quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Walker,
A mule IS sure footed, so what? so is a good horse, and there are a lot more good horses than good mules, and my horse can out run any mule, I can rope off him and I can do anything anyone can do on a mule, and my horse won't wait until he gets me in a compromising position and kill me..your mule will get you to one degree or another, its just a matter of time.

I don't have a problem with using mules and I have had some good ones, but I don't compare them to a horse, they are like a cat, too damn independant IMO.

Ray, for someone who has been around a lot of mules, you didn't learn much from them. That old wives tale about "they'll wait for the chance to get you" is pure nonsense. Most folks I've seen who don't like them are also not liked by the mules. They are smart, and excellent judges of character . I've been raising them for many years, have published @ 100 magazine articles on them and was President of the North American Saddle Mule Assn. I've even testified as an expert witness on mules before the FL state legislature. As for speed, my jack and mules normally outwalk all the horses we ride with and I have a mule out of a Dash For Cash mare that has outrun every QH she's ever run against. Someone said they have "funny trots" or something like that. I can say we often win overall high point in pleasure shows against horses. They are judged for correctness of gait in many of those classes. They even beat the horses in the finesse events like dressage, reining and jumping.
If you want to read more, go to my web site & read some of the articles there. One in particular about mule ability is "Make Mine a Mule" and another about mule character is "All Mules Go To Heaven". All the examples in those are true. http://members.aol.com/brayhaven/bj.htm

I use em both. I have had some really worthless mules and some excellent mules, and the same for the horses. You couldn't buy the ones I have now for any amount of money. Each animal has to be judged individually and you just can't tell until you give them a try.
If I had my choice between an excellent mule or excellent horse, I would pick the mule.

Brayhaven,
You may be right, and the mules I have been around are from unsually bad mares that we didn't want to breed to a horse, and half Mexican/half Mamouth jacks, and thats not a winning combo other than the mules have a lot more fire than the mules you ride, but it certainly is a trade off, they were/are tough as hell, but tended to be a little mean..

I know a lot of mule people and they love mules and I allow thats fine..so please allow me to hate the SOBS, they have caused me too much pain and grief to ever really like one..I have never seen one that could outrun a good horse, or win a champion ship roping, or compete against a horse in any competition..The are sure footed and make a good hunting animal if they are broke right. But I could always get a lot more done on the ranch with a horse that could catch a cow or calf..

On the real side I have owned a few very good mules, but I have owned a ton of good horses, so please allow me this one opinnion to take to my grave!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Brayhaven,
You may be right, and the mules I have been around are from unsually bad mares that we didn't want to breed to a horse, and half Mexican/half Mamouth jacks, and thats not a winning combo other than the mules have a lot more fire than the mules you ride, but it certainly is a trade off, they were/are tough as hell, but tended to be a little mean..

I know a lot of mule people and they love mules and I allow thats fine..so please allow me to hate the SOBS, they have caused me too much pain and grief to ever really like one..I have never seen one that could outrun a good horse, or win a champion ship roping, or compete against a horse in any competition..The are sure footed and make a good hunting animal if they are broke right. But I could always get a lot more done on the ranch with a horse that could catch a cow or calf..

On the real side I have owned a few very good mules, but I have owned a ton of good horses, so please allow me this one opinnion to take to my grave!

I not only allow your opinion, Ray, I respect it. I also find it unusual that we could have such different opinions of, & experience with, mules. I too have done some ranch work. In fact I started cowhunting (it what we call a roundup in FL) when I was about 10 (50 years ago). They paid us a dollar a head to bring those FL scrub cows out of the swamps. It would sometimes take a half day to get one to the pens and then, he'd try to hook your horse and head back to the scrub. They could outrun a horse, were wild as deer and mean as a rattlesnake. I didn't use mules back then. I went to mules about 20 years ago and would never go back. Most of my horse friends who have tried mules feel the same way. Pat Parelli bought a mule from a friend & trained it in reining. He won all but one of the 50 some odd reining competitions he put it in & lost those by going off pattern. Another friend beat the FL state barrel champion on her thoroughbred mule at an exhibition. They invited the mule to have a laugh. Guess who got the laugh . I've seen mules beat horses in alot of endurance races. I sold a lady a mule a few years ago & she won 11 competitive trail competitions last year against an average 50 horses. never came in 2nd. They excell in team penning due to fast lateral movement, acceleration & the ability & love of watching a cow.
They were banned from the Texas reining horse assn compettion after one cleaned up in a few of their shows.
This "Dash for Cash" mule I have won a halter class last year against 19 quarter horses . She always places 1st or 2nd against horses in pleasure classes. I wish we lived closer, I'd get some of that money in your wallet, running her against any horse in your remuda .
Here's a yearling picture of her:


Greg,
Anything a horse can do, a mule can do better (except make babies).
"In life, every man deserves a good woman, a good dog & a good mule." (not necessarily in that order)

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
right Skyline Now we need a section on AIRPLANES and a section on the right kinda WOMAN and we would have listed every thing worth fighting for in life [faster horses-younger women-more money-older whisky] guess the only thing I left out was ;bad luck 'bad health 'my personal opinion, and old age. but then who the hell wants to hear about much less lie about that kind of crap

I believe we have one on airplanes & I agree, but we'd get in trouble quickly with a "women" forum . As for getting "bit" by mules, you may be right. You'll also get bit with horses only a lot faster and more painfully . I used horse for 30 years before I went to mules. I've been hurt more by horses in a year than in 20 years with mules. What do they use in the grand canyon..? Only mules are allowed to pull carriages in New Orleans because the horses couldn't take the heat. Back in the gold rush in Alaska all the horses died from the cold in one town, the first winter. They brought in mules and had no more problems. The town: Deadhorse. Of course you all know that a mule won the prestigious Del Mar (Calif) country club challenge of the breeds 3 years running (Dolly Barton). And you also recall the great american bicentennial "horse" race from New York to Calif. was won by a mule (Lord Fauntelroy AKA Leroy). I could go on but you get the idea. Mules are tougher, more level headed and have less health issues than horses. Not to mention, much smarter. That may be why some folks don't like em. They don't want to be riding something smarter than they are

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
i JUST KNEW SOME ONE WAS GOING TO SMACK ME ON THE gRass WITH A BOAT PADDLE FOR THAT HARSH OPINION!! JUST KHEW IT !! by the way I did ride a mule in to the grand canyon one time - but by god I walked out -in my cowboy boots NOW DON'T WHACK ME AGAIN besides I am looking at a picture of my little Q horse stud next to your blue ribbon mule and to my eye that mule has a big head and a long jaw not to hurt any feelings but i woild say its a little mule headed

Er...uh... it's a mule. It's supposed to be mule headed . They need room for all those brains I like a head that looks like a mule which, is why I kept this one. But My jack throws horsey heads on mules for people who just have to have "sea horse " head on their mule. See below "nicker bars" out of a QH mare (grandaughter of 3 bars). BTW, QH's are my favorite horses if it helps any

Thats no mule colt, its a Henny! and that is a really, really nice looking mule you pictured but it won't outrun my roping horse, and no mule will handle cattle like my horse, NEVER not in a million years..I been listening to Mule persons all my life, they are adamant until they get crippled or killed by one of those loving big eared monsters!!

Why do Mule and Arabian horse people always tell me their animal can do anything a quarter horse can, I guess because the quarter is a the standard by which all 4 legged animals are compared to and that includes dogs and cats!

All in fun guys, it takes the monoteny out of these threads and its nothing to get uptight over....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Thats no mule colt, its a Henny! and that is a really, really nice looking mule you pictured but it won't outrun my roping horse, ....

You're sure right about that Ray, She is the laziest mule I ever had and can't outrun a fat donkey. She's my wife's trail mule. She ain't a hinny though. I delivered her out of that Three Bars mare myself & can testify to it Speaking of donkeys, it's bad enough for those horse guys when my mule outruns their quarter horse, but my jack does it occasionally too & that really hurts em . He's run the barrels in 22 seconds.



Is a half horse better than a quarter horse ?

Greg

"It ain't ignorance so much as folks knowin' a lot that just ain't so" Josh Billings

Whoops, Brayhaven, you let the cat out of the bag..a 22 second barrel mule won't cut it in Idaho, Okla. or Texas..17 and 18 is what our high school kids win barrels with..and high school nationals will really blow your skirt up..

BTW I was referring to the baby colt as a Henny, I am pretty sure that is what it is..I have broke a lot of Hennys and they are much priettier than a mule, but I have found them to be meaner and more contrary than a mule, I guess thats from following that Jackass mama around..

My adopted second family had a mule named Hollywood because he was so pretty and he was a good mule..Sold him to Buddy Heaton a PRCA rodeo clown and he took that mule to fame and fortune and the mule ended up where is namesake was, in Hollywood. I saw him in several movies..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Whoops, Brayhaven, you let the cat out of the bag..a 22 second barrel mule won't cut it in Idaho, Okla. or Texas..17 and 18 is what our high school kids win barrels with..and high school nationals will really blow your skirt up..

BTW I was referring to the baby colt as a Henny, I am pretty sure that is what it is..I have broke a lot of Hennys and they are much priettier than a mule, but I have found them to be meaner and more contrary than a mule, I guess thats from following that Jackass mama around..

My adopted second family had a mule named Hollywood because he was so pretty and he was a good mule..Sold him to Buddy Heaton a PRCA rodeo clown and he took that mule to fame and fortune and the mule ended up where is namesake was, in Hollywood. I saw him in several movies..

Er uh Ray, I hate to say it but that "baby colt" (pardon your redundancy) is not a hinny (not spelled "henny") and most of them are no different from mules. Did you not understand my post? She's out of a quarter horse mare (grandaughter of 3 bars) You horse people are harder headed than my mules .
Also that 22 second barrel time was for my jack. That's a donkey, not a mule in case you need some biology The mules he sires are faster than the horses, as I stated earlier. I realize you consider yourself an expert on mules, but you really should do a little more research before you write inaccurate information about them . Here's one of several articles I've published on hinnies that may clear up some of your confusion http://members.aol.com/brayhaven/bj5.htm

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
Brayhaven that is a nice short well done paper on mule’s and handling mules. You make your points well, and accurate I think. Good job. the thing we [one forth of a horse fans] point out [off and on] and you speak to in the paper is the extra effort in training the special handling the reading a mules mood not quite so necessary with a horse. All this extra and additional effort and consideration for what? What the paper fails to do though well developed, is convince the horseman why he should go the extra time additional patience and larger effort required to train and develop the mule. What are the extra benefits I should expect for stealing a ride on, and kissing the ass of, a mule for the next 30 years? The paper infers [not get kicked in the head]. Not quite compelling enough to put me in the mule business. All jokes aside this is I think the debate running here. GOOD PAPER WOULD LIKE TO READ MORE YOU WRITE WELL

Well, Thanks for the compliment. I too was a die hard horse fanatic for 30 years. I still love horses. I just prefer mules. The reasons are many: why you would take the extra effort to "rain & develop" the mule? The training part is easy. Mules take a little longer to train but they retain what they learn much better. I got on my green mule yesterday that I hadn't been on in @ 4 months and she was exactly where I'd left her. Most horses would have been back at square one. I can remember the cow horses we used many years ago. The green ones forgot everything over the weekend

Dr Robert Miller, who is a great writer & horse behaviorist (& mule afficionado) says
"all mules MUST be trained the way all horses SHOULD be trained." I agree completely; slow & deliberate with no short cuts.

Aside from the training, mules are less likely to blow up & dump you in the back country. They are very consistent & most are easy going mounts; though I've been on some hot ones.
They have a very strong self preservation instinct which some mistake for stubborness. If they are taking care of themselves, they are taking care of you as well IME.

They have less problems with colic, founder, navicular disease etc. They have better feet & tougher legs. They do more work on less calories. They won't usually overeat or drink
when they're hot. They live longer thahn horses.

They are much smarter than horses. Parelli said the dumbest mule he ever trained was smarter than the smartest horse. I guess there are those who would consider brains a liability, but I don't .
Ray Lum was a big time horse & mule trader and philosopher who was immortalized in William Ferris' book YOU LIVE AND LEARN, THEN YOU DIE AND FORGET IT ALL. Ray often spoke of the intelligence of mules.
"A mule has got twice as much sense as a horse. You won't jump him in the river, and if you get him out of a barn on fire he won't run back in. Not a mule. But you can pull a horse out of a barn on fire and the son-of-a-bitch will jerk loose from you, run right back in there and burn up. You get a mule out, and, goddamn, he'll thank you for it. He won't run back in that fire."

They are much more friendly than horses. Read "All Mules Go To Heaven" about mule character: I swear all the stories are true.
http://members.aol.com/brayhaven/bj2.htm

All of these mule traits are well worth a little effort, that should be expended whether you're training a mule or a horse IMO. But they are especially valuable in a hunting mount, which I believe was the initial point of this thread.

As for the ribbing, I get used to it. It makes it all the sweeter when my mule beats a horse in a race or pleasure show, which usually happens.

Greg
" In life, every man deserves a good woman, a good dog, and a good mule." (not necessarily in that order)

I forgot to add, they are much smoother riding too; especially if you get the flying model. Here I am (dressed as Zeuss) riding Pegus-Ass.

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
gota tell ya Greg \\\ if you had been riding a q horse on that one you would have been the one that loooked the part of the ass \\\I am startin to see your point on some of the special useage of a mule over a quarter horse \\[Pegus was white and Zeuss was the one with the bad temper you got it the other way round here]

Well he was white in the old segregated Greek mythology. But this is now & we have to be PC. This newer model is also a lower maintenance color and has a horn with a lot more authority. That old one had a pretty squeaky voice . The ears on that old one were pretty wimpy too. BTW we got a standing ovation at this show (costume class) which was at the Tennesee Walking Horse Celebration in Shelbyville, TN.
FWIW, My favorite horse is, and has always been the quarter. I raised them, showed them and stood a QH stud for years.
Greg
"There is no character howsoever good and
fine, but it can be destroyed by ridicule
howsoever poor and witless. Observe the
ass, for instance: his character is about
perfect, he is the choicest spirit among all the
humbler animals, yet see what ridicule has
brought him to. Instead of feeling
complimented when we are called an ass, we
are left in doubt."

Mark Twain, From Pudd'nhead Wilson,
1894

OK I cant spell, but that is all I will concede! Howsomever if you ever get that long eared animal to Idaho, I will put up big money my rope horse will out run him or rope cattle better, calves or team rope and I will make it worth your trip down here..

I will concede that your long eared wannabe horse is smooth gaited and good enough to hunt off of or pack off of...

As to nomenclature allow me to suggest that is local and condusive to where ya hail from!

A lot of folks would mistake that short eared colt for a Hennie (is that correct) unless his mane didn't role over pretty soon.

Your correct I am no expert on mules, but I have been around lots of them, broke lots of them, and used them in rough country in the Texas Big Bend country, but they never interested me much except to hunt off..

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
hate to change the subjict off mules but \\\do you guys have stuff to hunt in the winter back there in florida \\\thats worth a 3,000 mile flight from LAX \\\might bring Ray along and while we are out there we will check up on you and see if you are fibben about the hennreettas think I spelled it right unlike Ray.Ray can't spell

Depends on when you come. Great deer & hog hunting from Sep (bow) & Nov through Jan (gun). Outstanding turkey hunting in the spring: mid Mar-mid Apr. We have some good waterfowl & dove shoots as well. Plenty of varmits, coyote, bobcat, fox etc. Access to really good hunting can be hard to find, though we have a lot of public land in N. FL that's (mostly) not hunted hard. I have a pretty good lease here in N. FL.
http://wld.fwc.state.fl.us/hunting/default.asp
Salt water fishing is great here as well. Trout & redfish in the flats year round.
I'll warn you though. Once you get around these mules, you may just catch the fever & go home & breed your QH mares to a jack . If you're serious about coming down this way, let me know & I'll give you more specific info on hunting here. I'd like to meet both of you. I respect & enjoy reading, your comments here on AR.

I have mules to hunt and pack and I hunt with friends that have mostly horses. The mules don't make anymore noise than the horses.
They cross water more safely(they don't run across a rockey river bed).
I have never thought that any of them(mules) make bad choices in choosing a path. They will travel 30 miles a day in rugged terain.

Well that was entertainig. I was raised on horses. My uncle raised mules and I like them both. But even Ray has to admit that mules will keep you laughing more than a horse will.

Barny

You can always tell a mule man, but you can't tell him much!

Very entertaining (and refreshingly polite) exchange, you guys.

I ain't no horseman to speak of (do have a jumper which won over $250,000 last year) and sure ain't never owned a mule.

I will observe, however, that my friends who are lion guides in Arizona won't have a horse in their string(s). They like stayin' alive too much where the rocky, slippery, slidy, really rough country footing lies. Mules will often flat refuse to go where it ain't safe, while horses trust their master's judgement over their own, which can be a fatal mistake.

Now, they could be wrong, but ALL of them?

Your both right, 3 bars was a running quarter horse, he also sired horses of many disaplines. I have owned a number of horses that go to 3 bars...

As to a 17 hand horse in the mountains, that is ludicrus, if you ever step off the down hill side you will stick your knee in your chin and its all down hill from there! Sometimes I think folks on the internet live on a different planet, Will told me so!!

Alberta,
The main reason for riding mules is slick rock, and mules that have never been shod and have those tough feet just don't slip like most horses that are shod...As to sure footed, mules are that but so are some horses particularly those that are raised in mountain country..I trust a horse more than a mule, I have been riding both since I was probably 6 years old..

They both have their place...but the bottom line here is not which is better, it should be which particular individual animal is better. I have owned good horses and good mules, I have owned sorry horses and mules...The final count however would be that I have owned more good horses by far than good mules...

Also I take into consideration what disaplines I can do on an animal...I can catch and rope any cow type animal on my horse, Mules can't run for squat..I can cut cattle on my horse, mules don't excell at this, and on and on. I can do a days work on a horse and can't get that done with a mule...A good mule is a good animal to hunt on and thats about it...

The country I was raised in is as rough or rougher than anything Arizona has to offer and I have been horseback and muleback in both, they are very simular...The rest is

Hi Ray -

Well, I like them both too but, based only in my own limited experiences, I would trust a mule's judgement in rough country, whereas I only "sorta" trust a very few horses there.

As to rough country, there is country as rough elsewhere as some parts of Arizona, but the country I am speaking of is rougher than anything I've ever encountered in Alberta, Yukon Territory, Montana, Wyoming, or Idaho. When one starts hunting country like the Grand Canyon or Sycamore Canyon, and numerous others like them, they get into a whole separate world of hurt from something relatively easier like the Tetons. I'm talking a whole world which stands on end and is made of crumbled, rotting granite on top of even more rotten shale and please pardon-the-old-western racist expression (which is not intended in any racist manner), soft-ball sized rumbling, rolling nigger-heads, with sheer cliffs everywhere up and down the sides and unpredictably over every little ridge, and NO (as in ZERO) nice little green patches of dirt at either end where an animal (two-footed or four-footed) can stop and catch its balance or breath. There may be as tough a country somewhere else, but none tougher that I have seen and I have hunted all of those states mentioned plus places like the northern Yukon, Pohakaloa on the Big Island, and so on.

Anyway, I think you are right that the indivdual animal is what a guy needs to judge for hunting use (which was the thread question, I think)....would you use that particular one, or wouldn't you, is the question everyone really needs to answer.

And, of course, one also has to look at rider skills as part of the package. I suspect they use mules on the Grand Canyon trail at least partly because of the lack of skills of the dudes the park wranglers have to take down and bring back up, alive.

Best wishes,

AC

I will say one thing for Brayhaven, he sure rides some really nice looking mules, and they are apparently very well broke...and they are much better bred than the mules we used on that big, rough, rimrock country...

We used mules that came from half breed Jacks, Mamoth Jack/ Mexican burro cross studs, and they exhibit a lot more fire than mules from Mamoth jacks..They produce the toughest of animals, smaller and quicker, but you also have to contend with the Mexican burro side, and that makes them a little rough around the edges to say the least, and the Hennys for some reason were even meaner....Once broke, well as broke as they got, they were the very best using animal for our slick rock, rimrock country but perhaps not big enough for timber country as they could high center on blow down timber..We also used some Mexican horses out of Mexico, about 2 miles to the Rio Grande, and they were tough and never required a shoe..They were not mustangs but exhibited a lot of Spanish Barb is my guess, they were pretty little horses (about 800 lbs.) and as good as anything I ever rode in that rough country. A vet studied them and they had flat oval shaped bones, and could stand more abuse than most horses and could pack more weight. An interesting animal for sure.

I suspect were dealing in two different worlds on this mule thing...but since I mostly rope with my horses in competition its not a question of which one is best but what fits my purpose..I hunt off my rope horses and work cattle off them, and would only use a mule during deer and elk season, so feeding one all year for a couple of weeks use does not fit my program...

Its been an interesting conversation and fun.

Ray I am also a horseman and really do not care to ride a mule very far.
However I have had a few interesting experiances with mules.
The first was probably close to thirty years ago, Bill Roer used to have the "Roer Ropethon" at his place in Peoria Az.
I was there competing and after roping on day a bunch of us went over to Del Hubbards place to do a little practicing.
I spun a few on my good head horse, scored a few, and said that is all that I would rope off of him for the day.
The heelers still wanted some turned for them and asked me if I would rope them through another time, and I said sure if you have another head horse.
Well Del said I don't have another head horse but you can rope off of that brown mule..
I thought what the hell this might be fun, so I saddled him up and by damned if he was not jsut about as good as I have ever ridden.
And I have ridden some of the best.
No he probably would not blow to one like your head horse, but he ran really hard, scored like a shot dog and would drag his ass in the corner.
He even had a great set of whethers and did not need a britchin.
I know that you come down south in the winter, you may know Del , he owns Hubbard trailer sales in Dewey Az.
If you ever get a chance stop in and ask him about Everett Bowmans last racing mule that he used to own.

The other significant experiance is a few years ago I was hunting on the Robinson ranch on Kauai Hawaii with a couple of my friend Allen Robinsons paniolo's for goats up in the Waimea canyon country.

At daybreak we tied three mules to the back of the truck and they trotted behind us from the headquarters down near Waimea up several miles of very steep road until we got to a flat spot on the southside of Waimea canyon about as high as we could go.
Then we saddled up and started climbing from there.
I have ridden some rough country in my life, some damn rough country, but I think that they were wanting to see what the Haole was made of.
I swear Ray I would never dream of taking a horse where they took me..
The ultimate was when we were riding on a ledge that was maybe 5 feet wide so that seems like no big deal, but it was covered with stirrup high grass and big rocks that you could not see.
And the left side was straight up and the right side was straight down for several hundred feet, and I mean STRAIGHT down..
Then we hit a solid wall of grass far higher than my head with stems as big around as your finger, so thick you could not see into at all.
The first fellow did not even hesitate his mule jsut jumped headfirst into that wall of grass, and the second guy followed and then I had no choice but to go ahead.
My mule jumped straight into that wall of grass and landed on the top of a boulder that I am damn sure he could not see.
I looked down and could tell that I was on a rock about 4 feet across and maybe that high completely enclosed with grass, and when I say I could not see through it, I mean not even an inch.
My mule stood there a second and kind of looked around like he was getting his bearings and then bunched up and leaped straight into that wall of freeking grass..
And I am thinking that you jsut a few feet away from here is a drop off that takes my freeking breathe away just looking over..
And he landed on the top of another damn rock.

I at this point just had my fingers wrapped around my saddle horn so tight you could not have chiseled them off.

At least five times we would leap straight into a wall of grass, and land on the top of a boulder no bigger than a breakfast table.
Until finally we emerged onto some dirt and a trail.
Now I know that I would rather ride a horse for most all things, but when a man needs a good mule, he REALLY needs a good mule.

But then I think there are only two kinds of mules, great ones and ones that are not worth shooting.

Breyhaven,


I just bought two mules at Jake Clark's Mule Days in Ralston, WY. One is a 6 year old mare-mule and the other a 7 year old horse-mule. Both appear calm, friendly and reasonably well trained. By that I mean they can turn off both the front and hind ends, side pass, lope with the correct lead and back.

I'm now looking for a new headstall and bit for each. What's your opinion of the Myler Combination bit (04 mouth piece and 6 1/2 inch shanks) ?

If I wanted a "hunting mule" I would want him bred from a very gentle laid back running quarter horse type mare and a Half Mexican/half Mamoth Jack..He would be about 14 hands and thick, he would be pretty firely bred by the half Mexican jack that seems to slip some meaness in them along with the toughness and fire..but tough he would be and you couldn't kill him with an axe, he would just heal up and hair over from a heart shot..When he reached his 15 birthday he would be solid and just right and he would be good until he was 40 years old..I would not recommend this type of Mule to everyone unless your a real sure enough cowboy...If I was just a hunter, I would go out to Southern California or Arizona and buy myself a real gently 20 year old mule that has had a hard job all his life...There are some really good mule trainers out that way..

As to a saddle gun, and no one answered the mans question on that, I would opt for a Savage M-99F in 250-3000 for deer and if elk were on the menu then I would opt for a .308 in the same persuasion..A 3X Leupold scope would top it off, I might even circumsize the barrel to 20 inches, maybe??

SBT,
I would always use a ring snaffle on a mule, if you hurt ones mouth, you will end up in the next state whistling "who'd a thought it"

I have started over 600 colts under saddle and maybe a dozen mules. I have sure ridden a bunch of horses that I wouldn't want to spend a whole day on let alone be stuck on a week long trip with, however, I have yet to ride a mule I would want on the trip either. As with all animals, it is the individual that matters, not the breed. I would wonder what you call a 'good' mule. Do you hold them to the same standard as a horse? In my limited experience with them, the type of person who rides a mule is the type of person who is happy to be a passenger and not the driver. Better hope ya'll are wanting to go the same way.

Remember, if the Indians had had better horses, they wouldn't have lost.

Life is too short to be broke, fool around with ugly women, and ride a mule.

quote:

In my limited experience

Well, there you go.

In my limited experience! with mules I have one now that I wouldn't sell for all of Saeed's billions. Nor any horse alive.

"In my limited experience" was prefaced by saying I've broken over 600 head of horses. How many people do you think have one tenth that level of experience? Do you Will?
I thought the sarcasm would be apparent. Sorry you didn't notice.
I have ridden a good many mules as well, and I did say that it depended on the individual animal, didn't I? However, you can make five good horses in the time it takes to take your chances on making one good mule. And for what is required to make a good trail animal, I believe that mules generally have the ability necessary. That doesn't mean that if you were in a situation where you needed to cover some ground in hurry or do a job that required using an animal without the benefit of time to wait for it to "come around" that you would be better off on a mule. If they were better, all the cowboys would have one. For a person with time who likes to meander and take in the scenery, why not a mule? As long as that mule is older and someone else has already gone through the time and hell of getting it broke. Unless they are short and may not be able to see over those ears. I would also add that mules aren't for the novice. They are smart and will take advantage, which is yet another reason to not stack the deck against yourself.
This is like the dog and cat debate. Is a cat smarter than a dog? In most cases yes, but you own a dog and you only feed a cat.

Calm down, I'm just yanking your chain.

Will,
I noticed on a different thread that you have knee problems when riding. Also noticed your saddle and must agree with another poster that your stirrups are a little too long IMHO. I must say "in my limited experience" that knee pain also comes from the torque applied by the stirrup leathers not hanging right. If I were you I'd get them twisted so that the stirrup always hangs perpendicular to the saddle, or just twist them up and run a broom handle through the stirrups for a week or so. I think this will help your knees a bunch.

I appreciate your suggestions. The stirrups came twisted perpendicularly when I had the saddle built, and I intend to keep them that way!!

The basic problem is my left knee is crap. So I bought the crooked stirrups, and to make matters "worse" I am using them with the leathers long, so long that I can just barely stand in the saddle. I know this is a no-no but my knee hasn't been bothering me, amazingly enough. So I've decided to go with what works, including the crooked stirrups, and not what I'm suppose to do.

When I get up my mule to trot or lope it is a little tough on you know what with long leathers but mostly we are a "Walk & Whoa" operation so in the scope of things it don't matter much. But I'm going to shorten up the stirrups by another hole next time out just to see if it matters. But it is going to make it tougher to get into the saddle.

I have to admit I'm still in the experimental phase! But my expectations are low. As long as I'm around tomorrow to saddle up, I'm pretty much happy, or as happy as I ever get!

Having grown up on a farm where we used horses and mules for work and riding, I'd say get the mule for riding/hunting in rough country. He will cover ground as fast as horse, and much more safely. Plus, if you get caught out in the dark, the mule will NOT walk right off the edge of a cliff with you, he will stop, and you ain't Man enough to make him go on. Spurs, whip, 2x4, he'll stand and balk, or throw you. Then, when you get off and try to lead him, he'll take one or two steps further JUST to let YOU Find Out WHY he stopped. So keep your reins wrapped TIGHT around your hand in the dark, lol. Also, mules have a really Cool little running walk, known to City Folks as a 'Pace', which is very smooth and comfortable, and covers a surprising amount of ground. Whichever you buy I HIGHLY advise you to Blood Test them. No, I don't mean for illegal drugs or STD's, I mean get some fresh blood and have the horse/mule stand or pass close enough to see/smell it, and see how he reacts. Many horses will go totally NUTS at the smell of blood, some mules will, too. It's a Bad Time to find out your mule spooks out of his mind at the smell of blood when you have half an elk to pack out.
As far as guns, Marlin is the ONLY Lever Action to allow in the house or in the hand. I recommend the 1895 45/70, it'll kill anything in North America, plus you can get it as a By God RIFLE, or a short little carbine. Side ejection means you can easily mount a scope. Don't waste your money on a 30/30, get AT LEAST a .35 Remington, which is a dandy brush gun for elk, black bear, and deer. The.444 is pretty good, too, but I HAVE a 45/70 and a .35, so they are the ones I AM Qualified to speak on. Single shots? GET A SHARPS. Or the Ruger Number One. You have a much greater selection of cartridges in the Ruger, Modern ones, anyway, but the Sharps, Remington Rolling Block, and the Browning High Wall are American West rifles. You would seem Out of Place carrying a Glock as a sidearm on an elk hunt in Colorado with a packtrain, etc. Just wouldn't LOOK right. Well, your rifle should have a little Tradition to it, as well. If you get a Marlin, and don't use a scope, get a peep or ghost ring receiver sight, it's UNBELIEVABLE the difference they make. If you like a scope, they make a flip-over mount that bolts into the factory scope mount holes,so you can use the scope, or flip it over to the side and use the irons. I got one here, somewhere, think it's a Weaver.
I know, many of you have shot more deer with a 30-30 Winchester than I've ever seen. I don't care. I've seen several Wincesters that jammed regularly with factory ammo, Brand New Guns as well as used. Never heard of a Marlin doing so. Also, the Winchester shucks the brass out the top. No Thanks. The same for having to bolt scope mounts to the SIDE of the action, too. And any way you slice it, the 30-30 is a Popgun. I've shot a pickup load of whitetails with a .22 Long Rifle,too, don't mean you SHOULD. 30-30 great as a kid's First Rifle. Or an Expendable, a Knockabout, Truck Gun, etc. That's why they sell Used for 250 bucks or so. You need a GUN for elk, bear, etc., not a Plinker. They are available, now, so why limit yourself to a 30-30 when you CAN have More?
Oh, I almost forgot, there IS a Good Winchester, that lever action that John Moses Browning designed, the 1895, I think it is. It's got a fixed magazine, and comes in several calibers, including 30-06 and .405 Winchester. Hard to find/get, but if it's Good Enough for Teddy Roosevelt I reckon the rest of us can Make Do with it just Fine. Hope this helps,
KY Jim

I hate to disagree with Mr. Atkinson as I look to him for advice all the time and find it invaluable.

But...when it comes to hunting in the high-country a "good" mule is worth its weight in gold!

I was raised in a cattle ranching family and am now an equine orthopedic surgeon. I don't ever remember a day in my life with out a horse in it.

I have probably not owned as many mules as Mr. Atkinson but have probably owned as many horses.

And as Mr. A said...if I am working cattle...I will be riding a good horse. Not to say there are not good cow-mules but usually in regards to cowboying...horses can do it best. That is why in the day...the large ranches rode horses NOT mules.

But when it comes to hunting in the Rockies...Mules are king. It is the difference between driving a 2-wheel drive pick-up vs. a 4-wheel drive pick-up that is quadra-track!

Now with that said...a "good" mule is hard to find these days. And if you don't have a good one...you are better off with a mediocre horse.

My good mules are the most loyal creatures on earth! They rival dogs in that category. A not-good mule has no regard for your life.

That brings to life a good point. Mules are NOT horses and they can't be trained like horses. You have to mkae friends with them and earn there respect. You have train them with a combination of horse training skills, dog training skills, and cattle working skills.

Every time I ride one of my mules in the mountains along with someone riding a horse...It reiterates to me how much more suited they are to this kind of work than are horses.

Just like wagons going west on the Oregon Trail. I don't believe a single horse team made it through and through! Many mule teams made it and then of course the gold standard here was the oxen.

But in my book...cattle work = a horse; mountain hunting = a mule. FWIW!!!

i have two 16 1/2 hand walkers that i ride at night threw the woods of north id and if they come to an impass they stop and i grt out a light to find a way around. both were 2yr when i got them and i was a 52yr old cripple. i trained them and have never hade a problem with them. i think 99% of problems are man caused! you have to be boss but the horse has to like you. if you can't do that you will get hurt. i'm not smsrt enought to use mules or proublem horses.

Probably not much difference between a good horse and a good mule, from a safety standpoint. The problem is finding a good horse or mule. And mules and horses are just different.

I think it might be fair just to hope one has a chance to own a good horse or a good mule before they die.

Just curious if any of you experienced mule men had seen the book or video "The Mule Skinners Bible" by Max Harsha out of New Mexico? What do you think of his methods? Thinking of getting a mule for the trails, won't be working any cattle, just hunting and trail riding.

quote:

A mule IS sure footed, so what? so is a good horse,

"A mule IS sure footed, so what? so is a good horse"



Not for the same reason, the mule has flat sides, this feature allows the mule to see where it is stepping, front and rear. I believe the mule is the only animal that has this ability.



F. Guffey

I don't normally post on this board because I don't have horses any more. I used to raise Quarter horses but that's another story.
According to my memory, 3 Bars was a registered thorobred and bred to many Quarter Horse mares to produce Registered Running Quarter Horses, which was the fad at the time and may still be.
My last Quarter Horse mare was King P-234 on both sides and a joy to ride and to be around.
As far as i'm concerned the introduction of thorobred blood was as wrong as 2 left shoes,
It bred the brains out of them! As an example: I had a friend who got into thorobreds and had a mare with a stud colt at her side.
One day I watched this mare fire on this foal because he was trying to eat out of her bucket.
She kicked him so hard that he wound up sliding down the far wall of a 12x15 stall, nearly unconsious. I've never seen that in a Quarter Horse.
This is just an example of my limited observations but the AQHA should have never allowed it, I guess it boils down to corporate greed, at least that's how I read it.
Long live the foundation breeding of the Quarter Horse.
gophershooter, you need to do your home work on this one. In your last post, you said that 3 bars did more to advance the QH breed than any other sire, advance to what?
Quarter Horses were bred for ranch work and excelleled at it. Ask any rancher what they think.

stepchild