The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Walter's Own General Discussions Why the huge disparity between Soviet and German losses on the Eastern front?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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During the war on the Eastern front, in terms of quality of weaponry there was not a huge disparity. In terms of quantity, after 1942 the Soviets had an advantage that grew as the war continued. Yet even excluding their defeats during the first few months of the German invasion, Soviet army's losses were several times those of the Germans. As specifically as you can, please identify and explain why. It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | ||
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Leadership. In the late 1930's Stalin purged 80% of his Colonels, and almost all of his Generals Education: The Germans were a homoginious, educated military, where the Russians were a largely pesant army, with over 100 ethnicities, and significant language barriers between the officers and the men. So, the Russians started without their experienced leaders already dead, and the remainder who could not communicate with many of their troops. This set them up for significant C3 issues on the battle field. | |||
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Hitler's stubborn nature for not listening to his generals is also responsible for great losses of his soldiers, not to mention the wrong timing to open the Russian front simultaneously with almost the rest of the world. One on one he would have smacked the russians down and don't forget the oil embargo that lingered and weaken the German ability beyond 1942. Churchill said after the war that they killed the wrong pig. Warrior | |||
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No expert here, but I have read a good bit about WWII. I believe there was a substantial difference in attitude between Hitler and the Germans and Stalin and the Russians regarding the value of their respective troops' lives. Germany, as a Christian nation, held life to be valuable. Not so for the Russians. | |||
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A-Sniper is correct. | |||
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IMHO, the Russians "baited" the German army far enough into Russia to let the extended supply lines and winter defeat them. Stalin had no regard for losses due to about a twenty to one or better population. Rich | |||
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Brice is onto to something there too! Though not WW II era, look at the AK vs anything the Allies then NATO fielded against the Soviet block, all were very accurate at greater distances than the AK. Needed more cleaning, but... Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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ALL the German soldiers had guns, not so with the Russian troops...... Birmingham, Al | |||
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Dixie, some of Russian units at Stalingrad did not have a full compliment of rifles. Unlike what was portrayed in the movies, these were veteran units, who had suffered loss and damage to their weapons during combat. Estimates are that maybe 20% of the Russian soilders were not properly armed when they arrived in theatre, but this was quickly alleviated. Most history buffs know the AK-47 and it's variates is the most prolific firearm in history. Very few know what the second is, the Russian Mosin Nagaunt with over 30 million copies produced in Russia alone. | |||
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it begs the question- Who are the 43 people responsible for Goddard's honorary Academy Award? | |||
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I cannot recall where right now, but somewhere I once read that Russian infantry tactics in WWII were basically to drown the enemy in Russian blood. Disregard for life , poor leadership, and I would bet that a fair number of the Russian casualties were sustained from their own side. In Winds of War, a Russian general is quoted as saying that his preferred way to clear a minefield was to march a brigade through it. Now I know this is from a novel, but Herman Wouk's research was pretty solid and thorough and it wouldn't surprise me if a Russian general actually said that, or at least thought it. Wouk also used the drown the enemy in blood line in his book. | |||
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Put ASniper and Idaho together and that's about right. Tactics played a large part...Russian doctrine used (not very good) infantry as cannon fodder. And, Russia was fighting on, and for, its own soil. | |||
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If you have not already read it, I would suggest you read "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beavor. To suggest the Russians deliberately retreated out of some sort of strategic plan to draw out the German logistics is fanciful. The Germans came very close to over running the Soviets, the reality was they allowed their own supply lines to over extend. There is no question the Soviet officer corp was very poor in 1941 and 42. By later in 1942, Darwin had started to work his magic and the surviving General officers, notably Molotov, had started to get the situation under some sort of control. Stalin and the soviet leadership undoubtedly used their infantry has cannon fodder. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives were sacrificed out of a combination of political ideology, paranoia, incompetence and plain disregard for their fellow man. Stalin was every bit as dangerous a pyschopath as Hitler ever was. Roosevelt has a lot to answer for. Churchill plainly understood Stalin's motivations and intentions, but Roosevelt refused to allow himself to be advised on the subject. The net result was that central and eastern Europe was overrun by the Soviets and subjugated for the next 40 years. The effects last to this day. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you.... | |||
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X2 right on. But wait! Rooosefelt is Obamas hero!? | |||
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It had much to do with the respective governments view of their soldiers; Germany: soldier = asset Russia: soldier = cannon fodder | |||
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X3 nice post bang on | |||
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Are you refering to the AK-47? It was not even in existence other then design stage during WWII Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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But they did begin fielding the SKS in 1943. | |||
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Synchronicity! The Germans had lots of ammunition and the Russians had lots of soldiers. Jim "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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He was also Reagan's hero. | |||
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Very True! Early on Stalin had more men than weapons. Even less leaders after his purges of the officers ranks. They'd put the armed soldiers at the front and unarmed following. When the armed soldier fell an unarmed soldier grabbed the weapon and continued forward. My wifes grandfather was on the Russian side as a Colonel during the "Great Patrionic War" aka WWII. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Gotta have a link on that one Wymply. Reagan was quoted as admiring Silent Cal Coolidge. . | |||
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germans -- willing, trained, armed, supplied, motivated russians? not so much, ,though brave #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I'm in Kiev Ukraine now and if any of you ever wander thru here make sure that you go and visit the WWII museum under the "Iron Maiden". It's near the Lavra Monestary. The battles around Ukraine were some of the bloodiest of that war. The Soviets were very motivated to protect and defend 'motherland'. They just didn't have the equipment training or leadership that the Germans had. Things got alot better after the US started the 'Lend-Lease' of equipment. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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If you think the Russians were untrained, read "Enemy at the Gate". Tells of Stalinegrad, very well researched, the movie told of about ten paged of the book. The most costly battle in history and the Russians were vastly outnumbered at the start. Some had Flintlocks. The Russians fought the Germans. Eight of ten Germans died on the Russian front. | |||
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Nope.the first issued SKS were delivered end of 45. The 7.62x39mm rounds is called model of 43 in the Soviet nomenclature because the work on intermediate cartridge satarted in 1943 after the capture of MkB 42 and its 7.92x33mm rounds at Cholmsk in 1942. | |||
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The basic premise that the Soviet and Nazi war materiel was equivalent also doesn't hold water. The German tanks were vastly superior to the early Soviet tanks, and chewed them up in rapid order. Add to that near complete air superiority, and the only thing the Soviets had more of than the Germans was warm bodies. Not until later, with the advent of, among other things, sloped forward tank armor and alloys in tanks built with US know-how in "Tankograd" did the Russian mechanized forces have a chance at a fair fight. JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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My off the cuff opinion is as follows: I believe that the foregoing posts illustrate the one main point that: despite differences in leadership, material quality, tactical superiority, air superiority, the Russian soldier had two more enemies than their German counterpart up until the very end and those were their own government officials and system of government. These two enemies were the cause of nearly all the other issues they Russian soldier had to overcome to be an effective fighting unit. | |||
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To paraphrase Zhukov, speaking to general Eisenhower, after the war, When we advance through a minefield, we assume the losses would be the same, as received by artillery fire. To paraphrase Eisenhower, massive Russian victories seem to be unattainable without massive casualties. Russian advances were also backed up by NKVD batallions, with orders to shoot anyone who faltered. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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One point I haven't seen on this thread yet was the effect of the Russian Commissars on the Russian troops. Quite literally, they were stationed near the lines to shoot any infantryman who even appeared to be retreating from the front lines. Even those soldiers who took a few steps backward to go around something were given a bullet by the Commissar. I often have wondered what the real Russian casualty rate from German fire really was, as I am willing to bet the significant majority of the Soviet losses on the Eastern front were at Soviet hands, not German. And the historical revisionists would have us believe we bled the Soviets severely before invading Normandy. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Walter's Own General Discussions Why the huge disparity between Soviet and German losses on the Eastern front?
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