241 years ago, less one day, The Founding Fathers hung together, so as not to hang separately.

141 years and a week ago, Custer died for our sins, with a .50-70 Govt. Rolling Block in his hands.
Amen.
This Black Powder handloading ritual was conducted in remembrance of Custer:

I resized the once-fired brass with the Lyman .50-70 Govt FL die backed out about 3/8", my approximation of neck-sizing, worked well.

I belled the case mouths with a Lyman .50-90 Sharps 2.5" neck-expander die screwed all the way down,
both die body and expander plug fully down, bottomed out. Worked well too, and kept me from going too far into the .50-70 case.

Cases were primed with Winchester WLR primers.

I weighed each charge of Goex FFg, 70.0 grains.
A 2.5 cc Lee powder scoop, 2 dips, is almost exactly right for that charge, trickled to exact weight.

A 25"-long drop tube was used to charge the cases, cases tapped a little to settle, filling the cases to within about 0.200" of the top.

A 0.025" to 0.030"-thick card (punched from the back cover of a spiral notebook, "college-ruled")
was placed over the powder and pressed down lightly with 3/8"-diameter wooden dowel.
Top surface of this over-powder card is now 0.175" below case mouth (brass length is 1.740").

The Lyman .50-90 Sharps neck-expander die was then used to compress the powder, bottomed out again.
Top surface of the over-powder card is now 0.555" from case mouth.
That is 0.380" of powder compression.

Next two single layers of newsprint paper (punched from a newspaper with a .50-cal wad punch) were laid over the card.

All bullets were sized to 0.512" diameter, and pan-lubed with 50:50 beeswax and olive oil.

Bullets were seated and crimped like so:
450-grain Lee (1:30) C.O.L. 2.240", all three lube-grooves within case.
680-grain Hoch (1:30) C.O.L. 2.600", one of four lube-grooves showing beyond case mouth.

10 shots were chronographed for each of the two bullets loaded with same powder charge:

450-grainer, B.C. = 0.220, 5-yard chrono corrected to MV:
10-shot Average MV = 1225 fps
St.dev. = 6 fps

680-grainer, B.C. = 0.436, 5-yard chrono corrected to MV:
10-shot Average MV = 1066 fps
St.dev. = 7 fps

BP is SUBSONIC with the 680-grainer, makes round holes in target but not stable in 1:24" twist, does not group as well as the smokeless load with 1303 fps MV.

BP is SUPERSONIC with 450-grainer (only about 99 fps faster than Mach 1) but well stabilized in 1:24" twist,
more accurate, but still not as accurate as the 680-grainer at 1303 fps with smokeless.

I like the 450-grainer BP load.
I like the 680-grainer smokeless load better:
40.0 grains of H322 and a CCI BR-2 primer, with a sliver of backer rod as filler, C.O.L. = 2.540",
5-shot St.dev. = 4 fps, MV 1303 fps, 28" barrel, 1:24" twist.



THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

Not a darned thing wrong here, RIP. Might be able to tweak the 450-grainer for accuracy. Try some loads without the cardboard wad -- seems to me Venturino found them a distraction with some loads.
And regarding Custer, I have often wondered if his rolling block was found with a fired soft copper Frankford Arsenal inside-primed cartridge case jammed in the chamber and torn where the extractor ripped through it.

Your Black loads will shoot perfectly clean, and accurate, if you put ten percent of 5744 or 4759 under it.

From the Big Bore forum:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... Nice work with 322 and 4198. I am a bit surprised you couldn't find a load with XMP 5744. I have found it forgiving in just about everything up to and including .577 Snider.
Can't recall, but did you get your Beech combination front sight from MVA?

Well now, that will require a recap here to explain those profane smokeless loads, forgive me, Custer.
See below.
Yes, the BEACH combo front sight came from MVA.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Not a darned thing wrong here, RIP. Might be able to tweak the 450-grainer for accuracy. Try some loads without the cardboard wad -- seems to me Venturino found them a distraction with some loads.

I am following Croft Barker's recommendations.
He did note that the cardboard wad might stick to the bottom of the bullet sometimes and cause flyers.
Hence the two pieces of newspaper between the cardboard wad and the bullet base.
I guess that means that a single thickness of newspaper riding along on the base of the bullet is not an accuracy issue,
just another way to deliver the news.

And regarding Custer, I have often wondered if his rolling block was found with a fired soft copper Frankford Arsenal inside-primed cartridge case jammed in the chamber and torn where the extractor ripped through it.

Possible, but he was SOL by then anyway. We will never know, as the rifle was never recovered.

Copied from the "Big Bore" forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/8671090332
(Photobucket is no longer allowing links to the target photos as seen on previous post,
since they changed the rules to extortion on 6-28-2017 which I refuse to go along with.)

This is so good I doubt I can improve on my starting loads, one bullet two powders.
Two other powders tried too, no good.

Bullet: Hoch 680-grainer in 30:1 lead/tin alloy, .512" as cast, not sized, pan-lubed in 50:50 beeswax and olive oil.
(Distinctly spaghetti-western-flavored loads.)
C.O.L. 2.540"
CCI BR-2 Large Rifle "Bench Rest Primers"
Starline brass 1.745" average length, max 1.750".

First good powder: H4198 35.0 grains
MV = 1278 fps
5-shot St.dev. = 8 fps

Second good powder, maybe my best here, they say it has won more bench rest matches than anything else,
H322 40.0 grains:
MV = 1303 fps
5-shot St.dev. = 4 fps

So I pulled one out of five of the shots in each group. I am easily excitable.
That is why I usually stick to three-shot groups, to test the rifle, not me!

Lil'Gun 30.0 grains (with filler) for 1368 fps
and AA-5744 29.0 grains (no filler) for 1176 fps were both good for shotgun patterns,
about 5-inch, 5-shot groups at 50 yards.

No keyholing was seen with any of the loads,
but both the fastest and slowest were poorly accurate.

1:24" twist is good for a 1.405"-long cast bullet, at 1278 to 1303 fps or faster, apparently.

Next I will load up some more H322,
and really try for accuracy, with the peep and bead.
Should be about like this:
12" high at 100 yards (hold under to hit the gnat).
Dead-on at 200 yards.
Hold over by 40" at 300 yards.

The brass blade on the Beach combo front is good for poor light and dark colored target.
The globe bead (blacked) is same height, but allows precision aim and is better on light-colored target, in good light.

The lowest setting of the rear peep appears to shoot 6 inches higher at 50 yards than the same hold with the open rear sight notch (Rough & Ready combo).

If zeroed with the brass post front and notched rear at 50 yards,
I will be about 1 foot high at 100 yards with the bead and peep.
Perfect for 200-yard gongs!

Using the bead front sight in the open rear notch will be more precise than using the brass/gold post front sight of same height.

Altogether, I am very happy with the "Beach and R&R combo-combo."
Surprisingly good for a Civil War era setup.
Mr. Beach did good.


AA/XMP-5744 29.0 grains with no filler gave only 1176 fps with 680-grain bullet.
Maybe I could get an accurate AA/XMP-5744 load if I used more powder and got the velocity over 1300 fps?
But it used no filler, inaccuracy could come from that too, maybe add the filler?
However, the Lil'Gun load (30.0 grains) did achieve 1368 fps MV with 680-grain bullet,
used filler, but was still inaccurate.
I cannot make sense of this.
Will stick to H4198 or H322 for supersonic 680-grainers.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Your Black loads will shoot perfectly clean, and accurate, if you put ten percent of 5744 or 4759 under it.

Very interesting.

So for a 70.0-grain charge of Goex FFg, do you make that 63 grains of the BP plus 7 grains of 4759?
Just pour it in the bottom of the case and compress the BP on top of it,
or do you mix it all up?

Same WLR primer?

Is this legal for BPCR matches?
Unfair advantage?
Less blowing on the blow tube between shots?
If you blow anyway, like all the other competitors,
how would they ever know you were using duplex loads?
Do they have "The Powder Police" at BPCR matches random-sample your loads to analyze the powder?
Not like I am planning to take up BPCR match shooting, just curious.

Happy 241rst Fourth of July!

Rip
.

Rip, duplexing goes back to the golden age of Schuetzen. Some matches allow it, others don't. Properly done, you should be able to shoot a string or even a match without cleaning -- it's that good.

And by the way, you put up so many cool threads and posts, you owe it to yourself to become a Texan.

OK, I read some on duplex BP loading.
The 3rd Ed. of the Lyman Cast Bullet manual has lots of duplex loads.
The duplex loads vanished from the 4th Ed.
Progress or lawyers?

I bet Harry Pope used duplex loads, soon as that new-fangled smokeless was available.

And the Sheutzen boys were duplexing and triplexing the FFFFg with FFFg and FFg in the flintlock and caplock days ...

Rip
.

Duplex is not allowed by NRA, and some other local shoots.
How would they know? You would be shooting hundreds of rounds without once blowing, or otherwise cleaning your bore. You do not use a blow tube as your bore is as clean as with smokeless.
You do not compress the BP on a duplex load. Yes, reduce your total load by 7 grains. Now, each grain of smokeless equals 3 grains of black, so for my 45-90, I use 63 Goex cartridge, 7 5744, which equals 84 grains of black powder.
Do not mix it up; I have done that but it does not work as well.
DO not go over ten percent; Lyman did tests on that; once you get over that the smokeless starts taking over and produces smokeless like pressures.

dpcd,

Thanks for the reply. Plain as mud now.
I will use duplex loads unless in NRA BPCR competition.

So I can leave the blow tube at home, and powder will not need that heavy compression.


Paul A. Matthews wrote of starting with 10% priming charge and going up to 13% or 15% of the usual BP charge weight for his "priming" charge.
He does also say that one grain of smokeless 4759 replaces three grains of BP.
So his recipe based on a 70-grain BP charge could use 7 to 10.5 grains of 4759 as the priming charge.

dpcd Recipe: 7 grains of 4759 plus 49 grains of FFg for a 70-grain BP load equivalent.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Ed. listed Duplex Loads for the .50-70 Government:
"The load data apply strictly to the use of modern brass cases in new, replica rifles, made with modern steel."
Below are the maximum loads and results from a 22"-barreled Shiloh Sharps, of 1:48" twist, .511"-groove.

Primer used in all loads: "Large Rifle, Magnum" (e.g., WLR or F-215)

334-gr bullet #515139 (#2 Alloy) 2.125" OAL (compressed charge)
6.0 gr SR-4759
54.0 gr FFg
1295 fps
(that would be a 72-grain BP equivalent)

422-gr bullet #515141 (#2 Alloy) 2.312" OAL (compressed charge)
7.0 gr SR-4759
63.0 gr FFg
1348 fps
(that would be an 84-grain BP equivalent)

440-gr bullet #512138 (#2 Alloy) 2.133" OAL (compressed charge)
6.0 gr SR-4759
54.0 gr FFg
1244 fps
(that would be a 72-grain BP equivalent)

498-gr bullet #515142 (#2 Alloy) 2.223" OAL (compressed charge)
5.5 gr SR-4759
49.5 gr FFg
1150 fps
(that would be a 66-grain BP equivalent)

My Oregon Barrel Company barrel (28" long, 1:24" twist, .510"-groove)
will be faster and handle heavier bullets.


Matthews' has a ".45-108-550 imitation load" which he does with the .458 WinMag case
and a 550-gr paper-patched bullet giving 1342 fps, I guess, from a Ruger No.1.
He uses 12 grains of 4759 and 72 grains of FFg. Lessee, 12 x 3 = 36.
36 + 72 = 108 grains equivalent of BP
Just a little down under a Quigley. Pun intended.
Now I gotta remove my Ruger No.1 safety and attach a vernier tang sight there, NOT!

In my antique Trapdoor .50-70, I'll use straight BP and only 63.0 grains of that FFg,
with a 425-450-grain, soft bullet, left as cast or sized to .514-.515" diameter,
since the 3-grooves are .515" diameter, 1:42" twist.
That's another way to get less powder compression,
but still gotta use the @#!%&!!! blow tube.

Rip
.

Don't exceed ten percent no matter what Matthews did. I have all his books and he flew by the seat of his pants most of the time.
Just fill up the case, just like with plain BP; you can't have any loose powder or the priming powder will start mixing with the bp and change the internal combustion thing.
I use pistol primers usually; never magnums; it is not needed for black powder. I also use a card wad.

Next loads up:

452-grain bullet:
Duplex load: 7.0 grains SR4759 plus 49.0 grains of Goex FFg with WLR primer
AA/XMP-5744: 30.0 grains with CCI-BR2 primer and WITH A FILLER!
Blackhorn 209: 37.0 grains with F215 primer and a filler.

680-grain bullet:
H322: 40.0, 41.0, 42.0, and 43.0 grains with CCI-BR2 primer.
40.0 grains was formerly clocked at 1303 fps MV.
Hoping to get to +1400 fps with the .50-70-680 Little Bighorn Shooter.

All of above to be compared to the 70-grain FFg loads which gave, in a .510-grooved, 28"-long barrel:
452-grainer: 1225 fps
680-grainer: 1066 fps

Supersonic with BP and 450-grainers.
Subsonic with BP and 680-grainers.

Croft Barker could not crack the sound barrier even with a 34" barrel and 600-grainer.
There is just so much that can be done with BP.

Rip
.

To Bill and anyone interested in the .50-70 Govt wunderwaffen:

All these cast bullets were pan-lubed with my 50:50 mixture of BeesWax & Olive Oil (BW&OO).
I call this "Bwoo Lube."
It is not the "Blue Lube" of LBT fame.
It looks and acts more like SPG.


In the .50-70 Rolling Block with 28" barrel, .510-groove/.498-bore, 1:24" twist, verified by my twist-checker, slug, and gage-pin:

Duplex charge (7.0 gr SR4759 + 49.0 gr Goex FFg), card&newsprint wad, WLR primer, C.O.L. ~2.275", minimal powder compression:
452 gr Lee bullet: 1209 fps MV, Sd = 13 fps (5 rounds)
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1191 fps MV, Sd = 3 fps (5 rounds)

Goex FFg 70.0 gr, card&newsprint wad, WLR primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
452 gr Lee bullet: 1225 fps MV, Sd = 6 fps (10 rounds)

Blackhorn209 37.0 gr, foam wad, F-215 primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1165 fps MV, Sd = 8 fps (5 rounds)

AA5744 30.0 gr, foam wad, CCI-BR2 primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1315 fps MV, Sd = 7 fps (5 rounds): Best varmint load.

And it is very easy to get over 1400 fps with the 680-grain bullet and H322: Best buffalo load.

Adding a 1/4"-thick slice of foam wad (caulking backer rod) makes a great propellant out of the AA5744.
My loads were erratic without the foam wad.
The wise ones said not to use a filler with AA5744. Not wise in my rifle.
I use a filler with AA5744 henceforth.

The recipe for the duplex mix works great.
No blow tube was needed.

I also tested some loads in a couple of other .50-70 Govt rifles,
a McNelly Sharps carbine replica: 22" barrel, .512"-groove/.504"-bore, 1:18" twist
and a Pedersoli Sharps Long Range: 34" barrel, .512"/.504", 1:26" twist.

Later ...

Rip
.

I reckon this is the end of the trail for my .50-70 Govt handloading experiments.
Got it all worked out now.

I'll save the black powder and light-for-caliber bullets for the antique and replica trapdoors, both .50-70 and .45-70 Govt.

For the modern-steel, replica guns I will use smokeless with heavier bullets, but try to keep pressures down to about 28,000 psi max.

The McGowen Barrel twist rate calculator proved reliable

http://mcgowenbarrel.com/twist2/

and seems to be same one used here:

http://kwk.us/twist.html

For the .510/680gr in the Rolling Block with .510"-groove/1:24"-twist/28"-long barrel,
1304 fps MV is predicted to be the minimum velocity needed.
I got 1303 fps with 40.0 grains of H322, and I estimated that to be about 24 Kpsi,
found to be very uniform and accurate.
So I will just go to 41.0 grains of H322 and call it good.
Chronographed from the .510"/1:24"-twist/28"-long barrel, the 680-grainer MV:

H322 Powder, with foam wad, CCI-BR2 primer, 2.540" C.O.L.:
40.0 grains >>> 1303 fps
41.0 grains >>> 1342 fps
42.0 grains >>> 1378 fps
43.0 grains >>> 1431 fps


Going to a .512"-groove/1:26"-twist/34"-long barrel on a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 "Long Range" .50-70 Govt (oxymoron?):

1511 fps or faster is required to stabilize the .512/680-grainer in the slower, 1:26" twist.

That is unlikely to happen at less than 28,000 psi in a .50-70 Govt, even with smokeless powder.

So I need to get that Pedersoli Sharps 1874 LR with 1:26" twist rechambered from .50-70 Govt to .50-90 Sharps 2.5",
or even .50-140 Straight 3.25",
if I want to use that .512/680-grainer in such a slow twist as 1:26".

Rip
.

Good to revisit this thread. My inner .50-70 child is up and out of bed and wants his Cheerios.