On three seperate visits "Wild" dogs killed 5 of 6 of my Nubian goats (that floppy-eared gentle breed -- ones that let kids ride on their backs and are often found in petting zoos). The canines were less than decent about it, first tearing the hide loose beginning under a foreleg and then ripping it in a wide swath like scotch tape all the way down the belly to the pelvic area. They usually ended up by chewing through the neck until the head detached, before feeding on the carcasses. At first I thought it was coyotes but a predator control officer told me emphatically coyotes don't behave that way -- only feral dogs. I caught a glimpse of the suspects just once (loping through my 5-acre woods) and marked them down in my mind. From a distance they resembled yellow labs. Apparently the pair could count, and came back for the sixth and last Nubie early one evening. I heard her screaming and leaped from the dinner table and ran downstairs to my gun cabinet. The only ammo handy was some loose .32-20 and I shoved two rounds into my 1891 Win. 73 which hadn't been fired in anger since the Murdoc Indian uprising. I shot one dog through the rib cage and, to my stupefaction, the second with a quartering shot just as she disappeared at a dead run around the bend of my driveway (the bullet going clean through the woods and hitting her in the back of the head). Then I went and got a third round and dispatched the dying goat. The dogs were littermates (one female) and both had cheap matching plastic collars but no tags. Yellow hair, with Alsatian features. The same dogs, I later learned, which had attacked my neighbor's sheep and left about two bales of wool scattered across his pasture.

I posted three pictures -- one each of the dead dogs plus the dead goat -- on the bulletin board at the country crossroads store a mile from my house. Above the photos I posted a banner: "DEATH TO ALL TYRANTS." Within two days someone had written the letters "F" "U" over the banner, and within a week all three photos had been mutilated.

Since then I've kept Jacobs sheep -- hard to find and harder still to intimidate. They have double sets of horns and gonads that would fill Abe Lincoln's inaugural hat to overflowing. I've seen coyotes stare at them from the other side of the fence, think long and hard, then turn and trot away. One of the Jacobs, Frank "The Enforcer" Nitti by name, put me on the ground twice when my back was turned. But that's a fair exchange. I don't have to shoot dogs anymore (which I hate doing), and while I miss those silly Nubians (they once drank a quart of Sherwin-Williams acrylic while I was painting their goatel and pooped blue pellets all the next day), life here in the country is much less stressful. I think I've managed to strike a truce with Mother Nature. Hometeam: O. Visitors: O

Excellent post, Tony. You're quite the wordsmith. Hope to see more from you.

Dan

I owned a dairy farm for 25 years, I always kept a Rem. 1100 12g loaded with No.4 buckshot in the barn. Just shoot the damn dogs and keep your mouth shut. If someone comes looking for their dogs...you ain't seen'um.

I talked to a game warden last year about wild or domestic dogs chasing deer here in Ohio. I had been seeing a lot of this lately in the Wayne National Forest area. His response was very interesting. "If they are chasing deer they are either wild or not under the control of there owners ..... shoot them." I must have seemed surprised by his response. He told me that I would be shocked by the amount of deer that are killed by packs or pairs of dogs each year. As a pack, they can chase them almost continously until they are exhausted and drop.

VG,
I understand your position as I wouldn't care to shoot someone's errant pet....but this was repetitive behavior....dogs become very bold in groups....

My first reaction would have been ...S S S...but we don't have much of that problem as the wolves will quickly kill them....MAYBE MONTANA NEEDS MORE WOLVES!.....can we send a few?

One thing that may be impressed upon the owners that they are legally and financially responsible for the actions of their dogs.

Game, livestock or leash laws in many states are VERY much AGAINST the free roaming dog.

LouisB

Check on the state law in your state, it can save you a LOT of money and hassle.

No matter what SSS is the final answer if things are not handled by a dogs owner.

[ 01-03-2003, 04:41: Message edited by: TCLouis ]

I must be a bad. When I was in Virginie there were a few hunt clubs that would pull up before deer season and drop off thier dogs right at the property and leave. These guys would run the deer for about one week before season I have no idea why. Well after asking them one morning what the hell they were doing it wasnt thier property and getting much crap I just left the collars on the road where they droped em. Problem solved kinda funny how the dogs had trouble getting out of that creek. Your dog can do what it wants on your place not on mine.

VernAK: No Vern we absolutely need no more Wolves down here in Montana! In fact we have WAY TO MANY! They are thinking of opening the season on them next year. The Elk are really suffering in several areas of western Montana from Wolf predation and resulting decimated calf crops (recently 1/4th of normal)! The state of Montana is dealing with the Feds to initiate pre-agreed to controls the state can institute to regulate the Wolves at numbers they have already surpassed. So Hunting them soon will be on my agenda! I do everyting I can to keep the Coyotes from eating all the Deer and Antelope fawn crops.

Swift Shot: I hope you are getting used to the rain and gray there in Oak Harbor (I was born and raised near there and have webbed toes to prove it). I used to shoot Rabbits on several of the islands around Puget Sound before the yuppies and pot heads took over most of the San Juans. Times change. Anyway I'll bet that Whidbey Island is quite a change from down south!

Thanks all for your comments and concerns. The good news is I have not seen the two offending dogs chasing anything or even seen them at all, and it has been 36 days or so since the last incident.
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Being a a dog owner and I also working with 40 sled dogs this winter I know that I is almost imposible to stop a dog from running of sometimes. So I would give the owner and dog a chance before I killed a roming dog. I would have killed a dog hurting my dog, livestock or chasing/killing wildlife if I had no other choise. My dog have been roaming the woods around my house alot. I don't mean to let him go but sometimes it happens. And getting a dog killed without a reason would hurt very much.

Johan

There is a fine line here. My 1 year old best friend(His name was Forest, Yellow Lab) was shot and killed by a couple who said he was chasing their horses. I don't know if he was or wasn't but they could have simply said "here boy" and Forest would have come over wagging his tail! He had his collar on with name, address, and phone number. This all happened when I went to visit my parents near Cortez Colorado.

When I called the Sheriff to report the killing, he simply said that there are a number of wild dogs in the area and it is ok to shoot them. Needless to say I was heartbroken for quite a while.

VarmitGuy;

This is one of those "Damned if you, Damned if you don't" situations. But here are several lessons that should help.

1).If dogs are running around the countryside like this, thier owners don't care about either them or what they do. More than likely these people tell you how much they care and how much they love animals especially dogs. Truth is, if they really cared they would learn first how to be a responsible pet owner. People who own dogs that run uncontrolled but tell you how much they care about animals CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

2). Dogs that are on an uncontrolled run like the one you discribed are at the height of unpredictability. In one of my own episodes in trying to find out about the unknown dogs, I approached as you did. Oh yeah, they came up to me real friendly like, but I ended up getting bit. From the reaction of the rest of the pack I was probably very lucky I didn't get mauled. Approaching unknown dogs that have been on the chase is one of the more dangerous things that you can do!

3). Dogs on a chase like the chase you described kill for the sake of killing. When I was a kid, I worked on a farm/ranch. Far too many days to count we would find dead deer, rabbits, larger birds of all kind along with pigs, calves, colts, sheep, cats and even other dogs and coyotes. The charateristics of what was responsible was alway a telling tale, chased or mauled to death but not eaten. Why this is, wild type dogs(coyotes/wolf, etc.) that are hunting for food (to survive) do NOT waste precious enery in a chase down without eating. Only domestic dogs do this because they are well fed and are only out for the chase. Once the chase item is mauled the chase is over - next!! They don't need the food!

4). Once a dog is addicted to chasing, just like rabies and a taste for blood - the dog is a lost cause. It will never give it up!

5). If you allow this situation to continue, the problem will only get worse. If you cannot get quick, positive movement through the leagl system, it will end up as a negative affect to the situation(it will get worse). there are some officers that truly understand this problem, and when it is reported the situation is resolved in a couple of days. If it takes any longer, problems will only begin to compound.

6). This problem is not an animal problem, it IS a people problem. Irresponsible pet ownership and trying to be overtly pollitically correct about what should happen once invloved in the situation. When this problem crops up there is NO good answers, just the right answers.

7). This situation is rarely taken as seriously as it should, usually because I guess people believe that it's harmless fun for the dogs. They don't believe dogs maul and kill when they are in the pack chase mode.

This problem can be resolved very quickly by picking out the Leader dog or dogs. You will know right away if there is a second dog that is ready to take over. Do NOT be suprised of the lead dog isn't the largest dog, sometime the smaller dogs are more chase vicious) If the leader dogs are killed until the pack splits, there will then be no leader. Regouping at this point in a couple of days can be a problem, but isn't really likely, because the subordinate dogs will no longer hold the trust for another Alpha dog in another chase, they will more than likely stay closer to home in safe territory(unless they have gotten a taste for blood on the chase).

Here is the kicker. Every one of us has known of dogs that do this, but we didn't realize it.

People who have dogs that have a tendancy to run off for a couple of days, and people who do not pen up their dogs at night are the sole source of this problem, as is dog dumping. Dogs who continually do this are either seasoned subordine pack dogs or are a leader dog themselves. This is a situation that is REAL easy to rationalize. It goes something like this;no problem, after all my dog came back home, or my dog wouldn't do that or my dog won't bite(my dog wouldn't hurt anyone). These may all be true around the owner, but when a dog gets a pack leader, all bets are off.

It is very hard to do the right thing when dealing with this problem, try handling it this way, when the lead dog(s) is targeted, think about how much killing is actually being stopped, or you can think about the couples around Junction City, Ks. whose elementry school children were mauled to death one day on the way home from school by a pack dogs.

Please do not take this situation lightly.

Dave Brown

Dave;You are badly misinformed when you make a statement that only dogs kill for the sake of killing and leave the meat to spoil.Wolves around here have done just that on several occasions with elk calves and sheep.There is a picture posted in the window of a local sporting goods store of 9 elk calves killed up near Gardiner by one of the Yellowstone packs.A friend of mine manages a ranch north of here had a wolf come in and killed 7 sheep at one time before the goverment hunter got there and killed him.w/regards

Dave2of5 & Gophershooter: And everyone else I appreciate all the responses and advice. Again I will report it has been 46 days or so and no sight of the dogs in question at all. Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Gopherguy;

Thanks for the correction. I was alittle broad and overtly general with that particular statement.

However, I will still stand by the fact that far to many people do NOT take this situation seriously enough.

Thanks.

Dave Brown

Dave:I agree with everything else in your post.Dogs can be a nightmare with respect to harming people.livestock and wild game.w/regards

[ 01-12-2003, 07:47: Message edited by: cpt. caveman ]

I have a simple policy on this subject. If it, i.e., anything, is out molesting wildlife...it dies.

I don't really care if it's a dog, cat or gecko. And there is no bigger cat lover in the world than me...but I've shot several cats doing just this. I don't lie around afterwards wondering if they are ferel or someone's dumbass pet.

It's amazing how suddenly pet owners can get responsible when a couple of their little darlings don't come home.

Conversely, I take the same reaction to any wildlife that comes in to molest my domestic animals. I've blown away a few critters that fit that category also, including a rabid fox that dang near got me.

Hey this may be a dumb question; from an Aussie, was the deer wild or being farmed, i know most of you blokes use the term "Rancher", one of my mates grows the deer to sell for export-meat and velvet- so if it is stock then shoot the dog- yet my dog (always under my control) and a big dog and Old English Sheep Dog-Bob Tail..45Kgs almost got smashed by a red deer the other week at my mates farm..the bigger deer esp with Antlers can look after themselves!!

Boris: No these Deer are wild free roaming Mule Deer. They are great leapers and bounders. They often run in a manner called "stotting" which is all four feet hitting the ground at the same time and they bounce forward from the all four foot bound time after time. This raises them about 3 feet higher off the ground than a normal trot. The 3 foot high bound also allows them to see above and into tall grass and sage brush etc. I also have many Whitetailed Deer near my home but they for some unknown reason do not seem as often to get chased by the dogs. The Whitetailed Deer do like to stay in "thickets" much more than the Mule Deer though. So if they are chased they would be in the willows more often which might account for the fewer sightings. 52 days or so and no more sightings of the dogs in question! Maybe the problem got solved! I hope so. The fences do constitute a barrier that hinders Deer especially if they are yearlings and are being chased. They don't seem to be able to judge or anticipate the needed "timing" to get over a cattle fence! Then they are at the mercy of the dogs.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I hope all is well "down under" and you are enjoying your summer! It is winter here and 9 degrees Fahrenheit as I write this (Midnight).
I pray the fires you had (as I recall) last year do not happen again! Put a shrimp on the "barby" for me! Long live Australia!

Hey VarmintGuy thanks for the insight and the kind wishes to all down under. Yeah summer is in full swing, its about 1500hrs on Friday afternoon, and I think they said it was 37 Degrees C, dunno what that is in F but it is hot. Drought on as well, with water ristrctions on in the city.. Plenty of fires as always and good ole American Know how in terms of that Elvis Helo doing great work on fires as always. Rabbit hunting great despite the heat, the dry conditions have knocked out alot of mosquitos that carry the calicivirus which is a biological control of our rabbits. So plenty of targets to heat up the barrel and plenty of BBQ rabbit...best wished to you and you'all

Here in sunny Scotland!!!
The law states if it is your land it is your property when it comes to wildlife! Shooting someones pooch because it is chasing game is a definite no no.
Different matter if it chasing Stock it can be legally shot!
But only if you have that condition on your firearms certificate!!
Shoot it with a shotgun no problem!!
The saddest part of this whole scenario is that these careless owners don't have to wake upto dead sheep,aborted lambs,sheep with intestines ripped out,haunches half eaten,sheep scattered over half the county, and then the owner says it only having a bit of fun!!!
I agree with the whole S.S.S. solution: SEE SHOOT SUE.
Sue them for every penny you can!!!
Sub-urban terrorists come out to the country with your sub-urban ideas,litter the place as if it was your own,walk anywhere and everywhere without a thought as to what they are doing, Dogs chasing stock, cats killing everything that they can, then they have the gall to tell us how to run our lives,just because it doesn't fit in with there moral standards!!
They contribute NOTHING to the rural economy, yet expect a welcome mat.
Best thing they could do is ring fence all the major towns and cities and should you wish leave then pay a levvy towards the upkeep of the country.
We have to pay when we enter a major city parking fees etc.
so why not the other way round!!

I digress!
Best solution, shoot the dog, ring the owner,tell them that their dog has killed several stock to the value of $$, when they pay, give them the dog!!

Griff
Keep the bulls in the country and the bullshit in the towns.

Harkm
You talk about discretion when it it should be responsibility. Perhaps your dog could have run out into the road and caused an accident, they won't sue the dog, why because the resposibility is yours and yours alone.If you can't keep your dog under control, then you have have to accept the consequences!
Next time you visit a farm/ranch ask would they put up with their own dog if it worried stock. I don't think so. So if they are not prepared to have their own dog worry stock, why should we put up with somebody elses!!!
As for shooting one of his horses, what did his horse do to you.
What we need is a change in the law that would allow us to shoot the owner and re-train the dog!!
Next time you kick your dog at night, think what it could be upto! If every body was responsible when it comes to their pets, then we wouldn't have to put up with the carnage that often greets us a day break.

Compulsory Insurance
Compusory license
All dogs without a collar destroyed.
Large fines or jail sentence or banned from keeping any animal if you are convicted of your pet worrying stock. Life is hard enough as it is without irresponsible pet owners making it harder.
I could go on forever, but when are you thick pet owners going to get it through your head, that you are responsible for the actions of your pet.
If you don't need a dog don't get one, its as simple as that. Unfortunately 99% of pet owners have no idea what death and destruction their fireside pooch can inflict on farm stock, I just wish that owners were there to witness it a first hand. They might think twice about owning a dog!!!

Griff

Griff, If somebody shoots my COLLARED yellow lab then they deserve the same heartache as as I had to endure. That's the way I see it. Dog lovers won't blow away beautifal Labs and would try to find their owners. Dog haters simply shoot first and think second. They might want to invision the the consequenses before they shoot. What did my dog do to them? absolutely nothing. The killer's neighbor saw him walk up to Forest and shoot him. Then he picked Forest up by the tail, collar and all, and threw him in a previously dug hole.

I get mad just thinking about it. All I have to say is you better watch your back if you are going to shoot other people's pets. I am sure I am not the only person who feels this way.

Accidents happen. Unless you are very sure you have a dog than is constantly a problem, with owners who really don't care, Then you better watch your back.

I'm sure whatever you decide will be the right thing, but after reading all the comments, I think I agree most with Scott B's, i.e to take advantage of the dogs and shoot the deer. I have to admit his comment came along just at the right time. Humor comes in all shapes and sizes, but usually timing is the best. Hats off to ya' Scott

The only GOOD deer dog is a dead deer dog.

Blaze 'em.

You have handled it the right way! My feelings are mixed, we can hunt deer, but dogs can't It does not bother me because it is fair chase and will cull out weak deer. If it upsets the balance then they will be hunted like the coyote. If the dogs are harassing live stock or people, that is a different story. I would notify local authorities about the problem, and would not let it happen again. Its the dog owner who is at fault I can see it happen once after that the owner caused the problem.

Harkm- I am a dog lover as well as a breeder/trainer. I train some of them for protection work. The breed that I specialize in is American Pitbulls. I have a neighber that "owned" a boxer. One morning I get a knock on my door at 6:30 am by another neighber asking if I own a "Red Pitbull w/ a blue collar". Half a sleep, I say yes. He informs me that he has just killed his blind goat. I apologize and offer to replace the goat or if there is anything that I can do. He was upset stating that it was his son's goat and to just control my dog. He leaves and I went to get dressed and look for my dog. I went to inspect the damage and retrieve my dog. During the early morning a dog had dug into the pin then killed the goat. My neighber was awaken by the noise and went out side scaring the dog off. I told my neighber that I would handle the dead goat so his son would not have to see it. I took the goat and drove home the long way looking for my dog. Now I am sure that some of you are thinking that I am am irrisponsible dog owner. I am feeling that way. After seeing no sign of my dog, I return home. I find my dog at home. I tell my wife what has happened. She informs me that "Jake, the red Pitbull" was in my daughter's room that night. Now Jake is my house male. He has two years and counting of training. He is my best male. I have done alot of control work with him not leaving the yard without one of us with him. We do allow him to go out front to do his business. So I think that it is totally posable that he could have done the deed. I start to think that Jake was mistaken for another dog. Sure enough. I question a few of the other neighber on my road. They inform me that their is a boxer running around chasing chickens and cats. Two days latter I see the Boxer w/ blue collar roaming. I pick him up and return him home. I tell him that he has been chasing some of the other neighbers livestock. He replys "yeh he does that". The dog is a good looking one, that seems to be well bred. With that I leave. I return to the ex-goat owner and inform him that there is a red boxer w/ a blue collar. I ask him if it could have been him. He replys " I know a pitbull when I see one". With that I apologize again and go home. Now I am a little mad that my dog has been labled a "Killer". Jake has a "red" collar and does not leave the yard. Now Pitbulls and Boxer are distintly different. The color markings are similar but you can tell them apart. I am not looking to piss off any of my neighbers, so I was not going to argue with him. He is already mad at me and here in California Pits don't have a real good reputation. A few weeks later I see the same Boxer running around. I want home and retrieved my Rem7mag, grab a few varmint rounds (reloaded 120gr balistic tips) and drive back down the road. A head shot spreads him along the hill side. Then I drove home. Now I love dogs but I have no problem with putting them down. I would have felt really bad if Jake was shot for killing goats. But it is my responsability to control my dogs. It has been 7 months since I shot the Boxer and I have heard nothing about it.

You can take a look at Jake here @
www.redoakkennels.com

Darrin

[ 01-29-2003, 21:54: Message edited by: Darrin ]

I talked to a game warden in Idaho who said he has shot more cats than pheasants. When he is hunting pheasants his dog trees cats. And he shoots them.

Just FYI.

Shoot them, throw them over the damn hill, and dare anyone to come on your property lookin' for them!!!!!

Varmint Guy,
Whatever you elect to do, you'll have to live with it. What action is the easiest to live with? I've owned dogs all my life, with the exception of the time in the military. Right now the ugliest little mutt in the world is curled up beside me as I type this. That said, I believe in responsible ownership of pets. If I keep my animals on my property, then what they do is no one elses business. What it does on the property of others is their business and if I don't like it, I should have kept my animal in my yard. In most of the states in which I've lived, animals harassing livestock or game is considered a public nuisance and as such may be killed on the spot. I don't know who originated the S-S-S concept, but in your case I think it would be reasonable. Shoot-Shovel-silence. Don't borrow grief. dump the carcasses out of sight and call it a job well done.

Varmit Guy
I think you did the right thing.As stated
this is an owner problem not a dog problem.As
long as the dog is not aggressive to people,give
the owner 1 chance to correct the problem.If the
dog was aggressive towards you,well...SSS on site.

I love my dog,he is NEVER allowed to run free.
He is not allowed to take off with "freinds" for
a romp.He is not allowed free course to do his
daily business.Rain sleet snow T-storm I am with
him,always.
He is NEVER allowed to chase cows,cats,rabbits deer etc..
While bird hunting we have sight jumped deer and I have always been able to control him with voice commands.That said IF he ever did get out of my
control for some reason,and was chasing deer.I would hope the person who found him thought more like you.IF he were truely aggressive to you or
yours then I say serves me right.And I don't want
a mean dog anyways.But I think you did the decent
thing.FWIW
Jeff