What Would You Do? This late summer and fall I have had a pair of domestic dogs chasing Deer in the fields adjacent to my house, on now 5 occassions. I did not recognize the dogs but watched them with binoculars and have them "memorized". They do not belong to any of my 3 in sight neighbors because they have no dogs at all. Anyway on Thanksgiving day just past my family and I were returning from town here in SW Montana at 10:00 AM. I looked into the field and the two dogs in question were chasing a lone Mule Deer Buck. I grimaced at the sight. The adult Buck jumped the sheep style fencing in a few minutes and the dogs were temporarily stymied (unable to jump or get through the fence in that area)!
Three hours later at 1:00 PM I heard incessant barking from a draw 250 yards from my front door. I walked out to the draw and a sickening (to me anyway) sight I encountered. These same two dogs had a yearling Mule Deer exhausted injured and backed up to a fence. The Mule Deer was able to holdup its head but was lying down close to the fence unable obviously to jump it or even run away. The dogs were on each side of the Deer and barking at it! I was 25 yards away and began shouting at the dogs and throwing rocks at them (I wished I had brought my pump up pellet pistol to sting them at the moment of their offense). I scared the dogs off and actually hit one with a film cannister sized rock after it bounced off of the ground first. The dogs ambled off but the Deer could not retreat. I was sickened and Thanksgiving dinner or not I was going to follow those dogs to their home come hell or high water! They went off toward town (about a mile away) but came to a thicket where Deer love to bed and they began "Hunting" again. I caught up and approached but decided istead of pelting them again and scaring them to their house I would try to befriend them and get a reading off of a collar. One of the dogs (a slender Black Lab cattle dog mix actually came to me eventually and I removed its collar. The other dog a Yellow Lab would not come to me. I shooed them off and they headed toward town. On my return route to my house I went past the yearling Deer and it was now standing in the spot it had been lying where the dogs had cornered it. It showed no visible bleeding or wounds but could not amble away even. It circled in one spot as I passed and its steps were labored and faulting. I was angered and sickened by this sight. All the Mule Deer this time of year are in herds of 6 to 25. This one was alone and no other Deer in sight. I went to my house and called the phone number on one of the tags on the collar. A woman answered and I inquired if she owned a Black Lab looking dog. She said she did and I asked her if she knew where it was. She replied she did not know its wherebaouts but had been "looking for it up that road". I had not identified myself or mentioned the behavior of the dog or its location at all and this remark of up that road (I live on a dead end privately maintained road!)really puzzled me.
I told her I had the dogs collar and for the last 3 hours the dogs had been chasing Deer around my house. I filled her in on the exhausted Deer and the previous 4 times I had seen her dogs chasing Deer this summer/fall. In addition I told her I had seen what I "thought" were her dogs chasing cattle in the fields adjacent to my house. I told her I was 90% sure that her dogs were also the ones chasing cattle this year! I implied to her how dangerous this is to the lives of her dogs as ranchers simply will not tolerate or give warning to cattle chasing dog owners. They kill the dogs! The woman inquired as to my name and I told her VERY politely and matter of factly that my name would be on the complaint filed with the sheriffs department. And that if she was not busy we could meet at the Sheriffs office in town where I would be handing over the dog collar to them as I filed my complaint about her dogs continuous behavior. I went then to the Sheriffs office and they called in a Sheriff to speak with me. 40 minutes later a Sheriff came by and we had a nice conversation about the situation. He informed me that the Game Wardens investigate Deer chasing dogs and I informed him that I would go to the Game Wardens garage here in town on the coming Monday to file my complaint with them. I told the Sheriff he was welcome to give my name to the dog owner when he returned the collar to her. The reason I would not pursue it further on Thanksgiving day or the next few days was the Big Game season here in Montana closes every year on the Sunday after Thanksgiving and the Wardens are exceedigly busy that weekend. Late Sunday night just now past I got a call from my Hunting partner that his neighbor had killed a Moose on the last afternoon of the season and he needed help Monday getting the Moose packed out. I left home at 5:00 AM yesterday (Monday the 2nd of December) hoping to be home or back in town in time to file my complaint during business hours. It did not happen the Moose venture ate the day. I am now going to file my complaint today the 3rd of December when a house chore gets done here.
My question to you all is have I handled this correctly? All my Hunting friends have berated me in the last seeral days for not kiling the domestic dogs on the spot the first time I saw the Deer chasing. I am a dog lover (as well as a nature lover) and I would want the woman to treat me the way I treated her and at least warn her of her dogs behavior, but in the back of my mind I think she knows her dogs chase and she is just to lazy or ditzy to correct the behavior! Anyway I am on the way to the Wardens with the info from the dog tags and will let you know about the legality of shooting Deer chasing dogs (at least here in Montana) and any other information I obtain. I will relay this to you all, I was a police officer for nearly 30 years and as my interview with the Wardens winds down I am going to mention that on the 16th of December I am going to contact in person the County Prosecuter to see what the status of my complaint is! This I have learned to be is a "motivater or fire builder".
I am open to any and all suggestions, ideas, discussions, moral issues and experiences along these lines. Or just let me know how you feel about this situation. I do not kill animals wantonly or without reason. I consider my dominion over creatures a privilege and a responsibility. But I am leaning toward informing the woman dog owner that the next call she gets from me will be informing her of the location of the carcus of her pet if I see them chasing Deer again. If I can keep my dog from chasing Deer then she should do the same with her dogs.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sounds like you handled just right to me. I used to ALWAYS shoot wildlife chasing dogs on sight. I guess I am getting old but I would done just as you did. Hope it works out like it is supposed to.

I guess I am a hard ass, but if this continued this lady's dogs would not come home and I WOULD NOT bother to call her!

Just my opinion, but then I do not agree with the reintroduction of wolves or grizzly bears, either.

R F

Having reported the problem dogs to law enforcement, your name will be the first to come up should the dogs go 'missing'.

Check your state regs. If you are allowed to dispose of collared dogs that are chasing wildlife or cattle, go ahead, especially if they have threatened you.

George

If I had seen this behavior in the dogs in question more than once.... would have shot them and dug a hole. Problem solved.

Saw the same thing happen here. Got ahold of a game warden to find out what my options where if I ever encountered this again. Be reminded that I was at least 1 mile from the closest farm house.

He told me that dogs are personnel property.... but shoot them if nobody is around.

Excellent job, Varmintguy. I live here too and like you came from the blue-suit fraternity. Documenting a pattern of behavior is the best method in getting matters resolved or into the hands of those who are supposed to handle it.

Fair warning has been given, processes served. Next time, bring a shovel.

Redial
Intolerant curmudgeon

The second time I saw them would have been the last. I can't understand why you didn't shoot them on the spot.

In Virginia (and much of the South), dogs are spozed to chase deer. It's a mighty sorry deer that can't outrun a dog.

It is illegal in our state to chase deer with dogs.

[ 12-04-2002, 05:39: Message edited by: DLS ]

A lot depends on the laws of the state you live in it use to be in wis if dogs were chasing deer shoot them on sight. After about 1983 they changed the law towards dogs even and only game wardens have the right to do it. Due to law suits ect they all try and avoid it all possible. The state has paid for more then one expensive dog after wrongfuly shooting it. It is amazing how much a dog is worth once someone shoots it wrong fully. Be very carefull I have seen several people charged with crimes for shooting dogs. Talk about spending money to defend oneself.

Well since the law knows about you, the question is do you own any livestock. If not you better let the warden deal with it. You would have no business killing a dog that isn't harming you or yours. If you own livestock or even a cat then put a couple holes in their fur knowing full well she was warned and your cat's life was in danger. Cover your ass!

I have shot 8 dogs since September or so, the cattle are on wheat pasture now, and the hot wire fences have been down a couple of times, and I found the culprit in action last week, there was 4 dogs chasing the cattle. I put 3 out of 4 out of commission. While driving out and down the road the man was standing in his front yard on the phone. I reckonized a couple of the dogs as the ones that hang around his place. So I stopped, he was on the phone with the Sheriff's office. I heard him tell the dispatcher that his dogs were chasing the cattle and I didn't fire a warning shot or anything, I just started popping his dogs. Then he was silent and he said, "but he didn't warn the dogs or come get me" silence. Then "OK Bye". The man then questioned why I didn't come get him or fire a warning shot. I said cause that would be the third time this week that I would be rebuilding fence and that if I had came and got him would he help fix fence. I asked if I needed to hang around to explain my story to a deputy, he replied with no, that the deputy on the phone explained that if dogs are caught chasing, harrassing, or destroying livestock they can be shot. So, I told the man that he should be getting 1 dog back, and if he wanted to keep it, he shouldn't allow it to run cattle.

I would have taken care of it myself. I'm a dog lover but my animals stay home. If the nice lady can't keep her animals at home, she gets what she gets.

Migra

S�S�S�

Shoot, Shovel� and Shut-up !

Shoot a man's dog in Virginia and you better shoot the man first.

Follow-up: The warden took my complaint and said he would do all he could to put an end to the Deer chasing by these two dogs. He stated that domestic dogs can be legally shot chasing livestock in Montana. He also stated that domestic dogs could be legally shot chasing Big Game. My conjecture is that the dogs must be off of their owners property doing these misdeeds to be shot. I may check further on that particular facet. I will be prepared if these two easily recognizable "pets" endanger the Deer again. Thanks for your thoughts and experiences.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

leftoverdj: I forgot to respond to your posting. This yearling most certainly could outjump and or outrun "A" dog but their team effort and the situation is the fences around here have sheep proof wires that also do not allow Deer to scoot through the middle of them. The fences consist of about 10" continuous squares of heavy wire. If the harried and exhausted Deer gets near the fence and is tired and can not get a short run at the fence they then are at the mercy of the pursuer. Maybe no sheep fencing in Virginia but lots of it here and the ranchers build the fences real high so the livestock won't step over it in the deep snow times. Hope I described this better this time. I think some people refer to these continuous wire square fences as hog fencing also.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

First time I caught the dog I would try to get it back to it's owner, never know if it got away while hunting. Second time I caught the dog it would be 3S time!!! Now theres a challenge, shooting deer while dogs are chasing them.

One dog is a dog, two dogs is half a dog, and three dogs is no dog at all!

Dan

leftoverdj:

I don't know if you live in a rural area of Virginia or not, but I can tell you from first hand experience that it is amazing how fast a pack of family pets can revert to a trained pack of killers. No one is talking about shooting someone's coon hound or deer dogs, if the state allows dog deer hunting, very few do now, but as a livestock owner, if I see a dog(s) harassing my cattle he is toast, then and there, unless, he is wearing a collar and will come to me where I can call the owner. Very few will.

Upon further reflection, I think Varmint Guy did the right thing given that he is not the livestock or land owner, EXCEPT that he probably should have caught or tried to catch the offending pooches the first time he saw them, which would have led to the same sequence of events, and then if he saw them chasing deer again, kill them without witnesses.

BTW, if it gets right down to it and I shoot a dog chasing my cattle, and the owner wants to make a deadly issue of it, then that will be one of our's last mistake. I have some labs that I think a lot of, but if they get out and are chasing someone's cattle and the owner shot them, I would say, "Oh well, they should've stayed home.", NOT blame the man protecting his property.

To me there is quite a difference between dogs harassing livestock and dogs harassing deer.

Now I hate deer running dogs as much as the next guy, but when you shoot a dog for running deer, what are you saying? You're saying that the deer does not deserve such treatment, that it is blatantly wrong, etc., etc... You are basically "protecting" the deer from the horrible dogs.

Well, that train of thought (and I'm not sure it's even a train--more like a tricycle pulling a Radio Flyer! ) would make shooting that same deer during deer season hypocritical. i.e. "It's not okay for dogs to kill deer, 'cuz they don't know how to do it right. But if I shoot the deer, well, that's different..."

But it really isn't. In fact, logic would say that the dog has as much right to run down the deer as the man has to shoot the deer, provided the man's or his family's survival isn't depending on taking the deer.

The dog is simply doing what his canine ancestors did eons ago.

"He doesn't need to kill the deer, because he has a bowl of Alpo waiting at home? Well, my friend, you may not be eating Alpo, but I doubt the cupboard is bare...

Don't get me wrong--I eat deer! And I don't like to see dogs doing this. I came upon a spotted fawn a couple of years ago that two Airdales in our community had run down and killed. I didn't like seeing that--the deer still had its spots. But those dogs, in truth, were behaving no worse for dogs than we are for people when we shoot deer.

As for livestock, I don't know what kind of cattle some of you are talking about when you say that dogs are running them. In these parts, the cattle tend to herd together and trample dogs that try this. But I'm all for shooting dogs to protect sheep and other livestock if it is necessary to do so.

'Course I'm all for shooting perps when they come across your yard fence with bad intentions, too...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Check your state laws, to the best of my knowledge every state has laws prohibiting animal harrassment and that includes by other animals. I've been a law enforcement officer for 30+ years and have never arrested anyone for shooting dogs that were packed up and chasing livestock or deer. Dogs that pack up develope a Jeckel and Hyde personality and become very dangerous in a pack and don't loose this pack killing instinct and need to be destroyed! Good Luck & Good Hunting, "Z"

The coyotes around here are killing smaller deer. Some people get really upset over it, but the Game Commission brought the damned things in here, so what'd they expect?

And you're right, Danno, I really don't have a problem with a tomcat helping himself to a quail. Hell they're good eating! Can you blame him!

Now if they are my quail which I happen to be raising and a cat or dog gets into the pen, out comes the shotgun.

We protect what is ours, but we really have no more claim to the critters in nature than other critters do. How can we? We can't expect animals to follow hunting and game control laws.

That's just my philosophy. I won't judge you harshly for feeling differently.

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

I say the best way is the 3S's . Shoot, shovel, & what dog? You never even saw the dog or it chasing deer. That way getting along with the neighbers does not get complicated.
If the authorities don't do nothing about it(I am not saying they won't) but if they don't, then you got to do something about it. Now every time a dog goes missing, weather you shoot it or not.(maby it gets hit by a car or someone else disposes of the dog) you are most likely to get the blame.

green788,
I am not intending being rude, but give your head a shake.
So what if that is the dogs instinct. The dogs owners are being irresponsible. Whether it is sheep, cattle, deer or someone elses dog. A domesticated or any other dog does not have the right to harras. My 22-250 says so. I do not have the right to chase and harras deer either. I purchase a licience and the meat goes in my freezer. Nothing is wasted.

You are correct. It is not the fault of the dog. Bottom line it is the responsiblity of the dogs owner. In alot of places they would be charged and fined for letting their dogs run loose. Instinct or not if the dog is a problem, the dog has to go.

On a different note,

a friend of mine was in his house while his kids were out in the yard playing. He heard the sound of dogs fighting and his kids screaming. He instinctively grabbed his 12ga. and ran out side to discover his son being mauled. He ran up and fired a shot in the air. The dogs stopped the mauling and headed for home which was about 200yards away. Only one dog made it home cause he killed one near the mauling. After tending to his son, who needed medical attention, he went over to his neighbors, with 12ga. in arms, and asked,"where is the f'n dog!" They pointed to the dog house nearby and amid protests from the owners, he blew away the dog on the end of it's chain. He had had trouble with the dogs before and he had words with the dog owners before. No charges were laid on my friend.
Anouther friend had his female sheperd killed on its leash in his front yard by a roaming dog. He sometime later got his chance and killed the dog. The owners of that dog are probably still wondering what happened to him.

It is funny how dogs that roam, just disapear....

Green 788:

It is a rattlesnake's instinct to bite to protect itself, so if one bites you then you won't have any negative feelings for it, will you?

You guys are masters at missing points!

If you want to shoot the dog, shoot the dog. I'm not telling you whether you should or shouldn't, I'm just pointing out that your right to shoot the dog is no more profound than the dog's right to do what he's doing. (Other than the fact that God gives man dominion over the animals, if you want to go that way with the discussion, I'll concede that).

If you want to be "defender of the deer," that's fine. I told the owner of the afformentioned Airdales that his dogs were not going to be "long for this world" if they kept running deer. Dogs that run deer piss people off! (They piss me off too, re-read my post).

It think what's got you boys in a dander is the notion that dogs like to hunt too !

By the way, if you see my dog running deer, please be my guest and send him to the "happy deer running ground in the sky!" I won't hold you responsible, I promise.

Are we communicating now?

Dan

green788,

No dander here.

I know what you are getting at. I understand the point you are making.

A dogs profound right is irrelevant to me, espcially a problem dog.



Daryl

leftoverdj
I too live at the base of the blue ridge and have a farm in Bath cty. I have had dogs on my place in the past and have developed an attitude towards them. If they are obviously hunting dogs ie setters pointers beagles etc or bear hounds with collars they are safe. Probably seperated from their hunting owners. Almost everytime they will come when called. In fact if I am hunting they will start following me screwing things up. However, if they shy away and looked to be some mixed breed...bye bye.

Thanks Yukoner... I appreciate that. We apparently don't differ on the issue as much as I initially thought.

Take care,

Dan

I agree with the caveat about obviously lost hunting dogs or pets. Otherwise, I'm in the "what dogs, I haven't seen any dogs" camp. JMO, Dutch.

I lived in Florida some years back and there was a case where a pack of dogs atacked a child. If it hadn't been for his brother the dogs would have killed him. The next night on the TV they anounced that there would be a hunting party to take out all dogs that were running free. This was put on by the police.

Here in Indiana if a dog is on your property you are alowed by law to kill it. The same is true for Ohio and Kentucky.

I had some problems with running dogs trying to eat my puppys while I was at work. It cost me over $300 in vet bills. I called the police and they said that I had to take care of it. I went over to my nabors house and explained what happend and that if he wonted to keep the dogs he had better keep them off my place. I explained that would be the only worning and I wonted no trouble over this he said that their would be no trouble over a bunch of old dogs. He said that he just fed them they didn't belong to him. I have killed 4 so far. No problems yet

CB cap in an eye or ear canal, very sh,sh,sh,sh,sh,sh,sh.

Before I gave up on ever finding a useful hunting dog, I shot 2 dogs I paid a lot of money for, FOR CHASING DEER!

Terry8mm:

That sounds more like an owner/trainer problem than a dog problem. Why didn't you just call them in? And, if they wouldn't come, they weren't very well trained.

Not that some dogs in training won't chase deer, but that is usually when they are young. Guess yours didn't get a chance to overcome it. Ever hear of a shock collar?

A shock collar! I thought those were for kindergartners!

Actually, they do work pretty well if you get the good ones...

But here's an even better idea: Be careful of the breed of dog you get. If you're unsure of the ancestoral habits of the breed you're getting, do a bit of research.

I wish I had done so before I got two beagles. Beautiful, wonderful little dogs, but they would not stay at home! I had the invisible fence (don't waste your money), and then I tied them and the little bastards would get loose while I was gone--one way or another. I fenced them in and they dug out. I built a pen on my back porch and they chewed through the lattice and got out.

I gave the two dogs to a rabbit hunter acquaintance, and one is reported to be his best rabbit dog to date. They are happy now, and so am I.

My next dog was a shepherd/chow mix. If you are unfamiliar with what a chow is like, I advise you to find out before taking on a dog with any of that breed in it. "Baby" was a wonderful dog, jet black and built like a tank. She was one tough mongrel. Two Collies jumped out of the back of a pick up when it passed our house one day, and before they could get to Baby, she broke her chain and took care of both of them... That little incident was the talk of our block for a few days.

But it caused everyone to be afraid of her. One neighbor complained to the police that I had a dangerous dog, and related the Collie incident as evidence. (That pissed me off, my dog was defending herself in her own yard). And Chows are the stubbornest breed of dog on the planet, bar none. She was her own boss when she got away from me. I would call her and she'd just turn and look at me and then jerk her head to the side as if to say "hell no!" and then she'd run farther off.

I gave her to a family about thirty miles away. They were having deer problems with their crops, and needed a dog that would challenge the deer. I don't know how that ever worked out. I've been afraid to call and ask...

Folks, if you want a good dog, get a Golden Retreiver. Mine is nearly a year old now, and he is simply a joy to be around. He comes when you call him (most of the time) and is very trainable. He'll be with us for a long time, I feel sure.

When it comes to dogs, breed is everything.

Take care,

Dan

If you shoot the dog(s), you have solved the problem only until the irresponsible owner gets another mutt, then the process begins again. Focus on hurting the owner in the pocketbook with the law - it usually gets their attention.

Begin by:
1. Taking good notes - what did the dogs look like, when and where did it occur, whose dogs/where did they come from.
2. Call the authorities and demand action - have the balls to sign a written complaint.
3. Request a response on the outcome of the investigation/court case.

Yeah, it's more work for you, but put the blame where it belongs.

Why not take advantage of the dogs and shoot the deer?

I live in an orchard that is about 200 acres. After harvest every summer, we get packs of half wild dogs running around messing with livestock. The dogs come from the orchard workers who get a dog at the beginning of harvestand leave them to roam after they leave. These dogs are very dangerous due to the fact that they are not afraid of people and usually pretty damn hungry. There is a "rule" around here that if it doesn't have a collar, it gets taken out.

S-S-S no more need said.