was looking for input for a long range set up to take shots at say Rock Chucks at 500 to 700 yds type of rig..

Currently have available 22.250 ( and with a fast 1 in 7 twist), 243s (with one in 9 twist)... 6 mm Rem ( with one in 7 twist) and a new 25/06 heavy barrel for my Savages...

was looking to top this with a 8 x 32 or 10 x 40 scope..

of the available rifles, which one do you guys with experience think would give me the best flattest shooting set up? and what bullet weights should I be considering??? ( do want something that will be explosive.. )

I can also consider punching one of the 22.250s out to an Ackley or to a 220 Swift...

this will not be a high volume shooter, so not necessarily concerned about barrel wear potential...

thanks for your input in advance..
cheers
seafire

I'd say to be best, one should be able to spot his own impacts - number 1. It should also be flat shooting and buck the wind well.
In order to meet that criteria, there is only 1 factory rifle that comes close and that's the .204 Ruger, except that the Ruger comes with too-slow a rifling twist to best utilize the long range bullet in that calibre, the 40gr.Vmax and 40gr.Ballistic Tip.

Some Savages handle the 40gr. just fine, and excell with 32gr. Vmax's @ 4,150fps to 4,200fps which will give better results than the .22-250 or Swift to 450yards. I've used them all, including a Swift IMP. Too much muzzle blast, too much recoil, too little barrel life, compared to the .20 cals.

Therefore my choice would be a Tac .20 or .204 Ruger in a custom 10" twist barrel, preferably PacNor 3 groove with 1 1/2 degree throat, no leade or freebore.

This will do, with a 26" bl. 3,800fps using a bullet with a BC of .280, giving it 1/2 the drift and 1/2 the drop of a .22/250 or Swift using 50 to 52gr. bullets - AND - in a heavy dedicated 'chuck' rifle, you'll be able to spot your hits - which to me is just as important as drop and drift.

Your scope choice should be 5-15 minimum and better yet, 6-20 or 6-24, that is, if you are serious about having the best for that game.

The 25-06 will have better flight characteristics.
Bullet weights offered run similar. But velocities of same weight bullets run about 200 fps faster with the 25-06 vs. 243. That is not much difference until you start shooting at the ranges you want to shoot.
The heavy for caliber bullets maintain momentum/velocity better. Therefore actually shoot "flatter" at long ranges.
The Berger .257 115gr bullet at 3100 fps zeroed at 500 yds is
15" high at 265 yds
on at 500 yds (zeroed)
16.5" low at 600 yds
40.25"low at 700 yds
70" low at 800 yds

Berger's .243 115gr bullet at 2900 fps zeroed at 500 yds is
16.75" high at 270 yds
on at 500 yds (zeroed)
19.25 low at 600 yds
46.0 low at 700 yds
83.0 low at 800 yds
All of the cartridges you mention for "long range" shooting will do the job and I think quite well. The key to long range shooting is to know the range to the target(laser range finder). How your rifle/ load combination shoot at that range(practice). And reading the wind and mirage(lots more practice).
It is a great feeling to connect to a small target at those ranges. Not really all that hard either. Just practice and winning the mental side of the game.
Just how large are rockchucks?

muck

quote:

Originally posted by muck:
and winning the mental side of the game.
Just how large are rockchucks? muck

Close to avg, size ground hogs. roger

Given the choices you listed, I would be inclined to re-chamber the fast twist 22-250 to something like 22-243 improved or 22-6mm improved and use heavy VLD type bullets. Looking at the ranges (500 to 700 yards) you're talking about, I'd want more magnification available for my scope - something in the 6 1/2 - 20 range will really make a difference for long range work.

I have a Ruger .204 shooting 40 gr bullets, and it can't hold candle to my .220 Swift shooting 75 grain AMax's. Who cares about drop? Wind is what is going to kill you, and the .204 can't hold a candle to a .22 centerfire that can shoot bullets with BCs over .4.

Totally agree with Sagebrush Burns on this one.

Currently .204 projectiles are available up to 50 grs. and I'm sure will be offered soon heavier than that.

Just noticed that 55gr. and 57gr. bullets are available for the .204, advertised bc's of around .400.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Just noticed that 55gr. and 57gr. bullets are available for the .204, advertised bc's of around .400.

Well, that would be a great choice for the .204 then. Another problem with low BCs is the dramatic impact changing temperature/alititude has on bullet drop. You can measure the range with RF, but if you have to add/subtract clicks/moa due to temperature/atmospheric changes, you have a lot of "maybes."

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by muck:
and winning the mental side of the game.
Just how large are rockchucks? muck

Close to avg, size ground hogs. roger

That would be about 1 minute wide and and about 3 minutes tall,at 500yds. Again the toughest part, in my opinion, would be the mental aspect.

muck

Ruger #1 rebarreled with pacnor 29.5in bbl to 338/378 weatherby. 117grs retumbo behind nosler 225 accubond(bc551)at 3400fps. Works on rockchucks and up. Oh, most important, muzzlebrake and "good" earplugs. Note; this load only certified for my gun. It really shines beyond 600 yds. JS

Nobody has said this yet, so I'm gonna say the 6mm Rem, ackleyed, using either 75 gr v-max or 87 gr v-max. Check the following link for more info, it helped me decide on what to build for long range varminting.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html

i made one out of a browning hiwall using a 8" hart 224 barrel, chambered it for 22/250ai (don't know why i didn't just use a swift) and using the 80 gr sierra bullets. works on pd's at 800

You have exactly what you need already. Especially if the 22-250 is a fairly heavy rifle. Krieger recommends a 1in8 twist for the 75 grain A-Max. So your 1in7 will work just fine. I do agree about seeing impacts so I would have an effective muzzle break installed. No need to rechamber to AI. It would be nice, but not necessary. You should be able to get 3300 or possibly 3400 fps with a good dose of H-414 and the 75 grain A-Max. This bullet in the 22-250 has better down range capability than the 6mm with a 75 due to the poor BC of the 75 grain 6mm bullet. And shooting bullets of 100 grains or more for varmints is a bit silly IMO. you can do it if you want, but why?? Too much recoil with no real effective improvement. Now if you want to shoot at 1,000 yards then maybe, but just go to a proper 6.5 or 7 mm bullet. And skip over the 6mm and 257 caliber. Tom.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i made one out of a browning hiwall using a 8" hart 224 barrel, chambered it for 22/250ai (don't know why i didn't just use a swift) and using the 80 gr sierra bullets. works on pd's at 800

8" barrel? REALLY? roger

roger yeah its an 8" barrel on a hi wall revolver or maybe a 1 turn in 8" twist.

seafire, You've about got the subject covered!! 204,22-250,243,6mm and GOD'S chosen chambering, 25-06!
Out to 500, the 204 is hell on wheels using the 39 grain Sierra BK bullets. So close to the wind drift and trajectory of the 55 grain VMAxs at 3700fps from the 22-250 or the Swift.........................without the recoil and lost sight picture!! And kills vermin "DRT" (dead right there). The big 22's using fast twist barrels could be just all right when extending ranges but you're not extending ranges! Groundhog hunting "starts" at 400 yards and if it's calm, the 17 Fireball using 25 grain VMAXS does pretty darn well. (killed one at 197 yards last Friday with the 17Fireball in a ridicoulous wind........gave him "3 groundhogs L-R windage" and drilled him center throat!! Shot 2 more at 421 and 435 with the 22-250 and on the 435 gave him "3 groundhog LENGTHS L-R windage!! If id'd had the 6mm using 87 grain VMaxs at 3400+ they'd have all been easier but visual effects through the scope may have suffered. The 25-06 using either 85, 100 or 115 Noslers or 87 grain VMaxs would have been probably relatively easy and also even though muzzle jump and recoil would have been more, acrobatics and "launching" effects could still have been witnessed!! It is relatively and universally accepted that the the cartridges you mention are effective at the ranges you mention. Myself, I would draw the line at 500 for the 204.........I have kills to 771 on groundhogs with it but that little bullet is losing steam so fast after 500 that to be humane and elicit quick and effective, humane kills on groundhog sized targets, precise shot placement is critical! In a lot of years of varminting, (40 plus) the least "crawl offs" I've witnessed were from the 22-250 or the 25-06.........hence my reference to "GOD's" chosen chamberings! Probably the most "crawl-offs" I have seen came from folks shooting 243 Winchesters and various "30" caliber chamberings shooting for "center mass" and figuring that they thought they were good!! Bottom line is, you have all you need. Don't try to re-invent the wheel. And have respect for the vermin you are targeting. Nothing is worse in the hunting fields for a varminter than witnessing a crawl-off to die a slow and inhumane death!!My thoughts and beliefs, from experience and ongoing research! Charlie (GHD)

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
roger yeah its an 8" barrel on a hi wall revolver or maybe a 1 turn in 8" twist.

Golly! I should have known that.Just roger

I'd have to agree with GHD, but then again you didn't mention your 260.

My $.02... I"ve always been enamored with the .25/06, that's why she was developed. I would be much more likely to make a custom rifle, than buy anything from the market. The market sells compromise. It's only the after-market that will give you what you want/need. Since you need a tight twist for heavy bullets, you need a new barrel. MY choice, FWIW, would be a .25 Gibbs, as the barrel would be custom, why not the chamber? A .25/06 is fine, tho'. A .25 Magnum has a lot going for it,too. I don't like the .257 Weatherby because too many were made with looong throats, and data is off because of it. It's also possible to get mixed up with factory stuff, over the years. It'd cost a bunch, so might as well have a different cartridge. An Ackley, Mashburn, or Juenke, etc, would give you what you're seeking.
A .264 WinMag case would do the job, as would the .264 itself.
My opinion runs to the M98 Mauser, but the Savage, Winchester, and Remington actions are excellent, and you can always go to one of the custom actions, too.
I have several thumbhole stocks and find it easier to absorb recoil, and return to battery.
I've hunted the southern part of Oregon, by Arock, and throughout Northern Nevada, by McDermitt, and Elko, so I've a pretty good idea the kind of shooting you want to do. A lot of glassing, not much moving, not much shooting at any given time,....and a LOT of wind.
A heavy-barrelled rifle....like a heavy varminter, not a bull, would be useful, and would be left long for velocity, 26" or 28", ie.
An 8-32X gives you a full range for mirage, and is what I do use, tho' I don't have a rockchuck rifle right now.
Now, for the final point....EDM holes across the top near the muzzle will keep the "flip" down so you can watch the reaction downrange, especially at those longer ranges.
Just MHO, Have fun,
Gene

Seafire,punch out the 22-250 to ai and shoot the 75-80gr a-max or the bergers.I am shooting mine more and more and liking it more and more.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I'd have to agree with GHD, but then again you didn't mention your 260.

Larry,

thinking the 6mm Rem and the 22.250 may end up be flatter shooting..must admit, my 260 gets babied..

I have three more 260 barrels I need to mount on actions.. two threaded for Winchester actions and one for a Remington action...

I am waiting to solve my barrel nut desires, before I install any barrel on a Remington action....

What would you rather shoot in the wind? A 75 grain .224 AMAX at 2400 fps or a .204 40 grain Hornady VMax at 4200?

Believe it or not, the .224 at 2400 fps drifts less than the .204 bullet at 4200. Of course, we can get that 75 grain bullet humming along at 3200 or so...now the drift is half that of the standard .204 Ruger.

Any bullet with a BC less than .4 drifts too much in the wind for long range shooting.

If spotting your hits is NOT important, then go .308 calibre with a huge case and fast twist barrel. You need high BC bullets at high velcity, but, with a descently efficient case, something like the improved 68mm brass. .300 WinMag could do in a pinch. I think the larger cases are a bit too difficult to come up with exacting accuracy without going huge $$ in a special gun by a long range accurcy gunsmith - thousands of dollars. No factory gun is going to do that.

If spotting your hits IS important, with ranges to about 600 yards, then .20 cal. is the way to go and is about the largest case, flattest shooting, least wind drift you can get - seeing is important - remember!

I haven't been on AR for awhile, I never had to shoot rockchucks that far, farthest was about 300 or so yards. John whatever suits your needs

Depending on the type and size Varmint you maybe should have a .338 Lapua Tachtical, Mid east VLD launcher. roger

I prefer a .220 swift with a 1 in 7 or a 1 in 8 twist.Shooting 75gr. A-MAX as well.Usually two large pieces flying in the air on Groundhogs out to 400+.Just my opinion.



"Back off man!!I'm a scientist.."

6mm with a 105 A-max.

quote:

Originally posted by muck:
The 25-06 will have better flight characteristics.
Bullet weights offered run similar. But velocities of same weight bullets run about 200 fps faster with the 25-06 vs. 243. That is not much difference until you start shooting at the ranges you want to shoot.
The heavy for caliber bullets maintain momentum/velocity better. Therefore actually shoot "flatter" at long ranges.
The Berger .257 115gr bullet at 3100 fps zeroed at 500 yds is
15" high at 265 yds
on at 500 yds (zeroed)
16.5" low at 600 yds
40.25"low at 700 yds
70" low at 800 yds

Berger's .243 115gr bullet at 2900 fps zeroed at 500 yds is
16.75" high at 270 yds
on at 500 yds (zeroed)
19.25 low at 600 yds
46.0 low at 700 yds
83.0 low at 800 yds
All of the cartridges you mention for "long range" shooting will do the job and I think quite well. The key to long range shooting is to know the range to the target(laser range finder). How your rifle/ load combination shoot at that range(practice). And reading the wind and mirage(lots more practice).
It is a great feeling to connect to a small target at those ranges. Not really all that hard either. Just practice and winning the mental side of the game.
Just how large are rockchucks?

muck

Added for the 22 cal junkies out there.
Sierra 90gr MK (chosen for best bc in 22cal) at 3000 fps (hot load for a 22x50 AI). Trajectory table shows.

+16.3" high at 274 yds
0" at 500 yds
-18.6" low at 600 yds
-47.3 low at 700 yds
-86.5 low at 800 yds

For the 22 cal speed freaks

Sierra 50 gr BK at 3800 fps
+15.5 high at 286 yds
0 at 500 yds
-23.2 low at 600 yds
-62.3 low at 700 yds
-128.5 low at 800 yds

The 25-06 115gr bullet holds its velocity and therefore its trajectory at the longer distances seafire/B17G mentions he is wanting to shoot. Also mentioned by Groundhog Devastation you need the larger caliber for "clean" kills at long ranges. Can you shoot chucks at extreme ranges? Sure you can. But there is a lot more shot placement and "luck" involved. And do you want to deal with the increased likely hood of wounding/crippling an animal?

muck

I own, shoot several .22 cals and love em all .22hornet,218bee,.223 rem,.223wssm, 22-250 and 220swift all are very accurate rigs but at the end of the day if I can take but one gun out west to a hot dog town it would be the .220swift, it is the king, at 300yards or less I love the .223rem, cheap to shoot ,no recoil,less noise and very accurate. 150 yards or less I love the ole 218bee. My 22-250 is a late 80's winchester custom shop rig that is so nice I hate to drag it hunting but it shoots anything I cram in it very well including the win whitebox 45 gr hp bulk ammo.

I have a Remington 25-06 Sendaro and it's a 1/3rd of an inch gun with the right ammo. However spotting your hits is difficult. I think a 243 with a fast twist would be better.

Take a look at what the long range competitors are shooting. Wind is your big culprit. The 6.5x284 will easily out-shoot the .243 and 25/06 at long range, but in order to maintain good killing power at extreme ranges the .300 Win. mag. would probably be your top choice. This cartridge has repeatedly proven to have the accuracy and power to make kills at extreme ranges in excess of 600 yards.

I'd drive any of the A-max's as hot as i could--75 or 80 out of the 22-6mm
105 out of a 6-284
140 out of a 6.5-284 or 6.5 RSAUM
or maybe even the 162 7mm

I have a 22-284 Reamer set, and a 700 with a 1:8 twist and a 28" barrel. Shoot the 80gr bullets.

Rich

Yep.....what at least three guys are saying to you on this thread, is what me the 4th guy will also say. Can't shoot much flatter and wind resistant then the 75Amax. My rifle is purposely heavy with a muzzle brake so I can see the hits at 100 yards. It is topped with an 8x32x Burris.....just the magnification you want. My rifle is a 22x-6.5x47L . But the case is not important as the bullet, and so choose whatever case you like. Keep it under a 243 sized case and you'l be more efficient and less likelt to burn out barrels quickly. Since I had this rifle built 2 years ago, Lapua has come out with 22-250 brass. Despite the 6.5x47L case having a small primer to enhance accuracy (ala PPC style), the brass cost and resizing exercise isn't worth it to me now that the new 22-250 brass is available. That's the way I'd go with the 75gr Amax and a 1-8 to 1-8.25 twist. I run mine no faster then about 3425 FPS. (3,500 fps starts to burn barrels) Go compare the ballistics of the 75Amax at that speed to most other rounds. It's the perfect balance of speed, wind resistance, expansion, and minimal recoil.....perfect for those long shots beyond the 204.

But it won't hammer you like the heavier 243, 257, 264, bullets. Yes, I'm also building a 7mmMag for varmint. But, only because I'm bored.

quote:

Originally posted by 6flute:
Yep.....what at least three guys are saying to you on this thread, is what me the 4th guy will also say. Can't shoot much flatter and wind resistant then the 75Amax. My rifle is purposely heavy with a muzzle brake so I can see the hits at 100 yards. It is topped with an 8x32x Burris.....just the magnification you want. My rifle is a 22x-6.5x47L . But the case is not important as the bullet, and so choose whatever case you like. Keep it under a 243 sized case and you'l be more efficient and less likelt to burn out barrels quickly. Since I had this rifle built 2 years ago, Lapua has come out with 22-250 brass. Despite the 6.5x47L case having a small primer to enhance accuracy (ala PPC style), the brass cost and resizing exercise isn't worth it to me now that the new 22-250 brass is available. That's the way I'd go with the 75gr Amax and a 1-8 to 1-8.25 twist. I run mine no faster then about 3425 FPS. (3,500 fps starts to burn barrels) Go compare the ballistics of the 75Amax at that speed to most other rounds. It's the perfect balance of speed, wind resistance, expansion, and minimal recoil.....perfect for those long shots beyond the 204.

But it won't hammer you like the heavier 243, 257, 264, bullets. Yes, I'm also building a 7mmMag for varmint. But, only because I'm bored.

6flute:

Unless things have changed, that Burris scope has very little W/E adjustment. This is typical of scopes that have 1/8 inch adjustments.

larrys, The 260 is the "go to" gun when they are a long ways out there. With the 140 Amaxs 800 yards and more is doable with acceptible repeatibility. I got the 260 out last weekend just to check velocity of the load and accuracy at 100 yards, knowing that impending hunts would be forthcoming and it was still turning in .3's at 100 after sitting in the safe all winter and spring. Went and shot some bowling pins at 1000 with a friend using it and the 6mm so I think I'm good to go..........just find the time to put the gun and groundhogs in the same general proximity!! GHD

My longest shot to connect on a groundhog was at 504 yards. That was with a 308 and a leupold fixed 10x mark IV scope. Shooting 168 grain match kings.

Have gotten them in mid to upper 400 mark with a 25-06 and in the 300 yard zone with 225 grain hornady spire points out of a 338 lapua.

I usually hunt with a spotter, who is watching through his scope. If the shooter misses, the spotter calls it, then fires. After that, the groundhog is usually trying to get back to the hole and it looks like something like out of the movie saving private ryan with the lead going downrange.

Think the farthest I have managed with an Ar-15 is like 280 yards.

I think your best bet would likely be a 25-06 shooting some Bergers. I shoot 100 grain hornady spire points for groundhogs, but i would think they would really shed some velocity at the ranges you are suggestion. It is such a good cartridge.

Seafire/B17G- lots of good advice posted above. I'm adding my $.02. Ihave most of the 22 centerfires, a 243, a 25-06, 260 and a 308 Sendero. Reading to this point and staying with your goals of 700-800 shooting at small targets, the 25-06, 260 or a recently reported on 6mm-06 will make you the happiest. My longest shot to date was a 500 yd crow w/ 220 Swift/55gr Sierra MatchHP, using a 24X Tasco Target scope (Looks like a Unertle on steroids but shoots great). The 260 is making lots of news lately with long range LEOs and 1000 yds shooters. Good luck and good hunting.

Or a .257 Roy, 75 grain @3900fps.