The .50-70 Govt is about as fun as a rifle gets.
Very easy to load as a smokeless cartridge,
no blackpowder voodoo necessary.
Hence, I am posting about this Little Big Bore here, rather than on the BPCR forum, so as not to offend the Luddites.

So we can easily beat the larger 50-cal BPCR with Shortie and smokeless powder.

I am no longer calling it the .50-70-650 Supersonic, that is just too easy.
Though it does distinguish it from the .50-70-750 "Subsonic" from SSK, so does this:

.50-70-680 SHOOTER



I love it when a plan goes exactly as planned.

This is so good I doubt I can improve on my starting loads, one bullet two powders.
Two other powders tried too, no good.

Bullet: Hoch 680-grainer in 30:1 lead/tin alloy, .512" as cast, not sized, pan-lubed in 50:50 beeswax and olive oil.
(Distinctly spaghetti-western-flavored loads.)
C.O.L. 2.540"
CCI BR-2 Large Rifle "Bench Rest Primers"
Starline brass 1.745" average length, max 1.750".
Etc.

First good powder: H4198 35.0 grains



Second good powder, maybe my best here, they say it has won more bench rest matches than anything else,
H322 40.0 grains:



So I pulled one out of five of the shots in each group. I am easily excitable.
That is why I usually stick to three-shot groups, to test the rifle, not me!


Lil'Gun 30.0 grains (with filler) for 1368 fps
and AA-5744 29.0 grains (no filler) for 1176 fps were both good for shotgun patterns,
about 5-inch, 5-shot groups at 50 yards.

No keyholing was seen with any of the loads,
but both the fastest and slowest were poorly accurate.

1:24" twist is good for a 1.405"-long cast bullet, apparently.

Next I will load up some more H322,
and really try for accuracy, with the peep and bead.
Should be about like this:
12" high at 100 yards (hold under to hit the gnat)
Dead-on at 200 yards.
Hold over by 40" at 300 yards.

The brass blade on the Beach combo front is good for poor light and dark colored target.
The globe bead (blacked) is same height, but allows precision aim and is better on light-colored target, in good light.

The lowest setting of the rear peep appears to shoot 6 inches higher at 50 yards than the same hold with the open rear sight notch (Rough & Ready combo).

If zeroed with the brass post front and notched rear at 50 yards,
I will be about 1 foot high at 100 yards with the bead and peep.
Perfect for 200-yard gongs!

Using the bead front sight in the open rear notch will be more precise than using the brass/gold post front sight of same height.

Altogether, I am very happy with the "Beach and R&R combo-combo."
Surprisingly good for a Civil War era setup.
Mr. Beach did good.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

Amazing how 4 of 5 bullets went through one hole at 50 yards, and one "flyer," eh?
I cannot even tell how small a three-shot group was due to the blending in of 4 holes.
Well, at least I pulled one of the 5 shots on each group so at least one imprint is seen to be clearly round, no keyholing.
Maybe I did that on purpose?

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...r-1405-bullet-length

Hoch Custom 1-Cavity Nose Pour BPCR Bullet Mold 50 Caliber (512 Diameter) 650 Grain Semi-Spitzer 1.405" Bullet Length:



How did I come up with a BC = 0.436 for this bullet?

Well, look at this .459/550gr Hoch bullet of similar design, it is said to have a BC = 0.505 according to Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe:

Hoch Custom 1-Cavity Nose Pour BPCR Bullet Mold 45 Caliber (459 Diameter) 550 Grain Creedmore 1.430" Bullet Length:



Ye Olde Barnes "Original" RNSP jacketed .510/700-grainer has a BC = 0.436.
Close enough, with the sleeker nose shape of the Hoch 680-grainer that is squeezing through a .510-grooved barrel.

Hoch .510/680-gr SD = 0.373
Hoch .458/550-gr SD = 0.375
Barnes .510/700-gr SD = 0.384

So I just use the Barnes RNSP BC to approximate, for an external ballistics printout, a rainbow drop table:





THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

I need to get this brass FN up to 1700 fps to be stable in a 1:24" twist?
The minor diameter of the bullet is .495".
How will it do squeezing through a .510"-grooved/.498"-bored barrel?

And is there a red-dot base or Weaver base that is low enough to be placed in the scout-scope position on the barrel, so as not to interfere with the excellent iron sights?

For the next go-round on a single shot, a Picatinny rail as quarter rib, but milled flat where the Rough&Ready rear sight goes,
amongst the cross-slots.
Maybe on a Ruger No. 1 rebarreled for 470 NE,
aka the .47-140 (3-1/4") Lang Necked.

Alas, that will have to wait until after the .410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express magazine-rifle journey is completed.
I'll have plenty of fun with the .50-70-680 Shooter meanwhile.
Could even try the tang/Soule long-range sight, and make a higher globe front sight fit that front dovetail.

These smokeless rounds are probably just as accurate as the best BP loads.
Maybe better accuracy, certainly higher velocity is easy.
Things not possible with BP can be done with smokeless.
Hey is that why BP went out of fashion.
Is that why the Luddites don't allow smokeless powder in "BPCR" competition?









THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

A stand-out finding with this initial shooting of the "Shooter" is how sensitive it is, just like a double rifle or a big-bore handgun,
to POI elevation changes with velocity.
Faster loads shoot to a lower POI, and slower loads shoot to a higher POI, when the POA is on the same 50-yard target.
Slowing the load down by 25 fps might make it shoot about 4" higher.

I think the Gunsmith got the windage just about right on setting the sights.
Maybe I can "regulate" the loads to the proper sight elevation,
unlike regulating a double rifle to the proper load.
A lot simpler, with only one axis to work with on "The Shooter." Vertical.

Maybe I will try half-grain increments +/- to the 40.0 grain charge of H322 and see what the velocity change is, and what the POI change is.
That would make a nice graph, hopefully linear functions showing
Y = mX + B
and
Z = nX + C
where X = powder charge weight in grains, Y = MV in fps, and Z = POI distance from zero in inches.

100-yard work with the peep and bead is next.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

I have a 50/70 in a Shiloh sharps. It is a lot of fun. I also load smokeless, RL-7 and 425 grain bullets in a 1:36 twist.

Hi df06,

Thanks for the reply.

A Shiloh Sharps with 1:36" twist ought to handle up to 500-grainers?
Excellent with 425-grain bullets.

The old Buffalo Bill Trapdoor used a 1:42" so he was stuck with 425-450 grainers.
But he sure did OK with those!
Original barrels were 3-groove and about 0.515"-grooved.

What groove diameter does your Shiloh Sharps barrel have?

How long is that barrel?

Could you share your RL-7 and 425-grainer load data?
Powder charge weight of RL-7?
Chronographed velocity?

I am sure I could use RL-7 and 425-grainers (sized to fit as needed) to good effect in three of my .50-70 Govt rifles,
all but the original Trapdoor Shooter:

1. McNelly Carbine replica 1859 Sharps conversion from Cimarron/Chiappa/A.C. ArmiSport:
22" round barrel, .512"-groove/.504"-bore, 6-groove, 1:18" Twist, 8.0# rifle weight


2. Pedersoli Remington RB custom "Little Bighorn Commemorative Shooter" (subject of this thread):
28" tapered octagon barrel (Oregon Barrel Co.), .510"-groove/.498"-bore, 6-groove, 1:24" Twist, 9.75# rifle weight



3. Pedersoli replica 1874 Sharps Long Range Target Rifle:
34" barrel (1/3 octagon, 2/3 round), .512"-groove/.504"-bore, 6-groove, 1:26" Twist, 11.75# rifle weight

4. U.S. Springfield 1866 "Second Allin Alteration" Sporterized Trapdoor:
28-7/8" breech-to-muzzle length (shortened original, lined barrel), .515"-groove/.500"-bore, 3-groove, 1:42" Twist,
8.56# rifle weight, includes brass tacks "sporterizing"


Black Powder and soft-lead 425-450-grainers only in that last one.



THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

Mike Venturino, in HANDLOADER 202, December-January 2000, p. 50, "Loading the .50-70 Government":

"... -- C. Sharps, Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing, and Lone Star Rifle Company -- use .510 inch as their nominal groove diameter for .50-caliber barrels. Interestingly, both C. Sharps and Lone Star use Badger barrels with 24-inch twist rates, while Shiloh makes its own with a 36-inch twist."

I think my choice of the barrel from Oregon Barrel Company was a good one: .510-groove, 1:24" twist.
Ordered by telephone call.
Delivered by UPS 6 weeks later.
Hand written sales slip/invoice came with barrel.
"50 cal barrel per specs ... $300"
Shipping was $18.86,
$318.86 delivered.

They need to raise their prices!
Great deal for a tapered octagon barrel.
If I need another octagon 50-cal barrel I would certainly order from them again.
Maybe a 1:20" twist next time.

I ordered via:
(541) 741-4118
Found at: http://thegunworks.com/
I got this info from lurking on the BPCR forum, and I am grateful.

More:
http://nmlra.org/awpcp/show-ad...e-gun-works/barrels/

Contact Information
Contact The Gun Works
Phone: 541-741-4118
Visit Website
More Information
The Gun Works is the master distributor of Oregon Barrel Company; making rifled and smooth bore barrels; 30 caliber to 2 bore, pistol, rifle and cartridge, up to 35” octagon, tapered octagon, round, tapered round and octagon to round. Call for quote (541) 741-4118

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

Luddites:

I bow again to political correctness and agree to try blackpowder in the .50-70-680 Little Bighorn.
I will see how much BP I can compress under the Hoch 680-grainer in 30:1 tin-alloy, pan-lubed with 50:50 beeswax and olive oil,
with one of the grease grooves hanging out of the case.
I will be able to load it a fly-spec-longer if I size it down to .511" instead of leaving it .512" as cast.
There is the fly poop in the pepper!

Croft Barker does very well with a 1.260"-long, 598-grain, 30:1, Postell-type NEI bullet.:



He sizes it to .511" for use in a .510"-grooved barrel of 34" length, on a Remington Rolling Block with 1:26" twist, .50-70 Govt.
MV = 1111 fps
.50-70-600 Subsonic Silhouetter!

(Google: "The speed of sound is 343 m/s or 1126.547 ft/s (768.095 mph) at a temperature of 20°C or 68°F.")

He crams 71.0 grains of Goex 2F into a BELL, fire-formed case, neck-sized, with 0.118" of powder compression after a 24" drop tube.
2 newsprint "wads" (punched out of a piece of newspaper): Keeps wad below from adhering to bullet base.
One 0.030" wad/card compressed over the powder. Like the cardboard back of a legal pad or note tablet, yes I have a punch!
Winchester LR Magnum primer for the BP.
No mere CCI BR-2 as used with smokeless!
Croft Barker reports for this .50-70-600 load:

"1 to 1-1/2 M.O.A. out to 500 meters and beyond, good silhouette load, bucks the wind."

My heavier (OK, only 679.5 grains in 30:1) bullet is 1.405" long, quite a bit longer than 1.260".
My twist is only marginally faster, 1:24".
My barrel is only 28" long, not 34".
Will this work?
Fingers crossed.

Of course I could always revert to 450-500-grainers and have no worries about stabilizing them in my rifle.
That would be an easy and fun way to "blow smoke," and it did work fine for bison, elk and grizzly, for Bill and George, in the day.

Drop tube and compression to load'em, blow tube to shoot'em.

I might tell them about it on the BPCR forum if it works!





The original Trapdoor barrels are said to have been .515"/.500": 0.0075"-deep grooves.
My Oregon Barrel Company (measured by slug and gage pin) is .510"/.498": 0.006"-deep grooves

Do the deep grooves work better with BP fouling?
Better grab and hold on the lead bullets?

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

141 years and a week ago, Custer died for our sins, with a .50-70 Govt. Rolling Block in his hands.
Amen.
This Black Powder handloading ritual was conducted in remembrance of Custer:

I resized the once-fired brass with the Lyman .50-70 Govt FL die backed out about 3/8", my approximation of neck-sizing, worked well.

I belled the case mouths with a Lyman .50-90 Sharps 2.5" neck-expander die screwed all the way down,
both die body and expander plug fully down, bottomed out. Worked well too, and kept me from going too far into the .50-70 case.

Cases were primed with Winchester WLR primers.

I weighed each charge of Goex FFg, 70.0 grains.
A 2.5 cc Lee powder scoop, 2 dips, is almost exactly right for that charge, trickled to exact weight.

A 25"-long drop tube was used to charge the cases, cases tapped a little to settle, filling the cases to within about 0.200" of the top.

A 0.025" to 0.030"-thick card (punched from the back cover of a spiral notebook, "college-ruled")
was placed over the powder and pressed down lightly with 3/8"-diameter wooden dowel.
Top surface of this over-powder card is now 0.175" below case mouth (brass length is 1.740").

The Lyman .50-90 Sharps neck-expander die was then used to compress the powder, bottomed out again.
Top surface of the over-powder card is now 0.555" from case mouth.
That is 0.380" of powder compression.

Next two single layers of newsprint paper (punched from a newspaper with a .50-cal wad punch) were laid over the card.

All bullets were sized to 0.512" diameter, and pan-lubed with 50:50 beeswax and olive oil.

Bullets were seated and crimped like so:
450-grain Lee (1:30) C.O.L. 2.240", all three lube-grooves within case.
680-grain Hoch (1:30) C.O.L. 2.600", one of four lube-grooves showing beyond case mouth.

10 shots were chronographed for each of the two bullets loaded with same powder charge:

450-grainer, B.C. = 0.220, 5-yard chrono corrected to MV:
10-shot Average MV = 1225 fps
St.dev. = 6 fps

680-grainer, B.C. = 0.436, 5-yard chrono corrected to MV:
10-shot Average MV = 1066 fps
St.dev. = 7 fps

BP is SUBSONIC with the 680-grainer, makes round holes in target but not stable in 1:24" twist, does not group as well as the smokeless load with 1303 fps MV.

BP is SUPERSONIC with 450-grainer (only about 99 fps faster than Mach 1) but well stabilized in 1:24" twist,
more accurate, but still not as accurate as the 680-grainer at 1303 fps with smokeless.

I like the 450-grainer BP load.
I like the 680-grainer smokeless load better.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

RIP, what happened to that polite young man in your avatar?



Nice work with 322 and 4198. I am a bit surprised you couldn't find a load with XMP 5744. I have found it forgiving in just about everything up to and including .577 Snider.
Can't recall, but did you get your Beech combination front sight from MVA?

Bill,

Same kid as in avatar now, he has not gone anywhere.

Topic of this thread is apparently a "big bore" double, as in double-entendre not double-rifle.
Maybe the bwanabees could not care less about the .50-70-680 Shooter?

Will go to your remarks in the BPCR forum.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bill,

Same kid as in avatar now, he has not gone anywhere.

Topic of this thread is apparently a "big bore" double, as in double-entendre not double-rifle.
Maybe the bwanabees could not care less about the .50-70-680 Shooter?

I'm no "bwanabee" but I was enjoying reading your reports.

Grenadier,
Nice signature line there.
I am going to copy it, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.

Happy 241rst Fourth of July!

.

Next loads up:

452-grain bullet:
Duplex load: 7.0 grains SR4759 plus 49.0 grains of Goex FFg with WLR primer
AA/XMP-5744: 30.0 grains with CCI-BR2 primer and WITH A FILLER!
Blackhorn 209: 37.0 grains with F215 primer and a filler.

680-grain bullet:
H322: 40.0, 41.0, 42.0, and 43.0 grains with CCI-BR2 primer.
40.0 grains was formerly clocked at 1303 fps MV.
Hoping to get to +1400 fps with the .50-70-680 Little Bighorn Shooter.

All of above to be compared to the 70-grain FFg loads which gave, in a .510-grooved, 28"-long barrel:
452-grainer: 1225 fps
680-grainer: 1066 fps

Supersonic with BP and 450-grainers.
Subsonic with BP and 680-grainers.

Croft Barker could not crack the sound barrier even with a 34" barrel and 600-grainer.
There is just so much that can be done with BP.

Rip
.

Waiting for the range report!

Bill,

Soon! Like tomorrow I hope.
Very nice of you to reply here instead of on the BPCR forum, where I also copied the above,
just to let the Luddites know what they are missing.

I will use BP with light, grease-grooved bullets in the 50-70 Govt. That is my token of authenticity and nostalgia.
Any heavy-bullet loads in the .50-70 Govt will have to be smokeless.

If Luddites must be Luddites, they ought to go the paper-patched route in the other old BPCR chamberings that were originally loaded thusly.
Otherwise they are no more authentic nor nostalgic than me with my smokeless loads.

Rip
.

To Bill and anyone interested in the .50-70 Govt wunderwaffen:

All these cast bullets were pan-lubed with my 50:50 mixture of BeesWax & Olive Oil (BW&OO).
I call this "Bwoo Lube."
It is not the "Blue Lube" of LBT fame.
It looks and acts more like SPG.


In the .50-70 Rolling Block with 28" barrel, .510-groove/.498-bore, 1:24" twist, verified by my twist-checker, slug, and gage-pin:

Duplex charge (7.0 gr SR4759 + 49.0 gr Goex FFg), card&newsprint wad, WLR primer, C.O.L. ~2.275", minimal powder compression:
452 gr Lee bullet: 1209 fps MV, Sd = 13 fps (5 rounds)
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1191 fps MV, Sd = 3 fps (5 rounds)

Goex FFg 70.0 gr, card&newsprint wad, WLR primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
452 gr Lee bullet: 1225 fps MV, Sd = 6 fps (10 rounds)

Blackhorn209 37.0 gr, foam wad, F-215 primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1165 fps MV, Sd = 8 fps (5 rounds)

AA5744 30.0 gr, foam wad, CCI-BR2 primer, C.O.L. ~2.275":
435 gr Lyman bullet: 1315 fps MV, Sd = 7 fps (5 rounds): Best varmint load.

And it is very easy to get over 1400 fps with the 680-grain bullet and H322: Best buffalo load.

Adding a 1/4"-thick slice of foam wad (caulking backer rod) makes a great propellant out of the AA5744.
My loads were erratic without the foam wad.
The wise ones said not to use a filler with AA5744. Not wise in my rifle.
I use a filler with AA5744 henceforth.

The recipe for the duplex mix works great.
No blow tube was needed.

I also tested some loads in a couple of other .50-70 Govt rifles,
a McNelly Sharps carbine replica: 22" barrel, .512"-groove/.504"-bore, 1:18" twist
and a Pedersoli Sharps Long Range: 34" barrel, .512"/.504", 1:26" twist.

Later ...

Rip
.

I reckon this is the end of the trail for my .50-70 Govt handloading experiments.
Got it all worked out now.

I'll save the black powder and light-for-caliber bullets for the antique and replica trapdoors, both .50-70 and .45-70 Govt.

For the modern-steel, replica guns I will use smokeless with heavier bullets, but try to keep pressures down to about 28,000 psi max.

The McGowen Barrel twist rate calculator proved reliable

http://mcgowenbarrel.com/twist2/

and seems to be same one used here:

http://kwk.us/twist.html

For the .510/680gr in the Rolling Block with .510"-groove/1:24"-twist/28"-long barrel,
1304 fps MV is predicted to be the minimum velocity needed.
I got 1303 fps with 40.0 grains of H322, and I estimated that to be about 24 Kpsi,
found to be very uniform and accurate.
So I will just go to 41.0 grains of H322 and call it good.
Chronographed from the .510"/1:24"-twist/28"-long barrel, the 680-grainer MV:

H322 Powder, with foam wad, CCI-BR2 primer, 2.540" C.O.L.:
40.0 grains >>> 1303 fps
41.0 grains >>> 1342 fps
42.0 grains >>> 1378 fps
43.0 grains >>> 1431 fps


Going to a .512"-groove/1:26"-twist/34"-long barrel on a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 "Long Range" .50-70 Govt (oxymoron?):

1511 fps or faster is required to stabilize the .512/680-grainer in the slower, 1:26" twist.

That is unlikely to happen at less than 28,000 psi in a .50-70 Govt, even with smokeless powder.

So I need to get that Pedersoli Sharps 1874 LR with 1:26" twist rechambered from .50-70 Govt to .50-90 Sharps 2.5",
or even .50-140 Straight 3.25",
if I want to use that .512/680-grainer in such a slow twist as 1:26".

Rip
.

loving this, Ron

Thanks for the reply, Jeffe,

Next bit of fun with the Custer Rolling Block is to ring the gongs at 300 yards,
with 680-grainers at about 1340 fps,
using 41.0 grains of H322.
23.59" high at 100 yards will put me right on at 300 Yards.
That's the sight-in for a zero-Tennessee-elevation hold at 300 yards.
The 680-grainer will buck the wind well.
The Kentucky windage should not be bad.

Rip
.