Walter,

Maybe you can help. Jeffeosso and I had a discussion the other day and neither of us feels like budging on our beliefs. Bullet failure that is. If I select a particular type of bullet and use it as intended and the animal drops dead at the shot, even if there is no exit and no discernable bullet remains found, is that a failed bullet? I say no, because the animal dropped at the shot, and that is what I intended to do. Bang-Flop! Case closed.
I am obviously not going to use a varmint bullet on dangerous game that could be suicide, but still not bullet failure because it was not used as it was designed.

What do you say Wally? Wanna get involved in this discussion?

Andy B

I was not the first to say this but I will repeat it:

There are no bad bullets, just bad bullet choices.

For instance, if I am shooting deer and pigs on my deer lease, from a blind or fixed position with my 308 I will probably use a Winchester 168gr Ballistic Silvertip.

But, If I am walking deer and pigs "up" I would use a 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.

From the blind I can wait on a near broad side shot. When walking them up I might jump a trophy and need to take a raking shot, and I would need more penetration.

So what I am saying is pick the bullet for the type of hunt, and size of game you will be hunting.

Also in the annals of hunting , not enough penetration, has caused far more problems than not enough expansion.

I have used a lot of different brands of bullets over the years, but here is where a Nosler Partition, in the proper calibre and weight, suitable for the game being hunted is never a wrong choice.

It gives good expansion even at a distance, and gives good penetration up close, where velocity is high.


The bullet does ALL the work. It is up to the hunter not to make a "bad bullet choice".

It is one of the few things of the hunt you have absolute control over.

[Unless your ammo is "lost'.]

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I was not the first to say this but I will repeat it:

There are no bad bullets, just bad bullet choices.

For instance, if I am shooting deer and pigs on my deer lease, from a blind or fixed position with my 308 I will probably use a Winchester 168gr Ballistic Silvertip.

But, If I am walking deer and pigs "up" I would use a 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.

From the blind I can wait on a near broad side shot. When walking them up I might jump a trophy and need to take a raking shot, and I would need more penetration.

So what I am saying is pick the bullet for the type of hunt, and size of game you will be hunting.

Also in the annals of hunting , not enough penetration, has caused far more problems than not enough expansion.

I have used a lot of different brands of bullets over the years, but here is where a Nosler Partition, in the proper calibre and weight, suitable for the game being hunted is never a wrong choice.

It gives good expansion even at a distance, and gives good penetration up close, where velocity is high.


The bullet does ALL the work. It is up to the hunter not to make a "bad bullet choice".

It is one of the few things of the hunt you have absolute control over.

[Unless your ammo is "lost'.]

I couldn't have said it better!

465H&H

Joyce Hornady was of the opinion that any bullet that killed the animal was not a failure!

Hornady makes the best non-premium bullets available. Personally, I'm not one of those through and through guys. I prefer ALL THE KINETIC ENERGY be expended inside the animal!
After all, that's what it is for, isn't it?

I think all this exit wound/tracking stuff is BS. I've yet to follow an animal more than 30 yds. after shooting it. And that's with 50 years of doing just that.

And yes, I will agree that a frangible bullet such as a Nosler ballistic tip will fail on
impact with a large shoulder bone....but that is not bullet failure....that is shooter failure. That same bullet through the lungs would have been a bang-flop!

Were premium bullets invented to make more money or cover poor hunting/shooting practices? Believe me. This question is NOT going to be settled here! Or anywhere else for that matter!

+1 for the excellent NP. Close,far, big, small-IT does it all!

I like GS HVs myself. I have chatted with folks that have shot some serious DG and had petals break off, and no exit. However the animal dropped at the shot. I do not view this as bullet failure. Then there is the argument about impact velocities..... Why with a premium monometal expanding bullet would you not want impact velocities above 2800fps?

Andy

quote:

I prefer ALL THE KINETIC ENERGY be expended inside the animal!

Don,

You should try a box of TFSP bullets from RBCD. Talk about TOTAL EXPENDITURE of ENERGY!

What ultimatly kills an animal is loss og blod/oxygen to the brain!

So I prefer an arrow delivering 45-50f/lbs with a clean wound canal rather than a 2000f/lbs fragmenting bullet that stays in the animal.

Unless You hit the spine blodloss is the killer, and I have yet to see an entry wound bleeding severly. But on the other hand exit wounds tend to!

I have only lost two animals, so far. Both were through and through shots with good blood at first. One of them lost buckets of blood and then nothing, like someone picked her up with a helo or something. I have never had a deer that the bullet "failed" to exit, go more than 10 ft. Just my experience, but I like the deer to take the hit, rather than energy be lost on the other side. Don't get me wrong, IMHO finding the mushroomed bullet under the far side hide is perfection. I think this is why my 7mm08 is deadlier (more immediate) on whitetails than my 7mm mag. my .02

expanding bullet failure
if retained within the animal (or recovered) it should retain 75+% original weight
not spit the jacket
expand 1.5 X


a solid should not expand more than 1.1


The death of the animal is a result of shot placement. Since a solid will kill ANYTHING, its all about bullet placement. 3 tons of energy in the dirt doesn't kill em ..

Since this topic looked like it was fixing to give its death bellow, how about letting it get a rebirth.

If a bullet, any bullet, drops an animal in its tracks, regardless of whether it exits or not, Did That Bullet Fail?

How about addressing this discussion from a different angle.

Once again, what component in a hand-load/reload, hunting situation is the unknown variable??

The person that created the hand-load/reload and their choice of components.

I have tried to understand for years, why, one of, or the least expensive components involved in killing an animal, any animal the cartridge, is the one that people will scrimp on.

I personally prefer bullets that make a fair sized hole going in, and after doing some damage in the critters body, makes a slightly larger size hole going out, leaking air and fluid out of both sides.

That is why I went to Barnes "X" bullets, and have also used Nosler Partitions.

It is also why I stopped using the bottom of the line Hornady bullets, because I don't like finding pieces of copper jacket or bits of lead core in a venison steak.

JMO, bullet success or failure is subjective at best. I may not like the performance of the bullet when I am butchering the animal, but if it was a "Bang-Flop" "DRT" incident, how can I really say the bullet failed?

The flip side of this are the people that claim bullet failure on barnes X, TSX, what have you, for bullet failures .. if the shot had been instantly lethal, even if it didn't expand, it would have killed the animal.


but if the bullet came apart, in an edible or dangerous (or both) animal, it failed.

it created a massive wound ... sure did ... but like 45gr bullets in a 22-250, it is pure ego, rather than respect of the animal, to use an improper bullet.

not to mention what happens if the "perfect" shot didn't happen? just as you were shooting, it hits forward of where you were aiming, and now this light bullet destories the ham, criticall wounds the animal but doesny't cause a clean kill?

in "perfect" conditions, a 22LR can kill 99% of all game animals ... that its used by poachers for deer states that clearly .. but its NOT ethical...

why? because in less than perfect shot placement, it makes a huge wound, but doesn't kill IMMEDIATELY


If you HAVE to have a great big bullet (expanded) START with one . a .375 doesn't kick much...

Bang Flop, with tiny flakes collected means the bullet used was MARGINAL at best, in that shot ..

be honest with yourself .. we've all made bad shots ..

i guess the real question is, are you will to hunt within the limits of your bullets, knowing it is going to fail, and will PROBABLY kill the animal? another way.. is its failure mode acceptable to you?

sometimes it is, honestly .. a .510 570gr woodleigh hitting bone at 2200 is outside its performance window.. it don't know what the bullet weighs afterward .. i've never recovered one from game... but i sure enough do recover the GAME

These bullet debates are kind of silly to me.

For anything this side of Alaska bear or Cape buffalo, a Nosler Partition will work just about perfectly. Enough expansion to cause a big wound channel followed by holding together to penetrate as deeply as you'd like. There are a jillion other premium bullets which are merely variations on the theme. The cost of the hunt is about 1000 times the extra cost of a premium bullet.

All bullets have design parameters. There is no such thing as a "Bullet that will do it all".

As stated above bad bullet choice and bad shot placement are the reason for poor performance and lost game.

The right choice of bullet, delivered to the right spot within it's designed velocity should equal proper results every time. Dead animal.

I also believe that dead animal means bullet and hunter did their respective jobs!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Walter,

Bullet failure that is. If I select a particular type of bullet and use it as intended and the animal drops dead at the shot, even if there is no exit and no discernable bullet remains found, is that a failed bullet?
Andy B

I am of the opinion that if no discernable fragments were found you didn't look hard enough, especially if there was no exit hole.

I don't think I have ever lost an animal due to bullet failure. So far I've only lost one: a warthog shot with a 300 grain Nosler Partition. When I do need a second shot it's because the first one wasn't in the right place.

I guess my question is, "How many hunters can really tell if they lost an animal due to bullet failure?" If you can't find the animal then you have no way of knowing. What I do know is that every animal that required a second shot was due solely to the first shot not hitting a vital organ or nervous system due to bullet placement, and that's my fault, not the bullet's. Up until my last hunt in Namibia I have used nothing but Nosler Partitions, but I think it would be the same for just about any bullet.

WOW! A serious discussion!