I am looking at the future and my ability to get around the mountains of CO. I have heard good stuff about saddle mules, but also bad. Conversely, I have heard stuff about horses being too spooky in the mountains, and have experienced a few mountain side rodeo's myself.
Ideally, I want something I could ride in rough terrain, use to pack an elk out with, and can be fairly isolated on 160 acres of sage/ grass land during the off season. This doesn't mean the animal would be ignored, my brother lives on that land. Anyhow, your suggestions and opinions are appreciated

I have no first hand experience on this subject but my friend who is a veterinarian said the other day that a good mule is more sure footed than a horse and also has a lot more stamina than a horse. He also stated that horses are more inclined to feel the effects of stress more than a mule, but a good riding mule will cost a lot more than a saddle horse.

I have heard the same stuff, just looking for confirmation or opposing views.

After giving this question some thought I think the Mule is for the more experienced and insane varity of hunter/cowboy...I like them, they are tough and sure footed, and I don't trust them, but Mule folks swear by them which always told me they hadn't been around them all their life like I have and I will admit there are always exceptions to the rule..

I would always opt for a horse myself, and there are good and bad horses, but mostly you can judge a horse by the amount of horse savy his owner has...A good horse is faster than a mule, you can do more on a horse than you can a mule, he is more loyal than a mule, and on a good horse I can out rope, out cowboy, turn more cattle than anyone on a mule, so I will pick a horse every time...

That said I have always had a place for mules in my makeup and have used them a lot for hunting..For the timber country I would pick a Throughbred type mule that could step over down timber, but for toughness I want a Mexican burro/quarter horse type mule that has more fire and meaness in his heart, good in the rough desert rimrock country...In slick rock country the mule is king, you do not have to shoe him and he can walk on the slick stuff, but if you ever do shoe him then you will have to continue to do so from that time on.

Probably volumes couls be written on the subject but I think that sums up one mans opinnion who has lived most of his life with both mules and horses...

One thing that concerns me about your post is using a horse or mule for hunting and not using him on a continous basis is a recipe for disaster and probably yours....Both mules and horses deserve proper care and handling by folks who understand them and care for them otherwise you will end up running him through the Saturday sale, because he will not suit you and will probably hurt you. They need and deserve a proper diet, proper shelter, and good care, good training and a knowledgable rider...

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Between my father, grandfather, uncle and brother, we have been using animals for hunting for around forty years. We have used horses mostly, with a few mules here and there. We have never found the horses lacking.

Using the animal in the "off season" is one the most important thing you can do with an animal you plan to hunt off. Camping and trail rides are good exercise for the rider and horse. Rider and horse get comfortable with each other and acclimatized to the surroundings and terrain.

A friend of ours packs and rides mules exclusively. He really swears by them. However, he will also tell you that he went through about 35 mules for the eight he has in his pack string now.

I think you'll find it easier to find well seasoned horse than a mule.

For what it's worth,

Jim

Atcinsen..said it all, at least enough to set you rite. There are a whole lot more good usable hores than there are mules. have used both & a good mule is priceless, & anything else is bait. go with the horse, if it dont work out it is salable..
Jackpine savage[Al] codger

I have opted for a draft mule due to it's large load capacity, sure-footedness and overall toughness. My mule would be used daily for work around our 33 acre granite-laden property to keep him fit, and as a point of fact, I lovingly care for any animal in my charge. Now....my problem is that I cannot find reputable mule dealers/breeders in my area of Golden, CO. I have considered going out to Leadville to see if any folks out there could help me locate a quality animal, although I have no problem with traveling cross-country to acquire a sound 'friend'. Money is not really an issue, as I've learned a long time ago that it's the long-term care that is expensive. Any input from the readers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


PS- Naturally, I'll be needing a big bore saddle gun(single-shot or lever, short barrel)......suggestions?

Hey Kitaru-
We are only about 40 miles apart. I live north of Denver, but my acreage is in S. Colorado. I am not to the point of having the free money nor time to do this, but eventually want a good mule. As far as a good saddle gun, there are as many opinions as there are people! There are some knowledgable guys on the the Lever Gun forum.

Hello All,
One thing to consider is that mules make a LOT of noise with their braying, damn near drove me crazy on one of the hunts that they were used for. They were really sure footed,but I could not put up with the racket that they make.
Another thing, they are herd animals, so you will probably need at least two.
Regards and good luck.
Lee

LOL...see, there's two things right there I would have never considered! I know from past experiences that elk are not spooked by horses, but mule brayin'?! Unfortunately, my Dad, who is my only current hunt-partner only wants a stocky quarterhorse, so I'd only have the one mule, but there is a chance that I could acquire a couple of donkeys for pack-duty....would that comprise a 'herd'? And nice to meet you, 3584elk! We'll have to chat sometime.....the old man and I are just finishing up a *AHEM* hunt over in area 20 amidst the blowing snow and arctic chill! So, your property is down Walsenberg(sp?)way?

PS: Thanks for takin' the load over there in the sandbox, RGRX!

Kitaru,

My property (and hometown) are in Southern Colorado, not for from Alamosa (GMU 80). Nothing wrong with Walsenburg though!

The braying is an interesting point that I hadn't considered- Thanks RGRX!

Speaking of mules, I think several of you will appreciate the following story from a book I have about New Mexico, from the very early days to modern times.

________________________________________________

After WWII, the U.S. Govt. began expanding its taking of gigantic areas of remote (and not so remote) lands under Eminent Domain, in New Mexico, in order to establish the firing ranges, etc., for missle development. First "takings" had been to establish the atomic bomb facilities at Alamagordo, New Mexico.

Then in the late 1940s, the Govt. wanted much, much more land to enlarge White Sands Proving Grounds, so they forced all the ranchers in the vast area to sell their ranches to the U.S. Govt. ... except for one lone, old, crusty, very stubborn rancher named John Prather, whose family had been ranching there since the early Apache wars of a century ago. He said they'd have to kill him to take his ranch. And he meant it, too. Things came very close to that event, too.

After long, fruitless threats, and a lot of negative publicity against the Govt., they finally agreed to allow him to stay on his property until he died. After they finally relented, one U.S. Army officer said to him, "Mr. Prather, it's going to be extremely dangerous here for you. We're going to be shooting big rockets over your house."

John Prather looked at him and said, "Rockets? I am not afraid of rockets. I have been raising mules all of my life."

"Tularosa, Last Of The Frontier West," C.L. Sonnichsen, University of New Mexico Press, © 1960.
________________________________________________

L.W.

Nice! That's a cute story. I had one occasion to trim and shoe a couple of mules, and I actually thought they were easier than the horses. I reckon they were feelin' benevolent that day toward newbie farriers.....LOL! Hey, 3584, do you find a lot of elk in the southern plains down yonder, or more back in the trees and mountains? Thanks!

Kitaru,

I killed a 5x6 in the timber at 11,000 feet in October this year (GMU76). Never hunted them on the plains unless you call sage flats "the plains" !

http://www.hunt101.com/img/344002.jpg

Yea, high sage is what I meant. CONGRATS on your 5x6! He's a BEAUT!!!!

Ray Atkinson has never been on a mule. A mule walks much faster than a horse, in fact if you are hunting in Oak scrub a mule will be too fast for you to clear your legs of the brush. A mule will never hurt you in the mountains unless he kicks you or bites you. He sure won't fall off any ledges or slip down any trails.

A good Mule all the way!!!!!!!!! van

quote:

I have heard stuff about horses being too spooky in the mountains, and have experienced a few mountain side rodeo's myself.

This varies from horse to horse! Some breeds have a tendency to be more "spooky" than others. I would not select a Thoroughbred, an Arabian, or a Saddlebred as a hunting horse, unless I knew a lot about the specific horse, and knew it to be a calm one.

Mules are often quite calm animals, and they are smart. But sometimes they have a tendency to not be too interested in what YOU think they should be doing!

quote:

Originally posted by Leanwolff:

John Prather looked at him and said, "Rockets? I am not afraid of rockets. I have been raising mules all of my life."

"Tularosa, Last Of The Frontier West," C.L. Sonnichsen, University of New Mexico Press, © 1960.

Great story!! - reminds me of the Mexican sheepherder near Ocate, N.M. years ago whose "sheep dog" was a mule. He'd send it out every afternoon to bring the sheep up to the barn, and it did!!

I have to--mostly--go with Ray on this one. Altghough my parent's day job were teachers/school administrators, I grew up on a ranch in Western Colorado. I was riding horses, babysittin' cows in the high country, and elk hunting with horses from 1st grade on.

I did not have much experience with mules until recent years--and I have been very, very impressed with mules. Most of the mules I have been riding come from a few breeders/trainers, so maybe other mules ane not quite as easy going as the bunch I have been riding.

A few years ago, some acquantinces trailered in a batch of mules from Missouri. We did a 15 mile ride with mules and horses in the San Juans from about 8500ft to 11500ft the same day the mules arrived. The horses had been summering at about 8000ft for the previous month. I had ridden some of the horses previously and knew this bunch of horses. The mules walked those horses into the ground. I was very surprised.

The mules I have been riding have been plenty gentle, easy to get along with, did what I asked of them--even when bushwacking off trail.

Mules look goofy, have a goofy looking trot and lope, but if you don't plan to rope or barrel race, and do plan to hunt with 'em, I would choose a mule. But, geez, are they expensive.

Oh, and they do have one of the sneakiest kicks on the planet--just ask my pair of Aussies.

Casey

I forgot the most important part--Ray's last paragraph on the care of riding critters. Feeding them, and taking care of their feet is relatively easy. In order for ANY riding stock to be worth a hoot--they have to trained well and ridden OFTEN--preferably by somebody who has a little knowledge. Horses and mules are every bit as high maintainance as owning a Ferrari. Unlike a Ferrari, a guy can't just park 'em and forget about them until next time.

Casey

Thanks for that, Casey......I am pretty sure I'm going to get a draft mule based on all the sound input. Know any good breeders? Thanks!

I know this thread has been inactive for a while, but I'll toss out my 2 cents worth anyway.

I definitelly am not a cowboy, but years ago I had both a quarterhorse and a mule that I used for hunting in the rocky, steep mountains here in southern Arizona. The horse gave a much more comfortable ride, and would pack deer and javelina.

That horse would have been all I wanted if I hadn't ridden my mule.

"Jenny" was a huge mule that looked as if she belonged behind a plow, but she actually was a great hunting animal. I had only to point her where I wanted to go and she would find the best way up or down the steepest, brushiest places. Whenever she did get brushed up, she'd calmly stop, back up, and find another place to go.

She apparently had owned by other hunters before me, because whenever I jumped off, grabbed my rifle, and leaned over the saddle to shoot she would hold her breath and stand absolutely still until the shot went off.

What a mule she was! She packed every deer, javelina and elk I every put on her, but she wanted nothing to do with bears.

If I were younger and wanted a hunting mount I would buy a mule, no matter what it cost, if I could find one like Jenny.

I have been riding horses and mules for almost 60years.There is a lot of BS on this thread Ray Atkinson got it pretty much right.I have ridden some good mules but they are hard to find,they are pretty much about their selves,and a good horses is much easier to find.w/regards

3584elk Several people have already pointed out that there are some good and some not so good horses & mules. No matter what you end with if you spend some serious time working with them you will likely make out OK. On the other hand if you think you can use horses or mules for 2weeks a year and turn them loose in a pasture for the other 50 weeks a year,you my friend are headed for a wreck !

It is like anything else, the best horse vs. the best mule? A toss up probably. But a good mule is more like a pet than a good horse. I have loved my mules.

A good mule is more sure-footed than a horse and more predictable, because they are more unpredictable. Makes you pay attention!

Finding a good mule...that is going to be tough. And they all instinctively hate bears, or rocks or bushesthat might be bears, though they may have never seen or smelt one.

And Ray has it right. They all deserve the best care. No mule or horse should be left in a pasture by itself. They are herd animals not a '85 Chevy up on blocks.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It is like anything else, the best horse vs. the best mule? A toss up probably. But a good mule is more like a pet than a good horse. I have loved my mules.

A good mule is more sure-footed than a horse and more predictable, because they are more unpredictable. Makes you pay attention!

Finding a good mule...that is going to be tough. And they all instinctively hate bears, or rocks or bushesthat might be bears, though they may have never seen or smelt one.

And Ray has it right. They all deserve the best care. No mule or horse should be left in a pasture by itself. They are herd animals not a '85 Chevy up on blocks.

I've been using a little foxtrotter gelding for 7 years now. when he was 3 years old, he had never packed an elk or been in the mountains. However, he did trust me. I took him into a place I could never get back into afterwards, packed out a small bull the first he ever saw, and he never turned a hair. I still don't know how we got in there, but I was sweating bullets on the way out. My partner says if I ever sell him off the place we're done, and we've known each other for 50 years. My Ft is about 14.3 hands, maybe 950 pounds. He goes through deadfall, goes at night, and points elk. I also have a little walking horse gelding that we packed out on last year. He isn't big, but he packed two quarters no problem. I have friends who have used FTs for years and packed as mucb as 300 pounds on them (once in a while). I'll go with a good horse, but have never owned a mule. Another friend uses mules and likes them - says they are tougher than horse, and can carry more size for size. I don't overload my animals, so that isn't a problem. I have also seen some bad wrecks with horses when folks don't use good sense and get their horses used to things ahead of time.

quote:

One thing that concerns me about your post is using a horse or mule for hunting and not using him on a continous basis is a recipe for disaster and probably yours....Both mules and horses deserve proper care and handling by folks who understand them and care for them otherwise you will end up running him through the Saturday sale, because he will not suit you and will probably hurt you. They need and deserve a proper diet, proper shelter, and good care, good training and a knowledgable rider...

Mr. Atkinson's advice is probably the best and most overlooked advice on the topic, IMHO.

I would then go on to add that horses and mules are gregarious herd animals. A horse or mule alone will not do well emotionally, physically or mentally. Never keep just one.

the mule vs. horse issue brings lots of variables into the equation. One must really be honest w/ himself when it comes to choosing an animal to hunt with. In my opinion, a good mule w/ as good of rider will be able to go more places, cover more ground, be less apt to get hurt (rider and animal)than a horse and rider. My dad has hunted off both since he was old enough to ride. Now he's about ready to hang up his spurs. At one time he guided elk hunters in his early twenties. I've heard several horror stories about horses panicking when the terrain got steep, lunging uphill till they run out of breath then pitching backward and rolling all the way to the bottom.
On the other hand mules will just slow down, downshift gears and keep plugging along. At a tight spot, they keep their composure and figure out how to get through it.However to train a mule requires a trainer that is smarter than the mule. My dad's #1 rule was never ever under any circumstances fell sorry for a mule. #2 rule was once is a habit w/ a mule. If you don't have time to train one properly there will arise situations where you have to do what the mule wants because they got away with it once. Dad and I were hunting mule deer in the JohnDay country in central Oregon several years back. The guy we went with had hunted it for over 20 years. He knew how to hunt it ,where the deer would tend to be,where they go when pressured etc. After the third day, we ran into one of his buddies on a horse. During the conversation we dicussed where we had been, what we'd seen etc. He all but called us liars about the ground we had covered. A mule will walk right at 6-7 mph on an even trail. If they aren't in very good shape on a steep uphill they will stop when they need to catch their breath and then continue.
Now the downside. Dad's got two mules he wouldn't sell for 10000/ea. The one we use to pack w/ would go for several thousand ea.

caviar:
Your Dad's take on mules intelligence, training, and habits (good and bad) are exactly what I see in mine.
Some anticipated "short" training sessions get real long, when the mule knows "it didn't have to do that the last time we encountered (fill in the blank)....."
My sympathy to the person with a truly bad mule, as a good one is irreplaceable.

Horses verses Mules......Ummmmmmmmmm
Well, I have been around horses, pony's and mules since I was knee high to a grasshopper.

In horse's there are many breeds and that is something you need to check out for yourself. My pick is the Morgan or Quarter horse. I would stay with bloodlines that do not have much of that running blood in their pedigree. I am speaking of the Three Bars, Leo, Top Deck, type running Quarter horses.

You want a real working cow type horse for those high mountains and one that is not subject to jump at the least little thing in front of it's eyes. One with a very good handle on it that is not to tall. Stay around the 15 hands mark, not 15.3 or 16 hands like some I have seen in shows in the last 15 years or so.

Horses with breeding like King P-234 or Wimpy, or Two Eyed Jack breeding OK. NO running blood!
You want a good handling horse that is at least a 6 year old up and not over 10 years old.

Mules, like those raised in Missouri are hard to come by but they are mighty fine for the purpose if they are broke well. I like a Mule that stands at least 14.2 and not over 15 hands.

Mules are very good walking all day but do have a mind of their own. Often as not they will buck up on you and it can take awhile to get them to do as you wish. I don't trust a mule riding it with a saddle in the mountains, especially on narrow cliffs. You think you are controlling that mule but he is in control, you are just along for the ride.

A good Quarter horse that is broke and trained properly for the mountains is the way to go in my humble opinion. I can make a horse do what I want done, even if it is not willing. A mule is another story. They are tops at packing out the equipment and meat, lots of stamina. Horses need a lot more conditioning for those high mountains. Mules are easy keepers food wise and can go longer without water or food verses a horse.

Just curious vet how much actual mountain experience do you have living in MO.

Mules are far more durable and one hell of alot smoother riding,then horses in Mountain terrain.They also don't tear up their legs as bad in blow downs and granite.

As for horse size. Fifteen hands is a bare minimum. Most serious mountain horses you'll find,are in the 16 to 17 hand range. If the horse is used alot they'll easily hold up to 15 years old. The main breeds you'll find are quarter horses and quarter horses crossed with draft,the desired effect being heavily legged horses that will hold up,to two or three months of continual use at a time in harsh mountain conditions.

Sledder now just where in the Sam Hill would you like to start? My folks owned a ranch in so called mountain country and I spent a whole lot of time in the summer and the fall on that place. My mother was from Missouri my Pa was from Idaho. My uncle and aunts are from Wyoming and Colorado. My kids live in Colorado today.

Tall horses are a pain in the butt to mount and dismount from in case you don't carry a ladder on the side of your saddle. A 17 hand high horse is a nightmare for a man who stands 5'10" or 6 foot tall.....You must be one tall cowhand hey? Now you have just told me how much you really know about horses in the field or mountains.

Mules have there place but don't want a mule in a tight situation, they sometimes think to much (get you in trouble) and a horse does what it is told to do, provided it has a rider atop and the animal has a handle on it to begin with cowboy. Mules are great for packing but I won't ride one in the high mountains on narrow trails. Regards.... TONK

I agree with Vet, he knows what he is talking about. However, my favorite horses are gaited. I've been riding/packing Tennesse Walkers for the last 24 years and find them excellent in the montains around Jackson Hole. That is everything from Elk in the timber, deer in the alpine country and bighorn sheep across slides and in the rocks. Then, when your on a flat trail, it is a very pleasant ride that will cut your trail time almost by at least 25%.

So basically vet,you have realtives that live in mountain country and you don't.

As for getting on a horse thats 16 or 17 hands. Its fairly simple,especially in the mountains.Which further demonstrates your lack of horse knowledge.

Only a jackson hole transplant would use tennesee walkers.

I am pretty keen on Missouri Foxtrotters for mountain horses. I know a lot of Wyoming outfitters that use them as they are very easy on guest.

After I retire from the Navy I would like to have about 10 Norwegian Fjord horses and move back to Alaska.

I think they would be ideal up there.

I have also owned a Fox Trotters and am keen on them too.

Sledder, we have a very different opinion. I have two mares that are over 16 hands. They are impressive animals, God love 'em, but are a pain in the ass to get on and off of in the mountains. Especially in the fall/winter when you are wooled up with long underwear and pacs. There have been lots of times when we jump elk, and it is a long way down and for what ever reason, you could not get off on the uphill side. There are also times when you should get off your horse to glass, but don't because it is too much of a hassle to get back one.

The other problem is trying to tie a one man diamond on a horse over 16 hands when you have a top pack. Man, that is tough! Not to mention, going down a trail with low branches!

I have learned my lessons and now prefer a medium sized horse. Perhaps age has some thing to do with it.

I have used both mules and horses in norther british columbia on lenghty hunting trips, the mules we had were great, tough, calm and bush wise, we road and packed them, the horses I used, were ok, my personal riding horse is fantastic however the hores I used for packing just did not like the bush, did ok but did not seem to "enjoy" it. As far as only using the animals sporadically, I find with my horses they need constant attention, I have one mule as well in with the horses, she doesn't like attention but gets it anyhow, my uncle on the other hand has five mules, he uses them about three weeks a year, in the past five years that I have been hunting with him he has NEVER had a problem with them of any type, they are older animals and he has had them for fifteen or so years, perhaps he is lucky, however thought I would share my experiences with you, mules or horses either or just get a good one.

Walker,
You my friend are dead wrong, my dad had about 50 mares that had mule colts every year. My brother and I broke all those colts to sell. In the summer we broke mules to make spending money. We did this in the Texas Big Bend country, not on some flat brush country San Antonio ranch, so get your facts right before you squeel. I have owned more mules and horses than most folks have ever seen..

A mule IS sure footed, so what? so is a good horse, and there are a lot more good horses than good mules, and my horse can out run any mule, I can rope off him and I can do anything anyone can do on a mule, and my horse won't wait until he gets me in a compromising position and kill me..your mule will get you to one degree or another, its just a matter of time.

I don't have a problem with using mules and I have had some good ones, but I don't compare them to a horse, they are like a cat, too damn independant IMO.

Thank A vet;You are dead wrong when you call Three Bars a running QH sire.He sired QH,s in every discipline,did more to advance th QH breed than any other sire and is the only TB sire to be recognized by the AQHAFoundation registry.w/regards