It all comes down to personal responsibility...your dog, your problem. Take care of your dog...you have no problem.

If your dog becomes someone else's problem to take care of...well, you have no cause to complain because you were the one who "dropped the ball."

swede

Many dogs are turned loose to fend for themselves. One single dog unless it is of sherherd size is usually not a threat to an adult. Once they form a pack of strays and a leader takes command of Alfa male as the wolf population does. Then the game changes, and not even a grown adult could fend them off should they decide to attack.
I have been in that situation on a deer hunt and do not wish a repeat of that scary event. Had I not shot the Alfa male the rest of the pack would have attacked me, of that I am certain. Every land owner in that valley was contacted about the stray dog problem. None of those land owners contacted claimed any of those dogs in question. They all complained about them harassing the live stock on a regular basis. Those land owners requested we aid them in getting rid of that problem for them. Through the remainder of that winter and early spring the problem was solved. All those land owners new the dogs on sight since they saw them weekly. They had a major concern about their younger children being attacked by those ferrel dogs while out playing or tending to chores. In this instance I regret nothing that was done to help rid them of that problem.
The best was to eliminate a pack of ferrel dogs since they are very territorial when you know exactly where they run and bed. Ferrel dogs are always hungry and glad to get the meat treat. Place a golf ball sized ground chuck meat ball with six full strength asprin inside and use rubber gloves to make them. Once they ingest the treat, they will lay down in about a half hour and go to sleep.
It is the responsability of the animals owner to keep them under controll. Many so called house dogs are let out in the late afternoon to join with other ferrel dogs and run with the pack helping them take farm animals unknown to the owner of the dog. If your dog returns home wet with sweat and looking as if he's been running the entire time be suspect of what he has been doing. The owner of those animals would swear on a stack of Bibles his animal would never do that, but in rural areas it is no that uncommon. Once the ferrel Alfa male stray forms a pack of from four to ten dogs the problem then becomes very serious and must be delt with. The Ferrel stray Alfa males form packs by fighting to become king of the hill and gather females while other male strays join as his subordinates for saftey in numbers. The pecking order exists in any and all societies, the human animal and the animal kindom. There must always be a Alfa male and Alfa female and subordinates in the animal kindom or the social structure is doomed to failure.

I say, let your morals be your guide. I would sleep better that night knowing I gave him a pass. Just cause you've got a gun in your hand doesn't mean you have to kill. If the stray dog isn't causing any trouble, he gets a pass in my book. Terry

Just to feed the fire...

I learned yesterday that there was, a few years ago (5-10?) a problem in the southern Shenandoah Valley with packs of stray dogs. I'd heard that some farmers (friends) were losing sheep to dogs, some of which were owned by neighbors, which packed up for a night of hunting and snacks. However, I'd not heard previously (from an animal control officer) that it had actually been worse than I thought with some people threatened. Apparently, the problem was taken care of quietly so as not to offend our PETA contingent or to unduly frighten some of the locals. Some of these animals were still wearing collars, one or two had ID tags or licenses. None were shot "on their own" except for the last 3 or 4 but they had been seen with the packs and were loose and not under the immediate control of any human. While I was told that there were some 48 dogs, I'd heard previously that there were about 25. There may have been as many as 4 packs but apparently, with the local pets coming in and out and seen with multiple groups whose territory overlapped they weren't really sure how many packs there were.

Again, some people's pets had a Jekyll and Hyde personality or hidden "lifestyle". Others had been dropped or abandoned with and without collars. Two were suspected of being coy-dogs but I'm not sure if DNA testing was done. There probably wasn't any money for that.

I think that we have a responsibility to pay attention to animal behaviors. Isn't that part of hunting? We are also responsible to the landowners and/or our neighbors. To simply or categorily refuse is as irresponsible as shooting every dog (or cat) that you see.

The real tragedy is that these animals (or perhaps their parents) were unwanted, uncontrolled or uncared for.

Well put Bill! Most of the folks I have come into contact with over the years who kill Cats,dogs,porcupines, etc for no reason are cowards and have very little if any self confidence

Bill, excellent post and I agree. I once saw a fellow hunter open a mans face from ear to chin with the front sight of a rifle barrel over the shooting of a beagle for just doing what it took some training to teach it...dog deer!

Some stray dogs need a home and some need a bullet. It's as simple as that.

If it has a coller and tags it makes no sense to not try to fid it's owners. If it's vicious and animal control is out of the question, kill it. The same goes if it's chasing wildlife and stock.
I could kill mans best friend if I thought it was neccisary with out feeling any guilt but not without knowing if it had to be done.

As Honorary Officers (rangers)we have strict instructions to shoot any domestic animal found in a game park (reserve). The dogs normally belong to the indigenous people living on the perimeters of the parks and are often carriers of rabies.
These dogs are also often used for illegal hunting within the parks.

In Kwazulu-Natal they are used by the local indigenous people for hunting. They simply turn up in trucks and taxis at someone's farm and proceed to hunt using the beating method. Any antelope that is spooked is chased to exhaustion by the dogs and then ripped apart. A fine sport! Of course the landowner dare not intervene and it is a waste of time calling the police. Strange thing, the Natal Parks Board were at one time considering legalising this 'sport".
These dogs were the cause of a new pack of wild dog (Lycaon pictus) being wiped out in Madikwe by the spreading of rabies.
Rabies inoculations are freely available from mobile clinics but the disease keeps on spreading.
You can make up your own mind whether they should be shot or not.

If it were sick or injured, I'd shoot it. Otherwise, I'd let it be.

It may be 50 miles from the nearest house but may only be 1 or 2 hills from it's owner. Did ya think about that?

Bang.

Bang ! Bang !
I didn't miss that first shot 500Grains ... there were two.

Single dog is hardly an issue. It is only when they pack up it becomes a problem. Id hate to think I shot someones pet just because it was lost. On the other hand we had a pack of dogs on the farm where I was living for awhile that became a real problem. Not only did they chase game and livestock but became agressive towards my friends 2 girls. That was the last straw. 2 short barelled shotguns and buckshot. We found where they had been denning up and soon sorted out the matter. I have mixed feelings on the subject. It is like someone earlier posted as to too many shades of grey. Every situation will be different. I also would hate to think of someone shooting one of my animals. Consequences could get ugly. I have more affection for my critters than most people do for their kids. A little not so common sense and responsibility on both sides goes a long way.

Steiny...Bang, Bang, Bang,..one 300 WM comin' your way....Just kidding!

Boy this topic is a hot button issue down here in southern Virginia,we use dogs to run deer during the season,and most are real good about reclaiming any after the season shuts down ,but there as always are a few that just let them go wild and they become a problem.On one farm I hunt the owner has gone so far as declaring it still hunt property only no dogs {its 500 ac} and has told the few of us that hunt there to kill any dog found on the property,not some thing i enjoy doing but it gets done noone the less

A story I'd like to ad.

A few year back I was hunting near Princton B.C and I seen a excavator opperator having his lunch on the tail gate of his pickup. I seen lots of road work done in the area so thought he'd be a great scout to drill for some info. He didn't seem so happy to talk to me but I really wanted to know if had seen decent numbers of deer in the area. He seemed like a red neck like myself but was not giving up much.

After some stale conversation he let on why he was being so sour.

A week ealier he was working away and was letting his german shepperd run loose around the work area and he seen it drop and struggle to get up. He knew something was wrong and ran over to take a look. His dog was shot dead. He looked around and seen a 4X4 and a couple of jerks running to to get in and and split. He ran after them but they were 100yrds away and got away with out a explaination. No licence number could be seen.

I felt sorry for him and didn't bother to defend hunters because it was pointless at the time. It was obvious that these guys thought it was a stray because his machine and truck were out of site. If he wasnt on his lunch break they might have heard his machine and made the connection.

They were cowards none the less. It might of not changed how he felt but it's the least they owe him.

I passed up a shot cause I thought it was a stay. Turned out to be a reddish-brown colored COYOTE. Go figure.

I recall a friend of mine telling me that when he was stationed at Fort Lewis in Washington State, outside Tacoma, sometime in the sixties, that he was part of an armed party of around 75 grunts who put on an organized drive to clear the reservation of as many stray dogs as they could kill. Everybody stepped out with an automatic rifle and plenty of extra clips. He said the well-organized hunt had been going on for some years, with occasional lapses.

The details are dim now, but I do recall that a two-day hunt/drive produced just under a hundred dogs. When I asked him what some of the breeds were, he thought a minute and said he couldn't exactly recollect, excepting in one case where he came across two dead standard poodles w/collars. I recall feeling rather taken aback at the thought of a poodle chasing deer, but now know that-- just as the saying goes with humans -- it takes all kinds.

Imagine that same hunt today -- and what the earth muffin newspaper crowd would do with it!

[ 02-20-2003, 10:47: Message edited by: Mouskie ]

If it's got a collar, pass. No collar...BANG!!!

I wouldnt shoot any dog in my county... unless it was harrasing livestock. My buddy shot a dog ten miles out of town. I had been chasing his cat for a period of probably a year. He told the ownerw who lived about a mile away to keep it under control. They didnt. Interestingly enough there is a leash law. He finally got fed up with it and shot it with a 30-30 in the head at about 40 yards on his property. The dog went down and looked dead he went inside to trade his 30-30 for a 22 before he went down to check out the dog. I have no idea why, he should have walked down right away and put another bullet in it if need be. That was his mistake. When he came back out, there was blood all down the side of my pickup, the dog had tried to get into the bed for some reason. He tried to track it in the dark, finally giving up well past dark, figuring it crawled off and died somewhere in the brush. The next day the police showed up and arrested him. He had shot the dogs jaw off, and somehow it made its way back down to the road and home, leaving a clear blood trail leading back to my buddies house. He was charged with a class A misdemeanor, just short of a class c felony. When he went to court, they stuck it to him big time, he was made out to be some kind of animal hating killer. It turns out it he would have been chickens instead of a cat that the dog was after, it would have been legal to kill.

How about this, Your live 15 miles form anybody, you are out working, a car slows down and dumps out a dog and drives off. They go about a mile down the road,(I live in flat country) keep going. YOU drop the dog, they come back "why did you shoot the dog man" MY responce "why did you drop it off MAN" Peopld drop dogs off out here all the time. Not the neighbors, he dies on sight.
P.S. To take the dog the the pound they want $15, you drop it off. 308 $.15

Why do people make there problem yours????
Thom

In Wisconsin, it is illegal to shoot a dog. Only a DNR warden can kill a dog for chasing deer etc.
As far as cats, POOF! ;-)

Here's one for you,

My wife and I are deer hunting public land last year during gun season. 1hr. and a 1/2 later a coon hound comes up behind us, starved, in heet and looked like shit. It had a orange collar with name of owner and phone. Since we own 2 gsp's my wife feels sorry for it and gives it something to eat (dam, there went are hunting day) and calls the owner to come get his dog. The owner tell's us she got lost last night while hunting, I'm thinking the dog has been lost for at least a week as thin as it was. Any way the owner tell's us his van is broke down and can we bring it to him.
This dog should have been shot for it's own misery from it's owner. He didnt even have any food for it when we droped her off abought a mile away.
My dogs wear 2 collars one e collar and the other leather with 3 tags on it for info if they do get lost. And they probably will chase game if they get lost, it is there nature.
So far I havent had any problems with my dogs chasing deer while in the field. But if they do please dont shoot my dogs!
Correct me if I'm wrong, ky laws state you may not shoot a hunting dog with a collar, but all else is fear game.

A couple years ago there was a Husky that had a cow elk cornered next to a cliff. Witnesses say the dog was chasing the cow around all morning. So some people call the cops and they come out and see the dog still harrassing the elk. The game and fish gave the cop permission to shoot it. So they smoke the dog. Word gets out all around town and there were dozens of letters to the local papers in defense of the dog. Screw that dog. I shot at a dog chasing deer once. I missed and mowed down a small tree instead. I never did see that dog again though, lucky for him.

I guess I should have used the words, wearing a collar, instead of with a collar.

If I find the person that shoots my dog, he's going to have the e-collar around his neck!

[ 03-08-2003, 05:17: Message edited by: gsp ]

I'm glad I dont have to hunt with anyone that cant tell the difference between a stray dog and a hunting dog or pet. Maybe hunters should have there eye's checked when they purchase there hunting license!

If my dog was endangering, people, live stock, or a pet, by all means shoot it.

I have yet too see a 60l/b dog take down a 200l/b wild animal. Chances are its going to out run the dog or stick a antler up it's ass.

For Sure, any stray dog should be shot, they only finish up killing sheep.

As the question was originally posted: I'm in the camp that doesn't shoot. Don't need to justify my motivations or reasons to anybody. I wouldn't shoot.

Is a dog afair taraget? Yes sir it sure is in my part of the country. I help to do predator controll on a cattle ranch. At first it was all fun and game, drive around and shoot all the coyotes you could. You dont think coyotes do damage to cattle? Bullshit, spend a week on a cattle ranch around the time the cows start dropping calfs. At this time most coyotes are content with just eating the after birth, But when you get two or three together they can take down a new born calf faster than you work the bolt on your rifle. Another way to tell if coyotes are working the heard is to study there shit piles,y ou will start to see alot of coyote shit that is bright yellow this is do to the fact that these coyotes are feeding on the calf shit. And the calfs are feeding one hundred percent on there mothers milk. How getting back to dogs most of these dogs pack up just to have fun at the cows expense. I have seen dogs(three) chase a calf just to take turns biting at her tail, thats it and when this is gone the calf dies from infection or shock. I have seen cows that have faces that are so torn up from dog bites you could barely tell that what you were looking at was a cow face, it was to covered in puss. I sure wonted to shoot her and end her suffering bu if she milked her calf for two or three more days the little guy just might survive. Now are dog fair game you bet.

gsp you just dont get it You get a bunch of pet dogs together at night and they will become more aggrisive than a single stray ever will. Their hunter instinct will take over and the will kill for fun.I love dogs myself, their is no reasion to have free ranging dogs anywhere. Just watch the news sometime how maney kids are attacked and killed by the nabers dogs? The same dogs " That would never hurt anyone" Bullshit Keep all dogs under controll.

Back to the original question. Is ( A ) stray dog a fair target. The question was not a bought pack,s of dog's. If were talking more than one, and they are killing, shoot them all!

If the question was, are coyote's a fare target, every one's post would have been different.

The problem I am having with this question, is when does a lost pet become a stray. If my dogs and I are hunting 300 miles from home, and one gets lost, what do you do? Pray someone doesn't shoot it till you find it! Spend more money on motel, food and gas, lost time at work, only to find out that some redneck with a gun shot my dog.

Like I posted earlier, If someone cant tell the difference between a stray dog without a collar and a hunting dog, or pet with a collar, they need there eye's checked. How do you know the pet didn't lose it's collar.

The problem with this type of post is that you attract scum like the "Dog Hunter" which add fuel to the PETA types that we are all out just to kill anything we see. I have had to kill three dogs in my life out of necessity. The worst of the three was a pitt bull bred to fight that attacked a little girl in east Dallas. Just like the Cat post in the small game forum these posts are in bad taste. We don't want people to think just because we have guns we want to shoot the first live creature we see. I own coonhounds and often I am out of sight but not far from my dogs and most of coon hunting is after dark, in the morning is when collecting the hounds becomes coonhound hunting. Like the instance of the equipment operator's Shepherd dog being shot we are working with the classic picture of a developing serial murderer. If you interest in guns is focused on killing any dog you see then you need to see a mental health worker.

gsp The land i help with predator control is all private, well over one hundred and fifty thuosand acres. Local animal control stops at every naboring ranch and photographs all dogs on these properities. The reasion for this is when a dog is killed we can tell wich ranch it came from.If these dogs have collers on them so much the better, Who ever owens these dogs gets the bill for the lost live stock. Thats it cut and dry, I am not a dog hater, infact i own four dogs myself. What else can we do?

Dog Hunter,

I'm glad we can agree on the owner should pay for damage's. Hopefully I or some one else that owns dog's can keep them under control.

I guess thats why I spent 800.00 on my Tritronics, to keep from having this conversation.

Again, I agree with shooting dog's that are a danger to people, livestock, etc. I personally would not shoot a dog thats not bothering anything or anyone. More than likely the dog was dumped by it's owner anyway. I would probably take it to the pound and let it have it's chances there. I better not get into that subject, the price of a bullet or the taxpayer's money

I wish everyone a great and safe hunt!

gsp Now you have givin me anew angle, I just might give that a try.

500grains,
If you don't have a reason, such as land owners request or chasing game, I don't think there is a need to kill anything.