Groundhog Devastation, you should thank God for the “good idea that didn’t materialize,†otherwise you wouldn’t have the 17HMR.
Newer doesn’t always mean better.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
graybird and others!! The 17HMR RULES THE ROOST as far as rimfires go!!! 22LR....fun if all you want to do is hear a bang!!.....22MAG....a bigger bang but accurcacy SUCKS!!! (Cooper, Remingtn, Ruger,Winchester, etc.....they all suck!!!) 17HMR,......makes no difference from NEF-Anchutz.....they all shoot!!!...GHD

Groundhog Devastation, that's not all true. All of these cartridges have their use. Maybe that is YOUR opinion on the 22MAG, but like all things, opinion is based on feeling, not necessarily fact. You should read Layne Simpson’s findings (Shooting Times, June 2005, pages 46-50).

Layne’s article reiterates what most people I know found to be true with the 22MAG. Try different ammo and you will find at least one that shoots well. GHD, if a 0.47†5-shot group average (avg. of three five shot groups) is not good enough for you, you better quit shooting. The average of all of the 22MAG ammo was 0.92â€, the average on the 17HMR was 0.71â€. Not a bad for an “obsolete†cartridge, especially when 6 of the 13 22MAG loads shot over 1.24â€.

Factor out all 22 MAG ammo with averages over 1â€, the remaining ammos average shrinks to 0.63â€, which is less than his average for the 17HMR (0.71â€). According to Layne’s accuracy chart (on page 49), 7 out of 13 22Mag loads were at least as accurate as the 17HMR ammo tested.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
.....22MAG....a bigger bang but accurcacy SUCKS!!! (Cooper, Remingtn, Ruger,Winchester, etc.....they all suck!!!)…

Really? Hmmmmm?

Granted, the 17HMR loads were more consistent than the 22MAG loads, however since most 17HMR ammo uses the same 2 or 3 bullets and/or is loaded by the same company (CCI), what else would you expect? Besides, with the 22MAG you have more than 2 bullet weights and 4 or 5 choices in ammo. Most people like having a choice. Layne says about 60 other people were also at Chuck Cornett’s Prairie Dog Conference and the majority shared his sentiments on these two cartridges.

Maybe Layne’s rifle (Volquartsen Fusion switch-barrel) is unusually accurate, but probably not more accurate than most custom jobs. My old 25MC Marlin shoots CCI Maxi-Mag +V into ¾†5-shot groups@100 yards ALL DAY LONG. Some other ammo it will not. It has a modest trigger job (a crisp 2 ½ lbs) and a 3X9 Redfield scope.
Not a custom job, just a rifle.

Is it experience?...luck?...skill?

22 WMR shooter should try Remingtons Premier 22 Win Mag ammo with the 33 Gr.Accu Tip-V bullets. 2000 ft/sec at muzzle ,164 ft-lb energy at 100 Yds. Rem Premier 17 HMR has 136 ft-lb energy at 100 Yds. The 17HMR is flatter shooting , the 22 WMR has more energy. The Rem 17 HM2 ammo has 88 ft-lb energy at 100 Yds. Per data on page 49 of Remingtons 2005 Catalog. Also the Rem 22LR ammo bullet has 92 ft-lb energy at 100 Yds. I have two 22LR rifles, one 22 WMR rifle, one 17HM2 rifle and a 17 HMR rifle. I,v shot prairie dogs with all of them -- I like them all.Each round has it,s advantages and disadvantages. At 69 years old I have noticed some folks gets their pannties in a twist trying to impress other folks that their openion is correct. Hell all the rinfires are fun....

quote:

Originally posted by tuck 2:
At 69 years old I have noticed some folks gets their pannties in a twist trying to impress other folks that their openion is correct. Hell all the rinfires are fun....

You sir are ABSOLUTELY correct!

Guys

Sorry to join in the deabate late in the day, I am a new guy to forums, so please forgive the lack of understanding of all the jargon etc, also i am over the pond in the U.K so have a different slant on things.

We don't have prarie dogs here, just wished we did, but we have plenty of rabbits and until fairly recently only had rim-fires in .22 topping out with the WMR, ammo for this has always been pricey here in the U.K, so much so that the LR held sway over all rim-fire ammo sales, some using hyper velocity rounds.

Experience with these rounds proved that accuracy was often a problem, the good old sub-sonic or solid target rounds always turned in better groups.

things have now changed and for the better, the HMR hit these shores 2 or so years back and was an instant success, giving rim-fire users the range once reserved for WMR, and beyond, and with accuracy in spades.

I really think that the sales of WMR here have been knocked for a six run since then.

We now have the short HM-2, ammo is even made here by Eley, something which is not happening with the HMR, I have tried both and indeed own a HMR, both seem to shoot well and way beyond the capabilities of the old LR rounds.

I do not seek to bring any technical argument to the fore, just a subjective thought IMO the HMR will do all the HM-2 will do but at another 50 plus yards, that kranks my handle, for me it's HMR all the way.

I imagine both will sell, but I am willing to bet coin that it is the HMR that will sell the most and in the survival stakes long term, that may make all the difference.

JT

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Tomlinson:
Guys

Sorry to join in the deabate late in the day, I am a new guy to forums, so please forgive the lack of understanding of all the jargon etc, also i am over the pond in the U.K so have a different slant on things.

We don't have prarie dogs here, just wished we did, but we have plenty of rabbits and until fairly recently only had rim-fires in .22 topping out with the WMR,
ammo for this has always been pricey here in the U.K, so much so that the LR held sway over all rim-fire ammo sales, some using hyper velocity rounds.

JT

Good to hear from you. You did not specify how much HMR or WMR ammo is in the UK.
How much is it? (relatively)

Too bad that WMR ammo is so pricey where you live, it really helps to be able to try lots of different ammo to find one that shoots well. My 25M Marlin (only has minor trigger-work, otherwise factory) shoots CCI +V (5 shot groups) into 3/4" all day long.
IF I DO MY PART...

I tried about every brand and type of ammo I could find.
Some had OK accuracy in my rifle, some had POOR accuracy.

The only problem I have with the 17HMR, is people think since it is fairly accurate out to 250 yards, then I should shoot at everything out to 250 yards. That 17g pill doesn’t have enough energy to humanely kill larger varmints at 250 yards every time.

All animals deserve better than that…

Flippy

The cost of ammo here in the U.K last time I looked was in the region of £15-£18 per 100 for .17HMR (this has come down over the last 6 months from £22 per 100.

The WMR ranges from £16-£22 per 100 when available.

People here seem to go the whole hog and if .22LR is insufficient, they tend to go straight for .222, 223 etc, fox shooting with lamps is popular here and with high power lamps ranges can stretch out to 300 plus yards. The main role of the .22 has been as a bunny rifle and with the coinstraints of the calibre (usually with sound moderator and sub-sonic ammo) ranges tends to run no further than 70 yards.

The WMR sadly is seen as neither fish nor fowl in that its performance exceeded that of the LR but was still not man enough for 200 yrds plus, hence the popularity of 22 centre fires.

Whre it seems the .17 rim-fires will score here is with rabbit shooters who have the opportunity to shoot at ranges out to 200 yards. Here raw knockdown power need not be too high (as it would need be for foxes or coyotes at that range) but the flat shooting of that melon pip sized bullet gives a real advantage.

I retain my own .22 LR and would not part with it, but I enjoy the extra ability of long range afforded by the .17HMR. Reports from other users here in the U.K indicate it to be acceptable for CAREFULLY placed shots on foxes, certainly to 125 yards, tho this seems to be with the 20 grain pill.

For my own part it is a long range bunny rifle par excellence and with moderator fitted the report is minimal.

My own rifle by the way is a CZ "American" to this I have added an Eric Brooks trigger kit (£12) and free floated the barrel as it was touching the woodwork down one side.

I have found the Remington 17 V-Max to shoot a little tighter than the same version by Hornady, although I am led to believe that they are identical loads(?)

Best group to date at 192 yards is a 4 shot string of 7/8", all well within the critical kill zone of small ground game.

I love owning all calibres of rifles, my own collection presently extending up to .500 Jeffery, but for sheer fun the .17 is the best thing to come this way along in a very long time.

JT

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Tomlinson:
Flippy

The cost of ammo here in the U.K last time I looked was in the region of £15-£18 per 100 for .17HMR (this has come down over the last 6 months from £22 per 100.

The WMR ranges from £16-£22 per 100 when available.

If my math is good, that would equate to (£12=$15-16?) $13-14 per 50 for either 17HMR or 22MAG. Ouch!

I see why there is a jump from 22LR to centerfires.

What is the average cost of say, .223 ammo, new and to reload?

Flippy

cost for ammo etc here in the U.K

Federal .223 gold medal 69 bthp £75.00 per hundred

hornady Custom 55grn VX £68.40 per 100

military surplus (55 grn) fmj FNM manufacture from £25 per 100

bullets for reloading:-

sierra
52HP match £12.50 per hundred

hornady
22 52 grain A-max £15.75 per hundred
22 - 75 grain moly coated £17.85 per hundred

Speer
52 HP match £13.75 per hundred

Cases

W-W £19.00 per 100

R-P £19.50 per 100

Lapua ££36.75 per 100


Powder

Rel 7-25 £28.87 per lb

H-4831 £32 per lb

Primers

Fed Small rifle match £27.90 per 1000
Win small rifle £19 per 1000
Rem small benchrest £21.62 per 1000

prices do vary by shopping around but alas none are as low as with you in the U.S.

Shipping costs to the U.K and restrictions on expanding bullets keep costs here inflated.

hunting bullets either HP or JSP or loaded ammo with such bullets may only be possessed and purchased with special authority, they are classed in the same category as automatic weapons!!.

This followed the massacre in Dunblane several years ago, since then ownership of hand-guns other than muzzle loaders has been unlawful and expanding ammo was restricted to minimise its availability for criminal use, not that criminals register their guns or buy their ammo through lawful channels.

As items increase in popularity here the costs do come down a little, but nothing like the cost for the same thing in the U.S, my last 100 rounds of hornady 20 grain .17HMR cost just under £20 per hundred (app $36 at current exchange rates!)

bet youre glad you live where you do.

JT

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Tomlinson:
under £20 per hundred (app $36 at current exchange rates!)

bet youre glad you live where you do.

JT

Yep. I had the rate a little lower than that and it was still painfull.

With all the things that suck in this country, looks like we still have it pretty good.
I will quit my bitching now...

...no I won't!

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Tomlinson:
I have found the Remington 17 V-Max to shoot a little tighter than the same version by Hornady, although I am led to believe that they are identical loads(?)

CCI loads (assembles) most of the 17HMR ammo here because they have the biggest magnum rimfire loading machinery in the industry.

I am not sure of Remington's situation specifically, but for all of the "brands" that CCI loads, pretty much every thing (cases and bullets) are the same . The big variance is the powder and powder charge.

This is one reason 17HMR ammo is so consistent: it is the same ammo in a different box.

Graybird: I have been out Hunting for Varmints and spring Bear for the last 6 days. I took my 17 HMR Ruger Model 77/17V along on all Hunts. On the Varmint Hunts it was one of the main go to Varminters and on the spring Bear Hunts it was there when Varmints presented themselves in our high mountain travels. All manner of Varmints were taken with the 17 HMR, with complete satisfaction I might add, during my intense Hunting ventures here this past week!
On one Varmint Hunt late last week I set a new personal distance record for a Varmint kill. My new distance record is 239 yards (Leica Laser Rangefinder ranged). This was a one shot humane kill on a very wary specie of Varmint!
One of the fellows I was Hunting with on this mini-Safari had a new CZ Rifle in 17 HMR with a Burris variable scope and he simply raved about the performance of the 17 HMR in the field on Varmints.
He also had along 3 Varminters in 223, one in 204 Ruger, one in 22-250 and another in caliber 243 Winchester.
He is on an extended two week Safari and called me last night from Wyoming where he is now Prairie Dog Hunting. He continued his rave about the 17 HMR and admitted it was the "most fun" of all his Varminters to use!
Using the 17 HMR in a good Rifle with plenty of scope power on it will definitely make you a happy Varminter!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy

Youre right on, the 17HMR is plain "Fun" -no load development to worry about, no seating depth or case trimming etc, just load and shoot.

Confined to what it does best, small ground game out to 150 plus yards, maybe even ranges approaching 200 yards, its flat shhoting and low cost for ammo make it a winner.

Of course for fox or coyote at long range a .222 or .223 or the like would be undoubtedly a better choice, and for deer there is always the .270 et al and for plains game the .300 Mag or larger calibre and for buffalo the .375 or .416 and for elephant the ???? ; and the list goes on.

Each person will laways have his favourite calibre and pet load for every application, were all different and thats what makes the world go round. At the end of the day certain combinations are plain winners and IMHO the .17 HMR is one such. Long may it reign.

JT