Does a .17 Centerfire have enough juice to be humane on Coyotes? I'm pushing a 25gr bullet about 3200fps. A pretty mild load.

Works real well on Prarie Dogs. Would it anchor a Coyote under 200 yards, or should I stick with .223 there?

I would want more velocity out of a .17 for a tough old coyote than 3200 fps. Suggest you go with your .223 or find a stouter load than what you are currently using. Which .17 centerfire did you say, any of them below the Mach IV are a bit light, in my opinion, of course.

Yes, 3200fps. is very much on the low side for coyotes. I have 2, both 17Rems. With my loads I shoot the 25gr. Hornadys at 3800 and 4050fps. depending on with gun I use. Even with this increased velocity there are still a nunber of runners even with perfectly placed shots. In country with any type of knee high ground cover(such as CRP land or sage) the coyotes can be very tough to find as there is usually no blood trail. YOU will recover MORE dogs with a 22/250.
Call em in close____Pete

i would use something bigger. song dogs can be tough. just my 2 bits.

Hello
For authoritative discussion of the 17 Remington on coyotes, go to
www.coyotegods.com

I've shot a bunch of coyotes with my .17 Rem. I've yet to lose one and honestly never had one run more than a few steps. All of the shots were under 200 yards (called them in). Can't say I haven't missed but I've shot some a little far back and they still fall.
Get some faster fodder, though. I've had very few exit wounds so follow up on a runner would be tough.
This round is great for fur. I've used it on coons, jackrabbits, bobcats, groundhogs, and all the little critters. I really like it. Rarely do I pull the 22-250 out.
My main drawback is high wind and obstructions. The bullet will "blow up". The positive side is that a lot of landowners will let you shoot nearer buildings, equipment, and even livestock once you educate them on bullet performance- few if any riccochets.
This comes from hunting coyotes in the deserts of CA, AZ and the woods of IN, IL, and FL.
Quite frankly, the Rem factory loads have done as good a job as most reloads. Maybe I'm just lucky and have jinxed myself by writing this but I've yet to have a problem with barrel fouling, lost accuracy, or poor bullet performance given the normal constraints of the round.
FWIW,
Jeff

Yeah, go to www.coyotegods.com. They know all about 'yote shooting with the .17 Rem and anything else with that caliber. See S. Frame's section on technical stuff and John Henry's on the more esoteric facets of life. They sure know their stuff, that's why they're GODS.

I have never been impressed with that site. Heaven forbid you say something like , " I like to shoot coyotes with a 220 swift." They will either shoot you down, or delete your post. Their ignorance is abit much for my pallet. I still think a .17 is marginal for dog hunting. At least here this post wont be deleted.

Hvyw8t, I agree. Seems if you're not exactly on their side of the fence, you better look for greener pastures. I love my .17 Remington, but I don't think the sun rises and sets on it's existence.

I guess I simply like a little more variety in my life. Depending on my mood for the day, the terrain I'm hunting, the time of year, or if I'm calling or spotting and stalking predators, I'll bounce between a .17 Remington, .222, .223, or a .22-250.

Dave R, I think the key to success with the .17 Remington is to keep the ranges within reason (depends on your shooting skill, hunting terrain, and comfort level) and make dang sure of your shot placement. For coyotes, I'd also suggest boosting the velocity to somewhere between 3800 and 4200fps. I shoot the 25gr Hornady's at roughly 3800fps, and I have yet to loose a coyote, and very few have moved from the point of impact. Most act as if they've been pole-axed!

Your pet load at 3200fps might be just the ticket for a fur friendly load when hunting foxes.

[ 05-04-2003, 04:29: Message edited by: Buster ]

Buster,
You just about said it all. I bounce around with the guns I use for calling, including the 17Rem. One day I use my 222Sako, next one of my 2-223s, or maybe 1 of a couple 22/250s or my Swift. I also thump coyotes with my 6mm or 25/06. The deal is I love coyote calling with just about anything.
Some guys say they use the 17s because they are easy on fur. If I want to make a $$$ I work a few more hours in my shop. NOBODY is getting rich skinning coyotes. Like other people I like shooting my 17s but when I and a couple of friends going calling with them we either pass on some shots or spend time doing alot of looking.
Pete

I've gone through a # of coyote rigs over the years, and my hands down favorite for FUR hunting is the .17 cal. with the heavier 30 grainers, although, at least for me, the .223 and bigger case capacities are sure nice with the lighter bullets also. I believe that a good 40 gr. bullet out of the .22-250/Swift capacity is a better killer than the .17, but again not quite as nice to fur, and since we're on the subject, although i've never used one yet, i've certainly been impressed with what i've heard and read about the hyper-velocity .20's as well. But if you're into fur i must say that after processing an awful lot of it over the years, there's something to be said about having to spending very little time at the sewing table.

SSCOYOTE said it all I agree with him 1000% if you wont to keep the fur and kill them stone dead You cant beat the 17 rem. To date I have killed around 300 coyotes with the 17rem. When the weather gets cold thats all I use.

The 17 sure is nice when you happen to have a fox or bobcat come to the call I dont know of anyone who just shoots a cat and leaves it and those 22cals are enough to make you cry after hitting a cat at close range imagine a 243 or 25-06 on one

You know Hawkeye, a buddy of mine shot a cat once at about 150 yds. with a 6-284 70 gr. Nosler B.T. @ about 3900 f.p.s. The bullet hit the big tom right between the eyes. It blew him several feet back into the dry ravine i'd called him out of. The bullet went thru his head and neck and lodged in the shoulder-- no exit. Talk about lucky. i thought for sure i was gonna be sewin' for days, that is if i could've found all the pieces.

A previous poster stated "Nobody is getting rich skinning Coyotes" I agree its a tough way to get Rich allright. However my Fur Check this past season was a little over $3000! The question here is: Would you rather make the $3000 at work or make it out Huntin Dogs? Also for called Coyotes? Nothing beats a .17Rem, .17DT, or the .17 Predator. I didnt get the 3 Grand watching my Fur run off!

Good point, Blaine!

Yeah, I can see that my 3200fps load is too light. I just don't think my lil' Martini Cadet can handle the 4000fps loads. Its a pretty small rifle, and I get sticky extraction much above 3200fps.

Blaine, on your .17DT-- why did you shorten the PPC case? Why not just use it full length? Also, what do you think about the .20"s??

[ 05-10-2003, 14:55: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

Dave R., what .17 caliber is your Martini Cadet chambered for? I assumed you were shooting a .17 Remington, but now I realize that might not be the case.

SSCoyote
As you know the PPC is a very efficient little case, But in the .17 PPC it is somewhat overbore. and in my 24" Shilen I simply would not have been able to benefit from the extra capacity of the full length .17 PPC. I shortened the PPC .100" which gave it a capacity slightly LESS than the .17 Rem, However! Due to its efficient Design, and the cases ability to resist higher pressures than the standard .17 Rem case, I can exceed .17 Rem velocities in the 24" Barrel length. And the .17DT is a very accurate cartridge. I really like the .20 Cals but have been waiting for a bullet to come out! Something in the way of a scaled up 30 Gold at around 35-40grns. Either the .20PPC,.20BR or the Tact.20. The Lucas 40's and 45's are very close but i prefer a non-rebated boatail design myself. His little 15gr BTHP's in .14 Cal shoot perty good in my .14-221 Walker. They look like scaled down 30 Golds! Do you have any plans for a .20 in a long range handgun?

Buster, I do not know the offical name for my cartridge, and neither does RCBS, when I sent them some cases. So I don't feel so bad. Its a .357mag pistol case necked down to .17 I inherted the rifle and some brass and one die. A kind member of this forum made me some more brass, and a kind friend made me a seat/crimp die.

The cartridge will hold enough powder to get the higher velocities, but the sticky extraction on the Martini worries me, so I keep it down. I use 12.5gr of 4198 and a 25gr bullet. Its great for Prarie Dogs...

[ 05-10-2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Dave R ]

Dave R., sounds like a cool combination you have there. I've never heard of such a cartridge, but that's not saying much because I'm sure there's a ton of wildcats out there that I'm not familiar with. I'd keep the velocities where you're at and maybe try it on a couple of coyotes and see what happens.

The only problem I see with owning a .17 caliber rifle is you'll never be happy with just one. I started out with a .17 Remington, and I've added two .17HMR's, with plans for a .17 Mach IV and a .17 AH when funds allow. I'm always on the lookout for a suitable actions.

Dave, glad to see your out shooting your little toy. 17 saunders jet is the most common name for it.
I have shot 5-6 coyotes with a 17 hornet, 25/3400 fps. It killed them all fine, but the range was never more then 150 yds. On three, the bullet exited on broadside shots I remember.
You should be able to get at least a little more vel without sticky extraction ... did you try a slower burning powder? 4198 is about as fast as I'd go with a case that size.

TSJ, that's the only powder I've tried Thanks for the tip; I'll try a slower powder. Any suggestions?

$3000 for 3 months work no matter who much fun you have isn't very good. All you guys need to take a look at HuntMasters BBS. This is just another disagreement like the one I went through with the CoyoteGods a coulpe of years back. There's two sides to the story. Pete

Perhaps Its Just A Labor Of Love! which just some will never quite understand!

Dave, try H322 or H335, both will flow well into that 17 cal neck, and are much slower then 4198. I see good results in the data I sent you with either one.

Thanks, TSJ. I have the data, will try a different powder next time.

Blaine thankes for the reply. i don't think i'll be doing a 20 cal project with the XP. i've been considering a big 6mm in one though, or maybe a .25-- i haven't decided yet.

SSCoyote
How big a 6 are you talking? Please keep me informed! Thanks

Blaine, i'm probably going to go with a .284-based case. The WSM's look appealing but of course the expansion ratio is going to put a serious damper on any significant increase in velocity out of a 16" barrel without sacrificing a lot of barrel life, in fact, the .284 case itself is probably pushing it. The gun will double as a high-mt. rockchucker.

Dave R.: I have killed several Coyotes with my slow poke 17 MachIV. It shoots the Berger 25 gr. MEF (moly-coated) at 3,527 FPS. The Coyotes I have shot have all been one shot kills and fell immediately! I am wondering what you are shooting to get your 17 with 25 grainers down to 3,200 FPS - is it some type of pistol or 17 Hornet! I would think about limiting the range though with that low a velocity. Maybe 200 yardish! If you can get some of the 25 gr. Berger MEF's - try them. Like I say I sure like them in my 17 MachIV at 3,527 FPS.
Good luck.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmitGuy, its a Martini Cadet. Not a terribly strong action, from what I hear.

Barrel length is 22" OAL. Bullet length is 1 and 11/16, so just under 20.5" of barrel ahead of a loaded bullet.

I'm getting sticky extraction above 3200fps. No sign of flattened primers, but the empties just don't want to come out of the chamber until it cools for a minute or so.

As TSJ suggested, I'm going to try a slower-burning powder.

Dave R: I had time just now to read all the posts above and I have a grip on things now. I am pretty sure you can kill Coyotes at 100 yards easily with the 25 gr. Berger MEF's out of your rig at 3,200 FPS.
Good luck with your Rifle and let me know how it does on your first Coyote!
I am just now bringing up to speed a Ruger 77/17V in caliber 17 HMR it does wonderfully well on Ground Squirrels and I will find out pretty soon how it does for me on Badgers and Coyotes! It is shooting the 17 gr. 17 caliber bullets at 2,550 FPS or so.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, let me save you a little time. I've had bad experiences with the .17HMR on a coyote and a couple of badgers. I shot a coyote at about 30 paces with a .17HMR, and all he did was flinch, yelp, and run off. I think my shot may have been a little high and far back, but with a centerfire, he would've been in the freezer.

A while back, a buddy and I came across a whole herd of badgers, yes a herd of four badgers. These were all full grown, and running together. I put three rounds of .17HMR into the lead badger, and two into the second, and all I accomplished was slowing them down so my buddy could finish them with his .22-250.

Now don't get me wrong, I love my .17HMR's (Ruger 77/17 and a Marlin 17V), but I think they're best suited toward jackrabbits, prairie-dogs, pot-guts, ground squirrels, starlings, pigeons, etc.. I know there are guys who have killed coyotes, bobcats, etc. with the .17HMR, but I also know there are Eskimos who hunt polar bears with .22's!

Somebody mentioned earlier about a .357 Mag case necked down to .17. Dick Saunders wrote a pamphlet on the .17's a # of years ago, and had that one in it. If you're interested i'll try to find out where you can get it.

Looked at a .17HMR the other day and am considering getting it or another one. It is a Marlin, bolt, with Weaver bases and a heavy barrel for $200. Does this sound like a good gun to "break in my teeth" with? I would use it mostly for target shooting. I load for my 06 now with 45-50 gr. of powder. Seems like I can get twice as many loads out of a pound if 25gr. is useable.

Buster: I appreciate the heads up on your Coyote and Badger experiences with the 17 HMR. Those Badgers can be a handful to try and stop before they get down a burrow. I often see them in the Ground Squirrel fields when all I have for firepower is a Ruger 10/22. My standard procedure then is to try for a head shot and quickly follow up with 4 or 5 more very rapidly fired shots into the chest area. Last year I did kill a Badger with one shot with a 22 Magnum and Winchester Hollowpoints. It is a bolt action Marlin and I was rapidly working the bolt when I noticed the big Badger had ceased movement with the head shot.
I did read somewhere on a cyber space chat board that a 17 HMR user had killed something like 18 Coyotes with 22 shots this past winter. I will try and find that and let you know. The Fox around here are pretty dainty and I am sure the 17 HMR would put them down. Maybe I will content myself to Hunt them with my new 17 HMR!
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmitGuy, I'm not an expert, but I can see where the .17HMR wold be too light for Badger or Coyote. 17gr bullet at 2800 fps is a big step down from a 25gr bullet going 3200-4200fps.

SSCoyote, I tried to find Saunders pamphlet, but was unsuccesful. I even reached Dick Saunders on the phone! He didn't have any. And honestly could not remember which of the many .17 wildcats bore which name. He couldn't tell me if the .17/357 was the Saunders Jet or not. Most folks who give me a name seem to think that's it.

Anyway, its awesome for prarie dogs! Went out after work today and thinned the herd a bit. Some nice aerials...some mist effect...

Sorry Dave R., just looked up the info. in his pamphlet, and the only thing interesting i could find was the wildcats he made from the old .22 Jet case. Nothing on the .357. According to his data though he was getting velocities in excess of 4200 f.p.s. out of that case from the 25 gr. Horn.!! Blaine, any comments on this?? Dave what kind of velocities are you getting out of that .357? Why don't you write up something about it in Small Calber News?? I (and many others) would love to read about it!!!

sscoyote, earlier in the thread I reported that I am loading this .17/357 to only 3200fps. The original owner said he loaded it to 3800fps. The cartridge is capable of holding more powder, but the rifle is an old Martini Cadet, which is not a terribly strong action. When I talked to Dick Saunders about it, he cautioned me to use a light load.

Using 4198 powder, I have played with loads from 13.5gr (what the previous owner used) down to 12.5 gr. At 13.5 gr and 13 gr. I was getting sticky extraction. At 12.5 gr, I get 3200fps, and no extraction issues. Accuracy is very good there, too. I get 1.5" groups at 200 yards. Accuracy was nearly that good at 13.5gr, and noticeably worse at 13 gr.

TSJ here advises that 4198 is a really fast powder, and using a slower powder would let me get more velocity with less pressure. I'm going to try that.