Here's the problem VarmintGuy, You have completely gotten away from what the original post was all about. You go on a rant about 1000BR guns then you tell me you know how much they cost. If you know, why in the hell did you bring it up? The man wants an accurate rifle for less than $700 that's all.
"savage dance around reality." <- What's that all about anyway? your arguing with yourself. Slow down, take a deep breath, it's gonna be OK. Don't get so worked up over what somebody else post's. It's not worth all the typing and frankly it makes you look immature.
If you don't agree with something I've written, just say so in a few words.Peace

[ 04-18-2003, 07:59: Message edited by: TC1 ]

Geeze Guys, I find myself wanting to say, that's nice children , don't fight. I personally tune out anyone who's convinced he's got all the answers, I find them extremely boring! As to the original question asked by Sean, who it appears was chased off, perhaps by what sure looks like rudeness from a distance. I really don't have a dog in this fight, except perhaps for the fact that I have at least one of all the above mentioned rifles which I'm fond of. I understood the original question to be a quest for an inexpensive accurate varmint rifle. Sorry VarmintGuy ,thats a Savage. My 112BVSS .25-06 (Canjar trigger, not stock)shoots ,no poop, 1/2 inch groups all day long . I got a good deal on it at a touch under$400.00 bucks. With the exception of a couple tweaked 788's I haven't got a Remington in my safe's (and I got a bunch of em) that will shoot with that Savage for the money ,period! I've read more than a few places the new accu-trigger is one of the nicest ever put in a factory rifle, I don't know that for sure, but I do know that "contempt prior to investigation" is proof of a closed mind. I definately agree with VarmintGuy that Remingtons are a better investment if that's what your into. The reason?--also clearly pointed out by VarmintGuy--- SAVAGES ARE UGLIER THAN HOMEMADE SIN!!! But that don't mean they don't shoot. To quote the late great Col. Townsend Whelen, "The only interesting rifle is an accurate rifle!" Ugly or not they shoot , and to a guy on a tight budget that's frequently all that matters. Anyone who doesn't believe they are accurate try a little reality check, call Sinclair International, any accuracy minded reloader knows who they are( the name Fred Sinclair ring any bells?) after they answer, ask whoever your talking to how many 112 Savages the employees there have . I'm guessing they don't make much money,but with what they do for a living I'm also guessing they don't shoot inaccurate rifles. I think I'll get off my soapbox now and get to the point. If they all cost the same I'd get the Remington, on a budget , especially if that accu-trigger is all they say, Savages shoot great ( they are ugly, but my ego can handle it ). I also think every one got so involved in mine is better than your's they missed a real pearl posted by Cowboy77845 ---Check out the CZ!!!!! their economy isn't what ours is , and they are selling a bunch of gun for the money. Maybe they just want to buy into our market before they raise their price, whatever, they sure shoot, good trigger, nice wood, what's not to like?. "Can't we all just get along" just kidding.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

TC1: I certainly have not gotten away from what the original posting was about! I have given facts and figures, experiences and observations and just the latest written proof the Remington bolt action is superior to the savage! That being the overwhelming written record of the just completed success's by Remington at the Missoula 1,000 yard BR shoot! Do your "savage dance" around that if you need to but the fact remains those people are free to buy any Rifle and/or action they want to make their super accurate, strong, reliable and safe shooters on! And THE FACT is (as stated before and you can not refute!) the written record shows 44 Remington entries to 1 savage entry! And if I am reading the written record correctly the savage was given no score and the initials "DQ" were listed where the scores for other contestants were located. Do not take this one gatherings statistics as your only example. Check any sporting Rifle competition (high power, silhouette etc.) and the Remingtons will be used much more often than the savage! I have already done this so please inquire and inform yourself.
Better yet check the ultra long range Varminters the ones who shoot the exceptionally long distances. Virtually none of them use savage Rifles for this discipline!
Buzz: I have been impressed by the Remingtons I have bought lately (please see the posting I made elsewhere on this board regarding all my recent Remington purchases and the results of their accuracy tests and load devlopment) especially with their triggers, looks and accuracy! I have a top of the line Schrader trigger gauge and have used it extensively for more than 2 decades. I have yet to find a Remington bolt action trigger that I can not safely adjust to an ultra crisp 32 ounces! Two months ago I adjusted my brand new Remington 700 221 Fireball Classic's trigger down to 32 ounces with zero creep and no slamfires! This Rifle has the J-lock system and I own it and can show it to any interested party! I am not saying your special Remington belonging to some one else did not slamfire at 5 pounds or whatever it was but I am saying I have never seen such a thing! And I have tested and adjusted a whole heck of a lot of Remington triggers! Just two weeks ago I adjusted the trigger on a Remington 700 VS in caliber 220 Swift that I had just purchased. I adjusted that trigger down to 32 ounces and it was perfectly crisp no creep and worked safely! I then decided to adjust it back up to 40 ounces as it will be dedicated to Montana winter/night Coyote and Fox Hunting! Gloves are used in this pariticular type Hunting quite often (safety first) so the addition of the extra half pound pull was quickly and easily accomplished. The first load development load out of that Rifle by the way gave me a 5 shot 100 yard group of .430"! That was done with unfireformed brass and Speer Coyote killing bullets! As soon as the wind lets up and the rain quits I will be back out to my range and I fully expect that Rifle to give me a group under .40" at 100 yards!
I have not been impressed with the savages I have handled recently at all - and I will not buy them! They are crapola of the first order and if you can get the ugly things to shoot to your satisfaction then suit yourself. I have many Remingtons that are factory stock (except for the trigger adjusting that anyone can do) that shoot better than your savage! I will say your savage is shooting pretty well but very often eclipsed by my Remingtons, those belonging to my Varminting friends and those of people I see shooting at the ranges and in the felds where I frequent. Two years ago I bought my teenage son a Remington 700 stainless steel detachable box magazine Rifle in caliber 25/06 REMINGTON! This is his Antelope and Deer Hunting rig. This Rifle and that shooter shoot factory Remington ammunition into groups consistently under one inch at 100 yards for 5 shots. It is a beautiful Rifle, is holding its value and is quite accurate as is! Once we use up our ample supply of factory ammuntion (five boxes) and begin tuning that Rifle with handloads I am sure it will shoot under 3/4" groups.
By the way gentle readers I own many other brands of centerfire guns I use for Varminting including Weatherby, Sako, Winchester, Kimber, Ruger (both Model 77's and #1's) and T/C. They all perform well and reliably but the Remingtons have the edge both in accuracy and all around values over these brands as well! These brands are pleasing to own and use and are pleasant to look at and pretty good investments. You will notice that not one savage Rifle graces my arsenal at this time.
savage dancers dance on! That is what it is all about! Your refusal to admit that a brand that outsells your clubs by more than 10 to 1 (even though it costs somewhat more!) is not as good a value! You are simply dancing around reality! Because the reality is Remingtons are a better value investment, and gun, than the savage! How do you argue with the incredible sales of the Remington Rifle then! Mass hysteria? More "savage dancing" that! That is as succinct a definition to the "savage dance" as I can give. If you are blind to that then do the "savage dance blindly"! As long as you are happy and blissed out then stay that way! But don't tell me the sky is green when it is blue and expect me to let you get away with it! Like I said from time to time of my own choosing I will debunk your incorrect assumptions and perceptions with facts and reality based experiences. I hope you won't take offense at that! By the way gents I will breathe at the pace I choose and type at the rate and length I choose! You will have no more luck choosing my breathing rate and my typing duration than you have had with your preposterous theory trying to convince anyone that savage Rifles are in any way better than Remingtons!
Long live the reign of Remington over savage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

if you dont know how to adjust the Rem trigger it would slam fire at 20 lbs.If you adjust the sear over the edge it wont even cock,but thats your fault not the triggers.

geez Varmint Guy , that's quite a rant on this thread . I get a chuckle out of your assertion that Reminton has spent big bucks to develope all those cartridges for shooters out of the goodness of their hearts . Hell , all they have mostly done over the years is copy from the work that wildcatters had done before them . 22/250 , 25/06 , .35 Whelen , 7mm magnum , 6mm , nearly the whole list.Hardly any bucks were spent on the developement work . About the only original they have come up with on their own was the .222 series of cases , and then the military footed the bill for the .222 mag and the .223 .

The fact is , the Remington action was originally designed to be built cheaply and undersell the competition . That is plain to see with the tubular reciever , flat washer recoil lug , brazed together bolt and other cost cutting features . The fact that they are usually accurate is almost an accident , I believe .

Due to Remington's marketing genuis , you cannot now usually buy the varmint models of that cheaply designed action for less than the $700 discussed here (brand new) .

If you want an accurate low dollar varmint buster (the original question of this thread) , the fact is , the Savage is tough to beat , despite all your ranting. They have out Remingtoned Remington in the cheap design that turns out to shoot well department .

[ 04-18-2003, 17:12: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Men
One day at my gun club,a bunch of us were having
a good time shooting rifles.One rifle we were all
shooting was a friend of mine's 25.06.The groups
we all shot at 100 yards averaged @ 1".Of course
some of the guys who were not as good were bigger,
but none over 1 1/2".None less than 3/4".
Another member of the club,arrived at the
range.Now Mike is the real deal retired Navy SEAL.Not the wanna be type.
George the owner of the 25.06 says "hey Mike shoot
a group with this rifle.Mike bellies up to the bench and proceeds to shoot a 7 shot group that you could cover with @ 1/2 dime.Looks like a ragged hole.
One of the guys there says "damn that gun shoots good."
Mike said "they all shoot good."

Meanwhile back at the ranch some like blonds,you like brunettes,someone else redheads.

Some like 'em all.Get what you like.
My .02
Jeff

With all this arguing I figure that the Remington and Savage are about the same, kind of like the Chevy/Ford thing. Jeff Quinn had good luck with the Savage that he tested. http://www.gunblast.com/Savage_12BVSS.htm

You have many stock "Remingtons" that shoot better than 1.5" to 2.0" (5 shot groups) at 300 yards? I don't doubt your claim, I just personally never see any at the range. The fact is that it's luck to get a rifle that shoots that good from the factory, especially when you are just talking about shooting with a Harris bipod and one sandbag under the rear of the rifle. The cartridge mine is chambered in (.25-06) has never been known to set any accuracy records either.

I probably should have mentioned that the rifle I was hyping will consistently shoot 5 rounds in the .3"s with an 85g BT and aound .5" with 100g bullets. The groups I quoted are shot in a valley between mountains and there is almost always a 5 to 10 mph wind. I am sure if I could ever get a calm day the groups would even be a little tighter.

I also have a stock sporter weight barreled .270 that will do right at 2" at 300 yards using a 9x scope shooting 150g BTs. It has averaged about 5/8" at 100 yards for the course of almost 2000 shots. The only drawback about that rifle is that it tends to be rather picky with loads.

I do not shoot 1000 yard benchrest matches so 2" at 300 yards is without a doubt good enough for me.

Sean,that is the gun I'm talking about and one of the wringouts of it with the new accu-trigger.They are able to shoot rather well. I use factory loads and can't shoot to these guys levels so I only get 1/2" groups but as you can see with handloads these guys can shoot 1/4" no problem.Glad all the wrangling didn't put you off,I see your doing your homework so will make an informed decison.Later.

woods

[ 04-19-2003, 00:55: Message edited by: woodseye ]

Just found this board and was reading this thead and had to put my 2cents in . I had upto 2 grand to spend on a varmint rifle this spring. I have friends with all the major brands of rifles
[ruger, winchester, remingtons, savage] so I bought some ammo and tried them all. I bought the savage 12FLVSS with the new trigger {took 6weeks to get the left hand model} off a sand bag rest it put 5 shots in one ragged hole . the accu-trigger is amazing. I took the money I saved and bought me a 111Fl savage in 338win mag it took me 15 minutes to adjust it trigger down to the 3-4 pound range . it is crisp and has NO!!!creap it is better than any of the varmint rifles I barrowed to try. I have over 40 fire arms and the savage triggers are best of the group b.t.w another friends .223 handi-rifle out shot the remington, ruger,and winchester beauty is in the eye of the beholder. seeing a groundhog 200 yards away do a perfect backflip when hit center mass is beautiful thing

Hi Guys I'm new to the site but I am an in the market for an accurate rifle in 243win for Springbuck shooting and am looking at the Ruger KM77VT, What are your thoughts?

By the way if you are looking for great Monolthics we have a guy in South Africa Gerard Schultz at GS Custom who makes a superb product at a good price and supplies the US
www.gscustom.co.za

sdgunslinger: I am sorry to see you joining the "savage dance around reality"! As a matter of fact you have taken it to ridiculous new heights! Remington has "accidental accuracy"! That man, is beyond bizarre! And if you think that "devoloping and marketing" new commercial cartridges is not expensive then you simply are so unaware or niave regarding the present day capitalistic marketing system and the expenses therein that no amount of reality will bring you back! Just to debunk ONE of your outrageously incorrect comments regarding Remingtons very commendable cartridge experimentation and development! Do you actually think the US Military bought and tooled up their own brass making dies for the 223 Remington? Or the 222 Remington Magnum? No man get hold of your self! Remington did that and made the reamers and designed their barrel making equipment for those (and so many other) cartridges. Giving them the proper twist and such! I reiterate my prior assertion that Remington has done the shooting sports a fantastic favor by doing so much research and development and then MARKETING such wonderful Remington proprietary cartridges. To deny this is simply futile and a part of the "savage dance around reality" that belittles anyone naive enough to do so! Again I request from anyone THE LAST cartridge the people at savage developed, designed or brought back to common use!
sdgunslinger - I am wondering if the fine arms from Remington are "accidentally" attractive and handsome? How bout this one the Remingtons are "accidentally" very safe? And their triggers turned out by "accident" to be so highly thought of and "accidentally" used by so many accuracy buffs and competitors? And its just an "accident" that so many times more Remingtons are sold every year than savages! And its just an "accident" of circumstance that ALL custom Riflesmiths would rather build their custom Rifles on Remington actions rather than a savage!
I spent the weekend working and travelling doing a one way prisoner escort. I had occassion to stop in at several Gunshops and sporting goods stores. To begin with the Remingtons outnumbered the savages on every stores shelf by a significant margin! At the "Axmens" Shop in Missoula, Montana for instance it was 10 new Remingtons to 1 new Savage! A couple of shops had NO savages at all! I asked about this and the proprieters answers were "not much call for them" and we special order THOSE! In all shops I saw and inquired about the costs of Remingtons! There were several Varmint models under $700.00. I only heard of one Remington Varmint model that could be purchased for more than $700.00!
The shops that did have the savage Rifles in them I of course inspected them and rejected them as quickly as as I have so many times before! Their "presence" is simply a failure! Then I tried their triggers and YUCK is what comes to mind!
Don't any of you guys hesitate to do some more "savage dancing around reality" as its becoming nearly as funny as old Seinfeld episodes!
Long WILL Remington reign over savage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Buy A Remington and you can be just like VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy , all I can do is grin from ear to ear at your latest rant .

It just so happens I just now stopped by a gunshop on my way home and looked at several varmint model rifles . He had a Remington stainless/laminate priced at $725 . A comparable Savage stainless laminate was $569 . I don't doubt these prices are high and there is room for negotiation , but the fact remains the Savage is a better bargain if you need to work within a limited budget .

The Savage had the new accutrigger , and it was very nice . Out of the box ,much better than the Remington..........

Woodeye your right VG you suck!!!

Won't get into this ball of crap. I own a Savage and I'm happy. Don't want a Remington. Period.
However, I must caution everyone to always be skeptical of people that are always trying to qualify themselves as the expert and know it all.
Statistics? Also be cautious. If we went by statistics we'd have a Liberal Gore as president. "Yuk".
Varmint Guy, your colors are showing through.
Mad`

In a varmint or tactical genre, I prefer Remington... always will.

BUT, for the man who is looking for an economical off-the-shelf varmint rifle with the greatest level of inherent accuracy, I would have to recommend the Savage.

Regardless of what dyed-in-the-wool Remington afficionados are willing to admit to, the Savage is very rapidly making its place in history as giving the workin' man a hell of a lot of accuracy for the dollar spent.

I spend a lot of time at the range, and I mean the real range - not the 100 yard starting point. There is no doubt in my mind that the average out-of-the-box Savage will generally outshoot its Remington equivalent.

But maybe that's only a Wyoming phenomenon

And, no, I don't own a Savage. I simply recognise reality.

Regards to all,

well i am not wanting to join in the mudsling on anybody's gun.i have several remingtons,several savages,a few wichesters and two CZ 550's.once i worked the triggers over in the savages they were hard to beat! the remingtos are all older guns,my favorite are the F.S. models.they shoot very well also.but the two newer remingtons just do not have the quality in them they used to.the savages might not hold their value ,but sure shoot fine once you have worked the triggers down.the CZ are probally as well made of factory gun out of the box of any of them to my way of looking at it.they sure have it hands down in quality to me.close fitting wood, with beautiful grain and the set trigger that is very hard to beat in M.H.O. but hell if it shoots when you pull the trigger how could you not like it????? there are very few guns i wouldn't care to own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
muskrat

"Whatever enables us to go to war, secures our peace." --Thomas
Jefferson

"The only interesting rifle is an accurate rifle"---Col. Townsend Whelen---Shoot Safe--montdoug

Oh-oh! Looks like the "savage dancers" have been reduced to pettiness and have given up on trying to refute reality with anything but "snotty" remarks! LOL!
I submit not one person has dared to refute that Remingtons outsell savages 10 to 1! Not one person has dared to refute the fact that Remingtons are used in all manner of competitions at least 10 times more often than savages! Not one person has refuted that Remingtons are the obvious choice for many times more Varminters than savage! Not one person has claimed that Remingtons are a worse investment than savages! Not one person has dared to say that savages look OR feel better than a Remington bolt Rifle! I wonder why? Its because the "savage dance" is a specious (lawyer term for being without real merit or factual basis!) and flawed argument!
You "savage dancers" just keep beating your flawed drum and avoiding these issues! All things considered the Remington is a better Rifle, better in the field, better at the range, better value, much more popular and a better investment!
You "savage dancers" keep throwing up the fact your buddies have trouble with nearly every aspect of "their" Remington Rifles existence or your lone or small sample of Remingtons are flawed! The people I talk to that ARE gunsmiths, that ARE competition shooters, that ARE long range Varminters, that try to spend their money wisely all prefer Remingtons over savages! Hmmmm.... then there is my extensive experience with them and I have tried to relay that experience impartially. If you savage dancers want to keep denying reality then do so but remember I will refute your assertions with facts from time to time! I hope that does not rumple your feathers or reduce you to trying to impune or ridicule me! That is real mature! He-he! Please come up with some facts showing savages are used more often by some type of Rifle competitor or that savages resell easier than Remingtons. I know why you won't because you can't! And please anyone, tell me PLEASE, the last popular bit of cartridge development and research savage has done for the benefit of accuracy minded shooters, Rifle competitors or long range Varminters or Big Game Hunters! I have easily done so with kudos to the Remington Company and for that reason alone it would be a bit farsighted for us in continued support for Big Green! Long live Remington.
And those of you that decry Remington for their recent decline in quality - don't for one second think that ANY recent manufacture savage can compare with the quality that was inherent in Savage Rifles built during the 1940's and early 1950's! The only "good" savages I have owned were from that time period. Comparing a modern savage with a Savage Model 99 from the 1940's is like comparing a Rolex to a Timex! The modern savages are absolute junk compared to those made 50 years ago! So try and keep in touch with modern reality and that reality is - your dollar does not buy as much hand work in a Rifle as it did before. Remington in some ways is also guilty of this but I contend my recent manufacture Remingtons are every bit as accurate and in many cases more accurate than those I have owned which were manufactured in the 1950's and 1960's!
Long live Remingtons superiority over savage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy , VarmintGuy , VarmintGuy, , good grief man. I have never given anybody a big grin before and then had it refered to as a snotty remark .

The fact remains that the Remington 721 was designed as a cost cutter to be cheaply built and undersell the competition . The 700 is merely a gussied up version with a high gloss finish . The Savage action was also designed to be a cost cutter . The two actions have many simiarities , with the bolt being assembled from several pieces , the same ejector , the same recessed bolt face , and the same "three rings of steel" baloney . I think the Savage extractor is superior . The Savage method of setting chamber headspace may be the best in the industry , for a mass produced rifle . It is likely one of the reasons for their superior out of the box accuracy .

The FACT remains , for a person on a limted budget , the Savage gets you more bang for your buck . However many cartridges Remington has copied from wildcatters hasn't got a thing to do with it . No one has even mentioned what maybe the best Savage buy yet , The Model 10 series , which can be bought across the counter for very little over $400 . Nothing Remington sells will even compare to that for a family man with a limited budget. And the M-10 now comes with the superior accutrigger . The one I tried was around a 2 lb. pull and crisp as a new dollar bill .......right out of the box ....no adjustments needed .

Score another one for Savage.........

[ 04-22-2003, 19:48: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

sdgunslinger: You are dancing again! Saying Remington did not develop and bring to the market many many wonderful cartridges over the last 40 years simply flies in the face of reality. If you continue to do so I will continue to point out your errors and continue to thank Remington for this ongoing endeavor! Thank you Remington for everything from the 222 Remington to the 6mm BR (and the rest of the wonderful family of incredibly accurate Remington BR cartridges!). Let alone all the great new innovations Remington has researched, developed and brought to the Big Game Hunting enthusiasts. Thank you Remington and thanks for nothing savage!
I was with my friend Mark when we decided on a nifty and handy truck Varminter forhim last year. The Remington 700 bolt action ADL sporter Model was $350.00 at a retail outlet! That Rifle shoots like a heavy barreled Varminter and was found to do so easily! The trigger was adjusted a scope was added and that Rifle shoots very well indeed. No bedding job needed, no extra dollar upgrading of the trigger needed (like on a $400.00 savage) and it is a safe, accurate and pretty good looking rig! Great investment and a super value!
You are right the Remington can't do what the $400.00 savage did! It does more for less!
sdgunslinger read all the posts in this thread recently and YOU pick out the snotty name callers! Its there in print. I did not mention names because I don't care if someone is trying to reduce this matter of facts down to a bunch of snide personal attacks. When I see folks dancing around reality that will be pointed out. And pointed out pointedly! But I do not need to turn this into a name calling contest - I will simply let the facts do the talking for me.
I very much appreciate your direct experiences and the time you take to relay them. I just can not for the life of me figure how anyone (including yourself) can come to the conclusion that savages are a better investment than Remington! When the opposite is in fact true.
By the way I recall seeing savages chambered in many of Remingtons proprietary cartridges (7mm Magnum, 223 Remington, 22-250 Remington, 25/06 Remington etc etc etc). Please do not try and down play the wonderful offerings that Remington has given to us shooters recently! I think it is highly commendable of them. Back in 1984 Remington brought back to the commercial market the nifty 250 Savage cartridge in their Classic Model 700 Rifle. That was nice of Remington and I am sure it gave a boost to those that have older savages in that cartridge in that it certainly made for easier acquisition of 250 Savage cartridges and brass. savage arms brought out that cartridge WAY back in 1915 by the way! And oh BY THE WAY Charles Newton designed that cartridge in the early 1900's! I want to thank the savage company for making that cartridge a commercial offering and success anyway. But the questions still remains unanswered - what has savage done lately? I mean in the last 50 years? I recommend all Varminters, Hunters and shooters support Big Green! Who knows what wonderful things they can do and come out with if we just continue to support them. Does anyone think that if we quit buying Remingtons and only bought savages that they (savage) all of a sudden would start doing long term cartridge experimentation and development for the shooting fraternity. I for one think they would not!
Love live Remington and their reign over savage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I've got a used custom varmint rifle for sale.

The action has been blue-printed, has a Hart match grade stainless steel barrel, trigger adjusted to 1.5 lbs, pillar bedded and glassed laminated stock, metal has been NP-3 coated by Robar, less than 300 rounds thru barrel and will readily shoot under 1/2" if you're up to it, caliber is 22BR.

Would you care what name was on the action if I said I'd sell it for $700.00? Do you have $700.00?

I just posted on anougher forum here, and actually told a guy looking for a .270 for his wife , to check out the, Gulp, Savage.
I saw one the other day and couldnt put it down!!
It was a nice little rifle, ugly as homemade sin, but a real nice factory rifle, w/ that Accu-trigger...WOW....I might go get it in the next few months!!
No, I wont go as "Savagefan", that screen name is safe.
I agree w/ Woodseye...I love Remmies, but a Factory, non-worked trigger is terrible...the Accu-trigger rocks.....sakofan...FWIW

TC1: Well yes you have to pay Remington for their fine product otherwise it is considered theft! Uh whats your point? MY point was yes buy the Remington (I-E give them the money!) get a very good product (much better by the way than a savage) and by doing that we (as a collective group of shooters) will be supporting a forward thinking company that invests in innovatively designed Rifles and offers useful and top performing cartridges. That sure makes sense to me!
To the poster (I am sorry I forgot your name and can't get back to it from this mid-posting) who is offering the Varminter for sale in 22 REMINGTON BR - I already have two of them! Both are standard Remington factory offerings and both shoot a lot better than .50" five shot groups at 100 yards (for the record). And by the way I paid LESS than $700.00 for one of them (used) the other was $1,050.00 (new) - as I recall. These Rifles did not need to be blueprinted or even needed adjustments to their triggers to obtain their excellent accuracy! But alas I admit one was used and the other was new but over the original posters parameter of $700.00. Fantastic performing cartridge though - the 22 REMINGTON BR! Sensational design that yields excellent velocity with modest powder charges and the brass is very long lived. Virtually every 22 REMINGTON BR I have seen shooting at the range has been commendably accurate! Way to go Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy...I too own Remingtons, they are good rifles, but the "reality", or not to dance around the "reality", is that, a Sako will, and always has, blown away your and my Remmies, Savage, and most American made rifles.
Ask any gunsmith, or you may ask mine if you like...he'll tell you the same thing...You are really wearing this thread out my friend...sakofan...Relax...It's only about everyones, including your opinion...

I can't resist, it is killing me...

1. That Howa 1500 .22-250 is, for lack of a better word, a kick ass varmint gun! Mine is a heavy barrel with a Boyd's stock, and topped with a 6-18x40 scope, will shoot factory ammo at less than a half inch. Cheap and accurate, what a deadly combination!

2. Anytime you Remington shooters want to talk shit about how crappy a Savage is, remember this: Any serious shooter will take performance before beauty, PERIOD. Savage may not be nice in your eyes (I don't see anything aesthetically wrong with them, but you brought it up), but they are shooters, no doubt about it. For a gun you are buying right out of the box and shooting, it's tough to beat a Savage. People may bitch about the action and how a Rem is such a better action, but consider this: The action comes into play when your first shot isn't perfect. Make it a perfect shot the first time, and that fraction of a second you lose on a savage action will be irrelevant.

I would go for the TIKKA first, then the savage they both will out shoot the remington. I just like the TIKKA a little better then the savage but that is a personal choice.

I talk to people all the time, that when the subject of Savage comes up, 8 out of 10 people say the same thing...great accuracy, ugly but what a shooter...sakofan...

A man should have confidence in what he shoots. For VarmintGuy it's a Remington, For me, it's Savage. This has been a fun thread, I hope nobody's feathers got too ruffled. I don't think all this back and forth is gonna change anybody's mind, Sooo, buy what you like and practice with it often. Good day to all, Terry

Here is a post I made today on http://www.varminthunters.com/forums/ggvg/index.shtml
I'm very pleased with my Savage and I have had several Remington shooters drool over my targets at the range.

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.223 Savage load development getting better... Pic-->

Posted by: Mad5757 , 04/22/2003, 18:07:39 Post Reply Forum

Second time out with the Vhit N-135/53 grain ZIA bullet and it's getting better. The N-135 did better than N-133 and all the other popular .223 powders in my Savage so far. I am going to work on refining this particular load. Any advice?
Rifle is a box stock 12FVSS .223 Savage with a Rifle Basix trigger @ 5 ounces.
Thanks for all the great help I have recieved here on this board.
Mad`

You know there seems to be only one person running any of the major brands down But you always find someone in the crowd that thinks their stuff is gold and everone else's stuff is S#$t and they make sure everone knows there opinion EVERONE knows remington is varmint guys pick. personly the only remington the I ever liked is the nylon 66 Does that make remington a POS? no, They haven't stayed in business since 1816 without making a good product just there not my cup of tea. How ever savage has been at it since 1894 so they to must be doing something right too! A person will kill more game with a $50 surplus rifle that they are comfortable with than a $5000 jarret or dakota that just doesn't feel right to them.As for me my centerfire rifle number in the teens I have remingtons rugers winchesters savages among other if my next meal depended on a rifle what would I pick? N.E.F. handi-rifle 45-70 w/$30 simmons walmart scope bought it when I had to have a rifle [lived on a farm] an it was all i could afford 13 years ago Why would I depend on it above other rifles ? Because when I put the crosshair on an animal and pull the trigger something dies I am confident in this rifle.... all the rifle makers make decent rifles the rifle you have confidence in is the one you will shoot best

By the way if money is Real tight a handi-rifle is a good rifle for a little money my 45-70 thinks its a varmint rifle inch groups at 100 yards with good hand loads

mine is box stock too except for the 8 ounce trigger.700 VSSF .308.It shoots in the .3`s 5 shots all day with 135 Bergers and 3031 but I am looking for a longer range load.This is the first one I tried with the 168 VLD.may try it at 500 Sunday and see how it holds together.9 shots in .380 with the 6th shot flying wide and low.I think my necks are getting thin as some bullets are starting to seat very easily.

Was that the only group you shot that day or is it just the best group you shot that day?
Aggs win events, not single groups.
Mad`

Aw.......just buy a Winchester Stealth in .223 and bust cats.....er, I mean varmints all day long. They are under the magic 7 price tag, and they will shoot .4-.7 inch groups if you do your part. On the other hand I have no problem with anybody shooting a Savage, Remy, or Howa. Those Howas look pretty nice, but I like a fiberglass stock. I want stability and tight groups, not fine wood.

WHAT REALLY amazes me,
no one has suggested if you REALLY want an accurate varmint gun on the "cheap" find yourself a 788 Remington in.223,.243, 22-250 or some other like caliber. Most of them in great shape will run only $350 or so, so you have money left over for glass, ammo, or whatever.
AND
you will have a gun that will out shoot all the new production guns(Remmy, Savage, Winny ...) out there for much less.

A good point Lawcop , except people are starting to hoard those old 788 s . Accordingly , the dealers hereabouts are pushing the price towards $400 for clean 788 s .

I don't think you can for sure say a 788 will outshoot a new Savage or 700 varmint weight barrel either , although I grant you most of them will shoot very well ........