Not to dispute anyones word, but it seems that some of the shots I read about may be keyboard generated.
I've done a fair amount of varmint hunting,ground hogs, prairie dogs, crows, etc.
I have always had top notch equipment(40x's,20-24x, quality scopes), but regardless, i've had my share of misses.Crows at 500+ yds. are damned small targets. And then there is the wind, and All bullets are affected by a cross wind,some more than others.It seems the wind always blows in the West and most other places as well.
Maybe a weather station, and a lap top would help. What are your thoughts?
Stepchild

I would wager that for every spectacular shot that connects at medium - long range, (500 - 1200 yrds) there are several shots that don't. However, the shots that miss don’t tend to make it into the story.(Misses aren’t nearly as interesting)

This is why egg shoots are considered such a challenge. Getting only one shot at an egg hanging from a string somewhere between 385 and 435 yards has humbled some of the best long-range shooters.

just shot a crow at 526yds on sunday, i have spent ages working up to it and practising, it took three shots to get the windage right that was in a 5mph breeze, luckily over here we can use sound moderators and this must have been one dumb crow to sit around for that long as u usually just get one shot at them! but it is possible and they are a smll target at that range and it is a big challenge(for me atleast!)to be able to hit them at that sort of distance. if we hit everything we aimed at all of the time no one would shoot as it would be too easy andno fun.

Three misses and one hit is probably better than the average for 500 yard shooting. On my last prairie dog excursion I took some dogs in the 500 yard range (as later verified using an aerial photo) with a .243 and 55 grain Ballistic Tips at just under 4000 fps. A couple of the more notable "hits" took place on the 4th through 6th shots, but then there were a couple that drew 8 or 9 shots before they finally scurried down a hole and afterward went unmolested. At 500 yards, wind is going to play the devil with any bullet and make hits on a 2 inch by 5 inch target more luck than anything else.

Some of the 1000 yard benchrest boys will jump in and claim that they can make those type shots regularly at 1000 yards, but that's from a bench with a 30 pound rifle at a known yardage. Move the target randomly between 500 and 900 yards, with only the eyeball to guess the distance, take away the wind flags, and see how they do then.

Long range shooting can be entertaining, but in the real world it is truly a "hit and miss" venture.

J.W, Stonecreek,
I see we're on the same page. One time in Wyoming, we were prairie dog hunting in a pretty strong wind, It took 12 shots before I connected, after I figured out the wind and elevation it got easier. Thanks for your replies.
Bunnybasher,
That crow deserved to die.
Stepchild

Like it was said earlier, you only hear of the best shots made. I shot a ground squirrel at 612 yards (verified by laser from the carcass back to my van) but it took me 3 shots to get him. I shot three squirrels at 500+ yards that day, but easily missed a dozen more.

EDIT: In my case I was shooting with a wind of < 5mph coming from directly behind me. I ranged a ranch gate at 560 yards that was in front of the group of squirrels that I was shooting at, so I knew that they were about 600 yards away.

[ 08-20-2003, 18:04: Message edited by: Fjold ]

Every Time I hear a "You won't believe how far it was"; I wait to hear any mention of wind. On anything over 350 yds; if they don't mention wind; I wonder if it's not wind they're blowing.


And yardage and footage get to running together more times than not I think. Eyeball estimations are very tough unless you've done it a bunch. And "we stepped it off and were surprised to find it was XXX" tells me you didn't have a clue where you should have been holding.

[ 08-20-2003, 02:32: Message edited by: Old & Slow ]

Old & Slow,
I never had the luxury of a laser rangefinder, but I got pretty good at estimating yardage. I made it a point to pace off every shot to compare it to my estimate.
I take yardage claims with a grain of salt. I used to hunt grounghogs with a cousin in SE Ohio.(St.Clairsville area), and instead of shoving them in a hole, we brought every one home and cleaned them, and he got real upset if they weren't head shot or at least shot in the neck,as they were saved for the wild game dinner at the sportsmans club. That added to the difficuty factor, but it sure improved your skills. After a summer of that, it made hitting a deer much less of a challenge.
Thanks for your comments.
Stepchild

Last Friday pm. I ranged a groundhog at 367 yards. Dialed the Leupold 6.5-20 to the right distance, readied, held, shot....sounded good!!! Two witnesses said, You got that one!!!!" I don't count them if I can't pick them up!!! at also means blood in the hole doesn't count, YOU'VE GOT TO PICK HIM UP!!!!!!!!! Couldn't find that hog! Couldn't find any evidence of the bullet hitting the ground! Went back home to the bench, put a target on the 400 yard backstop, proceeded to shoot a 1.339 group approximately 1 inch low horizontally centered! GO FIGURE!!! Probably shooter error! Not rifle! Like has been said before, If we made every hit, it wouldn't be fun! Now that groundhog is a "Doublemint" groundhog! You double your fun because you get to shoot twice!!!! GHD

My all time personal favorites are the 500 yard running shots at dusk on big bucks that drop like a card table. Did I mention the rain.
One fellow that I know had not one; but Three of these running buck tales. The only shot of his I can confirm was a clean miss on a fork horn @ 80 - 90 yards that was standing rock still. He was shooting from an elevated permanent blind with a built in gun rest rail. This was as a guest at our club.
He "Wasn't comfortable with his New scope".

[ 08-21-2003, 09:29: Message edited by: Old & Slow ]

I really like long range p/dogs...A range finder, Leica 1200 scan is a vital to confirming range. P/dogs will usually give you quite a few shots, or one of their buddies will. When I say long range, I like 'em 800+ yds. It takes practice, you have to know your rifle, scope, scope adjustments, have a good spotter with a 20 or 25x scope, most of all know your handloads, and get lots of shootin'. I have shot around 1600+ rds this year so far, at live targets, p/dogs. Rifles are 223(s), 7-08, 6.5x308 AI, and 300 win mag. Range goes up with rifles acordingly. Dogs under 350 or so are 'seed' dogs for nxt year, unless we have a 22 Hornet or 218 Bee along. My buddy will smack some 200 yd dogs with one of these once in a while. My longest p/dog this year is 1017 yds with the 6.5mm, along with a triple one day @ 889 yds, a few @ 752 yds. The coolest shot was with 858 yds with the 300 win mag, took the head completely off one. Sent 2 of these photos to VHA for the 500 and 1000 yd club. The rifles are all Savage LR HB calibers, with decent glass, and actions trued, and SSS triggers.

Groundhog Devistation,
Probably a little puff of wind, or a defective bullet, ever heard that one?Better to have a clean miss than to make one suffer.
Dennis

A adult prarie dog body is about 3X9 inches, a pup is about half that size. Cut out some targets that size from a brown paper bag . Set the targets up and side ways at 100,200. 300 Yds etc. A rifle that groups 5 rounds within 1/2 inch will be 2 1/2 inches at 500 Yds. 3/4 inch @ 100 Yds will be about 3 inches at 400 Yds. One inch @ 100 Yds will be about 4 inches @ 400 Yds. 1 1/4 @ 100 Yds will be 4 1/2 inches at 300 Yds. What rifle and scope due you have that will put five rounds into a 3X9 inch target at 500 Yds ? What reloads ? Are my minute of angle correct ? Have fun .

Old and Slow,
Yeah I hear ya, and usually the stories get better with time.
In my 62 years it has quite a rarity to find someone that tells the truth 100% of the time.
Dennis

Armed in Utah,
You're doin better than me. The longest shot I ever made couldn't be measured because of the hills,water, etc. But it was out there pretty far(couldn't tell if it was facing me or looking away, with a 20X Lyman) and there was zero wind.I'm thinking about 600yds.
Stepchild

This was on a big groundhog.

To anyone thats interested, i'm going in for neck surgery today, giving the keyboard a rest for a little while.

Best of luck stepchild. Also, I could not believe how bad I was at guessing ranges until I got my Laser Rangefinder. It's a wonder I ever hit anything while away from the rifle range! derf

Stepchild 2: I wish your operation to be very succesful! Good luck and hurry back!
Having said that then - well back to your post. Yeah in fact you are disputing someones words by feeling the long shots are sometimes typewriter (keyboard?) generated. Thats OK to do! And I plead INNOCENT of any range enhancing statements. Mainly because I never fire at Varmints that are 600 yards away! Ever. I seldom fire at Varmints 500 yards away! The results of the 500 yard attempts is what taught me that 600 yard shots are very difficult - VERY DIFFICULT! I would much rather do most of my Varminting between 200 yards and 500 yards! Much of the Varminting I do is in wind prone country and as has been stated the wind brings into play a myriad of variables and "ifs".
So if you ever saw (or heard) me expounding on my latest 967 yard shot then you know I was B.S.'n you!
One of my favorite "distance" stories was on a trip for Rock Chucks to the high plains of the Rocky Mountains some years ago. This was before laser rangefinders were availale to Joe Varminter. There were 5 of us in two trucks and we knew there were hordes of Chucks in this particular area. We rolled up to a ranch house and spoke with the rancher. He stated he wanted all the Chucks shot and to start first on the cultivated field running north from his house that "was a quarter section wide"! Now I was the only one that picked up on that - apparently! We drove out the county road and parked on the west side of the cultivated field and sure enough the Chucks were out feeding in the grass on the east side of the field near some lava rocks. We layed out our mats at the fenceline and got set up. One of the crew asked "how far is it to that other fenceline"? Well I knew. It was 440 yards but I did not say anything, I just started shooting at Chucks! Soon others were shooting and missing and talking among themselves as the Chucks made their way to the rocks just on the other side of the far fences! I started laughing at the other guys and their conversations about the distance the Chucks were at. The Chucks had taken up hiding and scurrying around in lava rocks that were exactly 450 yards away! The guys were giving their estimates and excuses for missing about as fast as a Woodpecker can peck! The closest estimate from my shooting buddies was 550 yards. Some thought the Chucks were holed up at 700 yards! But those four somewhat experienced Hunters were wrong by at least 100 yards and as much as 250 yards! It is difficult to judge range for all of us and I have noticed over the decades that people usually overestimate range! I do not know why they just do!
With the advent of the laser rangefinders I have really been able to improve my long distance shooting on Varmints and Big Game. Long range to me is 350 to 550 yards. Someone above described 500 yards as medium range... hmmm... not for me that is long range!
Anyway as with many aspects of communicating with other human beings you have to accept the fact that humans on occassion exaggerate, distort, deceive, lie, brag and simply make mistakes when communicating!
That fact is a somewhat sad commentary on humanity but I know it to be a true!
Again good luck on your upcoming procedure!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey Varmintguy

One of us is using fuzzy math!

If I'm not mistaken, a field that "was a quarter section wide".....is 880 yards across, not 440 yards?

A quarter section is 1/2 mile long and 1/2 mile wide......."a quarter section wide" is the same as saying 1/2 mile wide....

Unless things have changed, 1 mile = 5280 feet = 1760 yards per mile.... divide that by 2 and I get 880 yards in a half mile?

VarmintGuy must get very close because of the Remington.
Mad`

GonHuntin: When it came time to venture forth and take photos of our cross field Chucks the lot of us went across and "paced" our way to the far fence. It was also an eye opener in the different totals we all came up with pacing wise. I remember having to lengthen my stride a lot to come closer to the targeted 440 paces back to our shooting point. As the mind dims with age (mine) the rancher probably phrased his request "for us to go to the section of cultivated field a quarter wide". That field of alfalfa as I recall was at least a mile long but the spot we shot from was the only one where the lava rocks broke the surface and provided a spot for Chucks to den. The rest of your math seems clear to me.
Mad: If you have something to say please do not hesitate to be specific. I guess I do not fully understand your post?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Gonhuntin you have it wrong a quarter section is 440 a half is 880. That comes from a 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile thus a quarter and half sections. Any section that I know of is a mile square. So how to you get a a half made into a quarter a quarter has always been devide by 4 a half by 2.

stepchild2, Actually the case neck was split on the round launched at the 367 yard groundhog!!!! Not going to blame it though!!! 2/3 of the case necks split in the 1.339 gtoup at 400 yards after the miss! HOWEVER!!!!! Win/OLin corp has a postage paid delivery coming to them containing 7 split necked 25-06 and also 7 split necked 243(had been blown out to 243AI) that split on the 3rd firing!!!! Just happened to have in the reloading room, the bags the brass came in! Sent thr brass and bags back to them to see what explanation they may come up with!! I also had the loading data for all the loadings prior to the neck splits! Sent that also! Probably will be about like me alerting Remington about the "hard bolt function" on their factory 180grain 300SAUM loading versus their 165 grain factory loading........"the 180 grain generates more pressure than the 165"!! Wish I could get paid to deliver such astute reasoning!!!!! A WARNING!!!!!! The 300SAUM 180 grain factory loading is bordering on dangerous!!! 19 rounds averaged 3184fps through a stock 700BDL SS! They were unplasant to shoot!There was a distinct "hard working" of the bolt using them!!! The person who buys the Model 7 in the SAUM's is a glutton for punishment!!!! However, I was pleasantly rewarded with groups that I can live with! Even shot some of the "GROOVE BULLETS"!!! I guess I can live with .500 big bore(to me, anything over .257 is BIG BORE!!)groups!! I just may have to getme one of them 7mmSAUM's and test it too!!!GHD

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it is hard brass that has not been correctly annealed causing the split necks. If you are shooting factory rifles then your brass in the neck is expanding a fair bit ( Product Liability = larger chamber neck size ); and normal dies are overworking the necks as they will be a good bit under SAAMI max die Specs. Now add stiff brass and overwork it and she splits.

Pdogshooter

You better think again!

Draw a square.....with each side a mile long.....that is a square mile

Now, draw a line from the top to the bottom dividing the square down the center. Next, draw a line from side to side through the center. These two lines should divide your original square mile into four equal parts that are also square.

Each of those parts is a quarter section and each of those parts measures 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile.

A quarter section is 1/4 of a square mile in area.....not a quarter of a mile in length.....

A square mile is 640 acres in size, a quarter section is 160 acres in size....a square piece of land, 160 acres in size MUST measure 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile...

a quarter section has nothing to do with 1/4 mile.

Get it???

The guy said "1/4 section WIDE". Give it a rest.

VarmintGuyi I was taking a jab at you and your loyalty to Remington. Didn't mean anything by it. I like reading your posts and look foreward to your biased Remington opinions. Really.

Take care, Mad`

When I was growing up in Wisconsin... we called a 40 acre parcel a "quarter"...apparently shortened from "quarter section". Folks knew that 640 (nominally) acres made a section and that there were 4 quarter sections in a section. It was just common practice to call a 40 a quarter... I guess calling it a "quarter-quarter section" was thought to be too stuttery or redundant. Even these days when I go back up there they call a 40 acre field a quarter and "know" the distance across that field to be 440 yards. As I traveled about (out west mostly) and met folks that had ranches containing full sections (some have many full sections) the term for a quarter meant 160 acres (880 yards aross). Folks I knew in Wisconsin hardly ever dreamed of owning a section of two...a few 40's, sometimes loosly attached, was fairly common.

I'd call the "quarter section" disparity a regionalism and not a deliberate falsehood.

http://www.connerprairie.org/historyonline/survey.html

DigitalDan

I was just ribbing VarmintGuy a bit......I'm sure he didn't mind! I thought it was funny that his post spoke of people who couldn't figure out a distance when they had been "told" what it was..... and then he got confused too! It happens to all of us sometimes.......

However, the fact remains, a square quarter section of land is 1/2 mile wide and 1/2 mile long.....no two ways about it.

Now, if my pointing that out offends you or somehow gets your panties in a wad.......well, just get over it! Or, maybe you still don't get it? A "quarter section wide" IS a half mile wide!

[ 08-22-2003, 17:42: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Mad: I enjoy sharing my experiences good and bad with everyone! Pardon me if I seem short - this incessant smoke here in Montana is burning up my brain cells at an accelerated rate! At least 5 weeks now of varying thickness's of this crud! My headaches come on each evening (and I NEVER get headaches!) but mysteriously they are gone in the morning. Missoula's football teams won't practice at all now - inside or outside! They are on a level #2 alert for smoke - whatever that is?. They do not want young people (kids), old people or smokers to exert themselves in any way! All other people are limited (according the the radio warning) to one hours work (exertion) per day! Headaches, stuffiness, eyestrain, lack of energy I am just not my whole self recently! Hoping for rain here in SW Montana!
Digital Dan, GonHuntin and Pdogshooter: I am a city boy originally and have never owned more than 1 acre in my life! I do not know but I am sure that rancher owned that land and he meant for us to hunt on the part that was 1/4 mile wide. Thats were the Chucks was and I know it was far as we were shooting about 25% hits on those Chucks! Next time I get down there I will laser it and let you know! I am confident it was not 880 yards wide though for sure!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,
I appreciate your kind thoughts, Got home today and other than being real sore I guess i'll be OK.
It's intesting to see the responses from my post.
I enjoy reading your posts and to see what good taste you have in rifles. I have one SAKO here(not that I couldn't find room for more) one 77 RUGER and the rest are REMINGTONS.According to some of the comments I read, You and I are extremely lucky. With all the junk that Remington reportedly puts out, that we didn't get stung.
The only objection that I have with Remington, is less than smooth barrels, but that applies to the rest as well.(Production guns)
I've heard complaints about poor bedding,lousy triggers, etc. but to me that is no big deal, I enjoy fooling with guns and to take one that has a problem and square it away in an hour or two is part of the fun.
And unless i'm missing something, Remington triggers are pretty decent,maybe not the best, but certainly not the worst. At least they have adjustment screws on them.
I guess, I got off on a tangent,oh well. ya all have a good one
Stepchild

Stepchild 2: I am glad you are home and safe! I hope the soreness eases quickly!
Oohh do I love Sakos! They are just to expensive anymore! I have owned quite a number of them in the past but currently I just have 3! All heavy barrels. One has an exquisite custom Varmint style stock on it done by Jim Cloward of the Seattle area (I heard he recently retired!). Anyway they are in calibers 222 Remington, 222 Remington Magnum and I have a single shot in 6mm PPC! That PPC is just sensationally accurate! For instance with Varmint bullets its last sight in check gave me a .226" five shot group at 100 yards! Last February I shot my best group ever (so far anyway!) with it = .212" for five shots at 100 yards! This group was made with Nosler 70 gr. Ballistic Tips! I have only had this Rifle one year and one month now. It is just amazingly consistently accurate! It was expensive though! Sadly I got the Rifle from an estate that had been in limbo for some years! The previous owner had bought the Rifle mounted a Leupold 24X scope on it, bought 100 Sako brass for it as well as a set of Wilson in line dies and a set of Bonanza Bench Rest dies for it! But he died before he got to use any of it! All the gear, gun and brass was unused and unfired. I literally have only tried three different loads in this Rifle and they ALL shot really well! The asking price for the Rifle, scope and all gear was $1,250.00. I paid $1,000.00 for it (with trepidation) but I should not have hesitated. It has been an excellent rig and whenever I get some mad money ahead I am going to take that 24X off and save it for just doing load development on future Rifles! I want to put a 6.5X20 Leupold on the Sako 6mm PPC or if I can find one I love the Leupold 8.5X25X40mm's for Varminting! Hopefully I can have that done by next years Colony Varmint seasons!
Yeah I love them Sakos but good deals on them are few and far between anymore and I seem to be able to gather up mad money enough for Remingtons much quicker than I can for Sako's.
Glad you are home stepchild 2!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Glad to hear that you will be alright Stepchild.
To you guys in Montana I have some small idea of what you are going through. I also have a cyberfriend in Glen and talk to him most every day. We could use a boatload of rain up here in Southern BC as well. derf

Varmint Guy, Derf,
Thanks for the kind words. It kinda looks like i've been in a hatchet fight and left mine home.
The name, Jim Cloward rings a bell, isn't he a benchrester? My Sako is in .222, also a benchrest model,with a Douglas XX BBL, 12X Leupold and what a little sweetheart. I used to have a .222 Mag also (40x, 24Leupold) extremely accurate but weighed about 14#. Speaking of high power scopes(i'm down to one), I found them to be a pain at times, like hazy mornings,mirage filled days, pretty useless at times.
Hope you guys get the rain you need.
Stepchild

Fun string to read. Especially the 1/4 thing. I agree that regionalism's override any facts involved.

Long shots? Don't really care for them. Too much like a "slop shot" in pool, where one bangs the cue ball into a cluster and serendipity allows several balls to pocket. I'd much rather pick me a target, calculate the angles, cue ball spin and speed - pocket the objective cleanly and leave the cue ball set up for the next shot.

YMMV

Mike TBC

quote:

---

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Not to dispute anyones word, but it seems that some of the shots I read about may be keyboard generated.
I've done a fair amount of varmint hunting,ground hogs, prairie dogs, crows, etc.
I have always had top notch equipment(40x's,20-24x, quality scopes), but regardless, i've had my share of misses.Crows at 500+ yds. are damned small targets. And then there is the wind, and All bullets are affected by a cross wind,some more than others.It seems the wind always blows in the West and most other places as well.
Maybe a weather station, and a lap top would help. What are your thoughts?
Stepchild

---

[ 08-28-2003, 21:39: Message edited by: The Birth Controller ]

I think some of the hits that were once in a lifetime become do it all day long with a keyboard. Then again I dropped my Coleman lantern in the lake in the winter and found it that summer---still burning. Will blow the lantern out if some of the all day long keyboard groups were stretched out a little.

Carpetman,
My sentiments exactly
Stepchild

I held the long range woodchuck record for over thirty years in our group. One of the guys and I had one of those greatest shoots of a lifetime back about 1970 and I nailed a chuck at what seemed to be very long range on the third shot. The rifle was a M 70 Varminter in 243 with a 15X Unertl Ultra Varmint and I was shooting 75 gr Sierras at 3600. My buddy tells them all that the range was about 700 yds. I thought that was kind of far but what the heck!

This spring us old timers made in back to the exact same spot in Vermont and this time I had a Leica 1200. The same field is there and as far as it could be is 500 yds or less. The actual spot is hard to duplicate as trees have grown up but it must have been close to 450 yds.

I shoot a 6.5-.308 with 100 grain Sierra Varmint at 3270. Scope is a US Optics 6-30x58 with a 35mm tube.

Secret to long shots is the calibration of the knob to the round. I move the targets farther and farther out and check the range with my laser. When I get it sighted in for that range I mark the knob with a vibratory engraver.

Now when I go out in the field I range the dogs with the laser and dial in the range and hold on. In normal winds the hold up wind is between 0 and 1 mil.

With the 30x variable, PDs at 400 look positively enormous. At 700, they do look a little smaller, about .2 to .3 mils. This is not rocket science and it is repeatable.

D.



[ 09-03-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: DMCI* ]