGULARITY!!! My longest measured kill on a groundhog is 236 yards....."DRT"....dead right there!!! I don't recommend the HMR for anything or anybody over 150 yards !!!! GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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Ah, here comes the snobbish heretic.  I never got excited enough about the .17s to spring for a new cleaning rod etc., but am not unmindful of the disciples out there.  I think the best thing about the .17 HMR is the accuracy they generate for the average Joe who can't afford to build into custom jobs, or create with aftermarket modifications. Kudos to Hornady for that, Ruger and Marlin too!  It raised the bar for the rest of the crowd. I suspect that some shooting ghosts from the past are smiling too. Maybe another point is that it is now established in the shooting public's mind that the .17 isn't snakebit and can actually shoot after all. Well, be that as it may, I doubt I'll rush out to buy one. I was somewhat skeptical when the .17 HMR was introduced, but damn if it didn't take off like a rocket bound for the Delta Quadrant! The HM2? There's gonna be a fizzle there I think. The problem is that it uses the same bullet as the HMR and starts out at the bottom end of the performance envelope velocity wise. Fix that and it might go, otherwise I think it's doomed. If you have to pick one over the other go with the HMR. It's a no-brainer.  If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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VELOCITY is what makes the 17HMR a usefull cartridge. Take velocity away from it,and you have 17HMR "LITE".. Which, like lite beer ,is something I would not buy even with someone else's money.. | |||
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I agree.. | |||
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FYI all readers. Both Longrange100 and sharpsman are the same user. BEWARE of trolls who talk to themselves...IP tracing is wonderful.  Don | |||
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Don, I nearly messed my pants when I saw your handle on the thread! Raced right here looking for you take on the subject only to find I'm seeing double.  I talk to myself a lot, especially when I whack me thumb with a hammer. If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Robe0280, thanks for the ricochet info. I suspected as much, due to the smaller frangible projectile. However, I have shot both the M2 and hyper-velocity 22LR ammo and hyper-velocity 22LR ammo has more power than the M2.
I wasn’t trying to mislead anybody. Hyper-velocity and super-high-velocity 22LR ammo has more power than M2 ammo. That is a fact. I wasn’t intending to infer that regular 22LR ammo has a much power as the M2. I never mentioned regular 22LR ammo. Here’s what I said:
No mention of regular 22 ammo as that would be false. If you go to CCI’s site and look at the rimfire chart you will find at the top of the 22LR heap the Velocitor, followed closely by the Quick-Shock. CCI’s usage recommendations for the Velocitor are, in this order: 7=Large Game, 4=Varmint, 3=Silhouette, 1=Plinking. CCI’s usage recommendations for the Quick-Shock are, in this order: 5=Small Game, 4=Varmint, 1=Plinking. CCI’s usage recommendations for the Mach2 are, in this order: 1=Plinking, 2=Target, 4=Varmint. No recommendations on the M2 for 5=Small Game or 6=Medium Game, not to mention 7=Large Game.
All of your statements about power ands trajectory apply to regular 22LR ammo, but some of the hyper-velocity 22LR ammo is just as accurate, and nearly as effective at short distances as some of the lower velocity 22MAG ammo or the WRF. Some hyper-velocity 22LR ammo shoots nearly as flat also. My experience and several friends experience also confer that these hyper-velocity and super-high-velocity 22’s expand pretty well out to 100 yards, and still have MORE energy than the M2. Maybe animals are tougher down under… Robe0280, I agree with you on this point also:
I don’t agree on this point:
The HMR is only OK, the M2 is less-than-OK.
I agree with DigitalDan. The problem with boosting the performance of the M2 (or the HMR for that matter) to a higher level is case construction, and platform strength. The basic rimfire case was designed back in the 1890’s and really hasn’t changed much in the last 100+ years. The ammo manufactures can’t boost the performance of this or any other new ammo past what guns based on the “older†ammo can withstand. (Like the older trap-doors and modern 45-70 ammo.) Otherwise gun manufacturers will have to design guns to handle two very different pressure levels instead of just screwing on another barrel. JMHO. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Oh, I forgot. During test firing of 4-5 different brands of M2 ammo, we found a disparaging difference in power between the different ammo manufacturers. Just like 22LR ammo. Sometimes 3-4†difference in vertical groups of different brands of ammo at 50 yards. We did not test all of the brands at 100 yards, due to limited ammo supply, but the ones we did test confirmed the 50 yard results, only more exaggerated. Aguila was one the lowest grouping at 50yards. You could hear the difference when it was fired. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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[QUOTE. FYI all readers. Both Longrange100 and sharpsman are the same user. BEWARE of trolls who talk to themselves...IP tracing is wonderful. Don[/QUOTE] Actually ,no Don, but nice try... "longrange100" used my IP address when signing in today for this simple reason..He happens to be a friend of mine down from Billings, Montana who was staying at my place a few days to shoot a few prairie dogs this week while on his way down to Texas.He arrived here on Saturday.It has been so cold and windy here today we did not go out. John happens to be a former Federal District judge and current member of the Montana state bar(semi retired) and was the "Attornie" in question (spelled incorrect on purpose,Don).He has been a lurker here for many years and decided to join AR today and raz some of the other posters here on my behalf since he is a good friend. I doubt John will need to use my home computer once he heads down the road but he apreciates the "polite welcome" you gave him here. Keep checking his ISP from now on and good luck with that "witch hunting".. | |||
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Sharpsman, there are a couple of guys at my work that have decided to join AR also. We will probably have the same problem as you and your "attornie" friend, as we share an IP also. Hopefully our opinions will be so different as to galvanize our differences to everybody. Sometimes we agree, sometimes THEY are wrong...  JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Flippy, My friend from MT is a .22mag lover like you.. We have a bet for the shoot tomorrow as to whom can do the best work past 100 yards(confirmed kills past 100 yards, actually retrieved),HE with his CZ m452 Lux .22 mag or me with my Marlin 17VS. They both group about the same at 100 yards,so we shall see. We have an impartial third party witness( a .223 shooter) and a steak dinner is on the line.. It will be interesting.. | |||
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Good luck to you both. May the best attornie- uh, man win. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Sharpsman, you will have the advantage with the 17HMR. The contest is confirmed kills past 100 yards, actually retrieved. With the power advantge of the 22MAG, unless you count red dirt, it's hard to retrieve vaporized varmints! JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Oh come now Flippy..I have shot .22mags myownself with even 34g loads...They ain't .22-250s you know.. Nice try though. I am sure there will still be intact carcasses past 100 yards from his mag.His may have larger holes,but they ALL WILL have holes in them whether hit with the 17HMR orthe.22mag. I have never seen one of those 17g Vmax slugs from my 17HMR "bounce off" of a Prairie Dog @ 200 yards.In my experience,on contact, it's the poor PD that does the bouncing  Who knows,tomorrow the PDs may have their kevlar vests on.. | |||
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Thanks Flippy Read your posts in great detail and appreciated the way you broke everything down clearly. I think the sticking point is to make it clear that I am not trying to argue the .22LR in any of its forms has less or equal power to 17M2. My argument is that the criticsm of the 17M2 is largely unwarranted and the mention of increased power in .22LR is misleading as the 17M2 is supprisingly a lot more gun than the humble .22LR even in its CCI Stinger form which I was using before I upgraded. Have found the other critiscm of the 17M2 intreguing. As far as beefing up the 17M2 that would be absurb. Why would I want it to go faster and make more noise. It does everything I ask without making anymore noise than a .22LR. For me any shots beyond 120m I can use a .223. Why would I compare the 17M2 to a 17HMR or the .22 MAG when the .223 clearly trumps them all with reduced loads. SO What?? When using the .22LR CCI Stingers or cheaper ammunition I never really took animals beyond 70m as it requires head shots beyond this to kill everytime and this is not easy to do with .22LR trajectory and wind susceptibility (for softer game Stingers do work in the chest 100m, but 'I' can't head shoot to this range reliably). Since having the 17M2 I am still governed by the wind but on calm days I can shoot to 100m with flat trajectory. Since then I have been shooting game 120m consistenly with clean kills. I have seen normal 'high velocity' .22LR bullets bounce of game at such ranges before (talking large crows). The 17 bullets penetrate on the crow test so any additional power the .22LR has the feathers absorb it so power is not as clear a indicator as performance as the previous posts infer. The .22LR throws chunks of lead the 17 M2 uses bullets. The difference is quite substantial on small animals. The .22LR may have more 'calculated power but improved accuracy trajectory and a faster twisting pointed bullet seems to penetrate and expand better beyond 70m. When they finally produce a 20gn soft nose or similar for the 17M2 then I am sure CCI will change the recomended target animals. What sold me on the 17 M2 is that I now consistently cleanly kill small game out to 120m and only have to pay a fraction more than the CCI Stingers. But the most important thing is that it isn't any lounder. | |||
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The quieter part I can surely agree to. Those M2's are quiet. They sound like an air rifle, POP! I don't particularly agree with the penetration argument, but if it works for you, great. I have had good results with the hyper-velocity 22's. I too believe rimfires (read: ALL RIMFIRES) are for vermin and like sized game, no matter what anybody else says. Even the "mighty" HMR and "obsolete" 22MAG are do not reliably kill coyote sized game. You can't always get a head shot! I use a 6MM Rem or a .223 for anything bigger than vermin or farther away than 150 yards. Even varmints deserve instant death! JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flippy: The quieter part I can surely agree to. Those M2's are quiet. They sound like an air rifle, POP! I don't particularly agree with the penetration argument, but if it works for you, great..... Even the "mighty" HMR and "obsolete" 22MAG are do not reliably kill coyote sized game. You can't always get a head shot! Well said.. Any rimfire rifle is pretty much a Coyote rifle of opportunity..not an ideal one.. To me(from killing a few hundred Tx,Ks,Ok,Wy,Co and MT 'yotes over the last 25 years),Coyote rifles BEGIN at a 22-250 and work their way up from there.. I like them to DROP in their tracks because the bastards are tough and I HATE seeing them get off without being recovered... Unless you have quick reflexes and can place a slug with the prescision of a Veterinary Surgeon,coyotes deserve more gun. | |||
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Flippy and Sharpsman That is a fair reply. As you subtlely suggested I can really only describe what I have seen. The penetration was not so much an 'argument' as an example of why I consider the gap between .22LR and 17M2 more substantial then some give credit. In the end though it is all splitting hairs as all rimfires work, targeting different neiches. Appreciated the humor in the .22Mag comment I don't see it becomming obsolete anytime soon | |||
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I agree 100%. No matter what you think of varmints and vermin, "garbage" animals, they deserve better than to suffer a slow death by rimfire poisoning. With that said, if a coyote were to stumble into adequate rimfire range while I was shooting vermin, I also would not hesitate to shoot. That was meant to be funny. If the HMR is any guage...the 22MAG is FAR from obsolete. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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I have a Cooper Model 57 in .17 HMR. This is a remarkable rifle and one which I have used on several opportunities to shoot squirrels. Not only is it aesthetically pleasing but it is extremely efficient at dispatching small game at ranges to 100+ yards! Sqirrel hits result in a solid wack by a 17 grain Ballistics tip bullet traveling at about 2500 fps from the muzzle. I would agree about the application and reserve my .223 Cooper and .260 Remington Model 70 for larger varmints at longer ranges. Shown here near Hamilton, MT:  | |||
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Nice rig. I want one in .204. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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I would opt for the HMR as I have a feeling that the mach 2 may one day go by the wayside as it does not have the speed of the hmr IMHO. Love that cooper rig we can't get them in Oz. | |||
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PC is probably right about the M2's future. Although it has a small but strong following, it also unfortunately has the same attributes as the all but dead .41 Mag did when it was first introduced. (Less power than the 44MAG, etc.) If Hornady would have introduced the M2 before the HMR, it probably would have been better for the cartridge. Otherwise it is just a M(e) (2)too. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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[Actually it may have been a better idead to introduce HMR ammo that was "reduced power to MACH levels" kind of like .22lr subsonics. | |||
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But, and it's a big but, the reduced HMR loads would have to be CHEAP. HMR ammo is not cheap. M2 ammo really isn't that cheap either. Makes my "obsolete" 22MAG look better every day... JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Yes I agree that it would have to be cheaper. | |||
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All: I appreciate all of your comments. It basically came down to this regarding the purchasing of a new rifle. #1) haven't done it in a couple years (money burning holes in my pockets) #2) buddies kept bitching about their ears ringing after the Browning 22-250 rang out to PD's they couldn't hit with the ole 17HMR's. #3) therefore, since I could reach out there farther then they and I racked up many more kills than they ; they decided to change the rules and 'outlaw' my 22-250 on our little outings.  Plus, to prove to them that I'm a better shot then they I decided to buy another rifle.So, now here is another question. Any suggestions regarding rifle brands and optics? As a little hint,I'm a Ruger and Nikon fan through and through. Thanks for all the input thus far and thanks in advance! Graybird | |||
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graybird and others!! The 17HMR RULES THE ROOST as far as rimfires go!!! 22LR....fun if all you want to do is hear a bang!!.....22MAG....a bigger bang but accurcacy SUCKS!!! (Cooper, Remingtn, Ruger,Winchester, etc.....they all suck!!!) 17HMR,......makes no difference from NEF-Anchutz.....they all shoot!!! Now top that 17HMR with a NIKON 4.5-14 Buckmaster(old model)(22 "clicks" equals 251 yards!!!) and make up yor click chart!!) Top it wiith a "new model 6x18 with Target Turrets sight in dead on at 100 yards, dial in 3MOA and it will be "DOA" at the varmint's head at 200 yards!!! 22LR, 17HM2, Don't even compare!! 22MAG...a good idea that didn't materialize!! GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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