He says they have two L20s and one 820 in the shop he is working in now.

He says neat.

They work well for us.

I think the discussion of the superiority of leaded brass vs copper alloys is silly.



Pictured, the lead in leaded brass.

Machinists use leaded brass because they have a machine-ability index of 90 to 100. Period.

Copper is much more difficult to machine and is much more expensive.

I honestly dont care about the problems the manufacturer has in producing his bullet, just how well it performs.

One reason I respected Mike who founded North Fork so much is that he intentionally used a very expensive pure copper, about as pure as you could get, instead of an alloy that was cheaper and much easier to machine.

Why?

Because it worked better on game.

If you can shoot an elephant at 9 paces like I did w a North Fork FN and get 64 inches penetraion with only 0.005 inches of compression in the overall length of the bullet, why on earth would you use anything else?



Aren't they pretty enough?

My sincere, and well meaning advice to monolithic solid bullet makers is this. I have used premium bullets since 1978, when I happily paid $1 apeice for the only bonded core bullet available, the original and still best Bitterroot.

If you want to convince customers that YOUR product is better than a competitors, tell us what you make it out of, and why it is superior.

Then get indipendant laboratory to verify claims of lower chamber pressure for equal velocity.

Then verify superiority of penetration on elephant skulls.

AR subscribers are a sophisticated and knowledgable group of hunters, and we are your customers.

I dont care about pretty.

I care about performance.



Pictured, pure copper FN compared to free machining brass RN on elephant skull.

Andy

Yep those RN will veer and tumble and get all beat up.
That is why they don't make RN monometal solids out of pure copper.
Had to use something stronger like brass ... until the RN was abandoned altogether for the FN.
I think John Buhmiller pioneered the trend of FN solids back in the 1940's.

Well Andy you might park your blind loyalty to NF for a bit and consider REALITY.

First - this is RIP's thread not mine - he receives NO compensation from me for his efforts here - not even free bullets. He buys them just like everyone else.

Second - we've all heard your brass is baaaad parable and seen that micrograin photo MANY times. You still haven't made any factual statements regarding one material or another. Seems at this point you don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Stating machinists use brass cause it's cheap is idiotic. A machinist is told what to do and what to use by his boss the guy who owns the machine and buys the material - that guy in turn is told what to do by the designer of the part.

Regarding what material we use - we use what works BEST and that my friend is NOT nor will it ever be COPPER!! FYI ( SINCE YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ) most commercial alloys of copper are nearly pure and more than pure enough to make something non-critical like a bullet. Saeed makes his from old lightning rods - plenty good enough. As far as the cost of copper is concerned - it's cheap enough if you buy it in bulk just like brass or aluminum or steel or corn on the cob.

I'm glad you're impressed with the performance of the NF on elephant but in REALITY there's nothing unexpected or impressive about that event. Any other bullet would have done the same, mine, GSC, Barnes, etc. If your commentary represents the "Sophistication of AR" we're all in a lot of trouble Bubba.

Relax man ... your buddies at NF will be OK ...

Mac,

Is the answer to the question of Copper vs 'various Brass types' not in the comparison of material strength, by looking at the numbers? In this case, performance of non-deforming solid bullets, we talk about the material's ability to resist deformation, ie its yield strength. But also the material should not be so hard that it becomes brittle and chip when hard and thick bone, such as elephant, is struck.

Mac could you put up such a metalurgical/engineering comparison for us and explain it.

Thanks

Warrior

Geez Macifej, next time try the decaf!

quote:

most commercial alloys of copper are nearly pure and more than pure enough to make something non-critical like a bullet. Saeed makes his from old lightning rods - plenty good enough.

Not really. They blow off the front end even more than a Barnes X.

Materials choice does make a difference. Look at how Speer ruined the Trophy Bonded just by switching from an essentially pure copper to gilding metal.

Or how much better a Kodiak is than a Woodleigh and a North Fork or Bitterroot han a Kodiak.

[quote]I'm glad you're impressed with the performance of the NF on elephant but in REALITY there's nothing unexpected or impressive about that event. Any other bullet would have done the same, mine, GSC, Barnes, etc.[end quote]

Very few bullets will penetrate 64 inches on an elephant skull my friend! (Read Dan McCarthys articles here and in African Hunter).

Do you really think a Barnes RN-FN or Hormady RN-FN will penetrate as far as your bullet? Or even the new Nosler semi FN? I dont think the Barnes would penetrate that far even if it was a Truncated Cone FN. (It consistently did poorly in Dan's tests).

Probably for reason I will mention below.

[quote] we've all heard your brass is baaaad parable and seen that micrograin photo MANY times.[end quote]

I am not against brass bullets, I have bought alot of TCCI and hunted w them over the years and a few A-Square, and thousands (literally) of KTW in various calibers in the late 70's and early 1980's.

RIP,

I cheated with that photo. The deformed TCCI was recovered point forward in the 6.5 kilogram molar of my cows lower jaw. I recon it did pretty well to stay in one piece. Two other TCCI RN were also recovered point forward from skull, they just did not penetrate very far. The only one to turn over was shot through the hip in the secum.

What we have learned on this thread:

Thunderbird Cartridge Company (TCCI)
A-Square
PMP in South Africa
S & H

All use some form of leaded brass, probably very similar to C3600.

Barnes also uses a leaded brass but probably one with alot of zinc in it. While this reduces their penetration in elephant skulls, it does result in lower pressure than most turned brass or copper bullets, at least they always did in my 450 Dakota. Andy they had low pressure without anything fancy-shmancy with the driving bands.

Bridger bullets, which Dan McCarthy was so impressed with, were also brass but one with a high electrical conductivity used in that companies detonators. Dan theorized the large meplat diameter of the Bridgers was the reason they penetrated so well, but I suspect the bullets were also quite a bit harder than other brass bullets as well.

So materials do make a difference.

And not just in brass. The North Forks dont deform. The GSC does (a little).

Andy

"The only one to turn over was shot through the hip in the secum."

Very interesting!
Truly a rough way to do an appendectomy on an elephant, however.
The elephant cecum shot is much more difficolt than a frontal brain shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
I think what is missing compared to some of the other premium solids is adequate field experience to verify the tests conducted on the bullets.

I know of no reason they would not perform well, but the proof is in the pudding.

I volunteer to conduct such tests without pay, I just need my expenses covered.

I tried that already. Didn't work.

quote:

Barnes also uses a leaded brass but probably one with alot of zinc in it. While this reduces their penetration in elephant skulls, it does result in lower pressure than most turned brass or copper bullets, at least they always did in my 450 Dakota. Andy they had low pressure without anything fancy-shmancy with the driving bands.

Last I looked Barnes was using bronze in their banded solids which would make them harder with LESS or no Zinc not more. They may produce lower pressure because they're seriously undersized. Sometimes as much as .002". The deficiencies are obvious.

The material state is what's causing petals to be blown off not the alloy. As Warrior alluded - there is a direct relationship between hardness (UTS for sake of discussion) and resistance to deformation. This FACT runs counter to your observations with the NF elephant recovery. Full hard ETP copper is SOFTER than C360 H02 brass by a margin. Full Hard ETP is HARDER than the copper used by bullet makers. So using logic 101 we see that your .005" compressed NF elephant bullet either missed the elephant entirely, passed through soft tissue only, or was produced from something other than pure copper. I assure you the SIGNIFICANTLY tougher brass bullet would have compressed at least .005" on a frontal head shot at your stated range and typical velocities.

Thanks for the advice - no coffee today ...

quote:

So using logic 101 we see that your .005" compressed NF elephant bullet either missed the elephant entirely, passed through soft tissue only, or was produced from something other than pure copper. I assure you the SIGNIFICANTLY tougher brass bullet would have compressed at least .005" on a frontal head shot at your stated range and typical velocities.

Here are some FACTS to ponder.

Could not possibly miss at this range!



Sure looks like an elephant skull to me!

Andy

Hunting baby elephant again Andy ...??

GSC FNs are "half-hard" copper? (H02)
North Fork FPs are "full-hard" copper? (H04)
S&H are "half-hard" brass? (H02)
The expanding North Fork Cup Points are what hardness of copper?

So this refers to the heat treatment of the alloys?

Machining the H04 copper makes it machine as well as the H02 brass?

H04 copper in the nose cavity of the North Fork soft points gets softened by the heat treatment/annealing of the bonding process that fuses the lead to the copper?

These are just guesses or assumptions collected by grapevine.

Any comments on the metallurgy are appreciated,
especially from sumbuddy who know.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Hunting baby elephant again Andy ...??

16 year old cow with tusked mother who chased me off of termite mound.

How many elephant have you shot?

Why wont you believe FACTS?

A North Fork compresses only 0.005 inch point blank at 2,550 fps on elephant SKULL.

Andy

Sounds like you were overgunned ... hey if you measeured it - must be right.

RIP,

Just saw your post.

Sounds right on except about the machine-ability of hard copper.

Pure copper, gilding metal, and most other copper alloys have a machineability index of only 20.

C3600 brass is 100.

Most of the other leaded brasses are 90.

This picture from the Copper Development Association is informative.



You can tell alot about a materials machineability by its appearance.

The copper and copper alloys we have been talking about produce a long soft chip.

The short chip is brittle.

You can adjust the rake angle of the cutter, cutter speed and rpm of the machine tools to turn the coppers. But it is still a pain.


At least it was in the late 70's and early 1980's when I was involved w AP technology.

I have seen both pistol and rifle bullets turned from copper, very hard copper alloys, brass, bronze, zinc, and even mild steel. High speed steel cutters can be used for all but the hardest copper alloys.

H04 copper still makes a mess out of the cutter compared to the leaded brass.

Leaded brass bullet is actually not an alloy but a composite structure. That is why the chips break into tiny pieces. (And why I dont trust them as much as copper).

Copper and copper alloys are homogenous or single phase (alpha) structures and produce the long soft chips that also gum up the cutter.

I was shooting automobiles, bullet proof vests (both hard and soft), and barricade materials so the grain structure of the metal was important. Probably less so on elephant skulls.

Andy

Look- I machine pure copper bullets all the time with no problems. It does not make a mess of the cutter at least it doesnt of mine. Its easy if you know how. The Secret is in the RPM, feed rates, cutter and MOST IMPORTANTLY the Cutting fluid or Coolant used. I have CNC equipment with Bar Feeders running copper bullets as we speak. Only amateurs get poor results turning copper. I think Macifej and I know how to do it.-Rob

I prefir Speer A-Square Monolithic Solids. For my CZ 458 Lott. They go 2350 FPS.

The machine doesn't care if it's working SS, Aluminum, Brass, Copper, whatever. Brass chips & Copper chips look pretty much the same. I've never seen any crap like this come out of our machines ... ceramic or carbide cutters ... no one's using HSS in the year 2009. I'll try to post some photos of chips when I can.

Hmmm,

I think both Rob's and Macifej's products must be terrible - I havent been able to find a single one to measure. Both hit to point of aim and zip through everything I have shot from washing machines to trees and even PUMPKINS!!! There might have been significant compression on the pumpkins, though I haven't recovered either bullet or pumpkin to be able to check.

In all seriousness, I learn a lot from threads such as this, but honestly - I think I have seen this re-run at least three times already. I have to learn to change channels when the storyline starts to become familiar.

Rob, Jay - keep the bullets coming and I'll keep trees falling and pumpkins exploding - and hopefully, the cape buffalo dropping!

How many S & H bullets have been used on elephant head shots?

What is their compression?

What is their penetration?

PS Photo is from last years Copper Development Association (which includes all the free cutting and leaded brass alloys) reference book.

Andy

quote:

How many S & H bullets have been used on elephant head shots?

No idea - I'm not taking a poll.

The point is - who cares ..?? Elephant head is not exactly a hardened target. If you'd like to set-up a test with some serious controls I'd be happy to supply the bullets. I'm sure you know this has been done several times and each time the end result is the same ...

quote:

No idea - I'm not taking a poll.

Is it more or less than one?

RIP has calibrated his water buffalo test box to my "baby elephant."

Guess this is the only elephant S & H has shot.

Andy

Elephant for bullet testing are scarce in Kentucky.
I am saving up for another trip to Africa.

Is the brass of the S&H inferior in any way for solid bullet production?
I think not.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

quote:

No idea - I'm not taking a poll.

Is it more or less than one?

RIP has calibrated his water buffalo test box to my "baby elephant."

Guess this is the only elephant S & H has shot.

Andy

You never know ... the offer stands Andy ... you pick the venue and design the test .....

Andy- You can buy some of my Copper Cup point bore Riders and shoot some ele in the head and let me know the resulting compression of the bullets assuming you can find them. One thing I can assure you is penetration will be more than adequate. Pressures will be lower and velocities will be higher because its a BORE RIDER. Accuracy is excellent too. Yesterdays run held 0.0001 tolerance for 4 hrs and all bullets weighed the same to 0.0002 gr. None and I'll repeat none of the chips ( as if I actually cared) look anything like the crap in the photo either. So much for that reference huh! Thats the trouble with those that Google and those that DO. These bullets do what they do by design not accident. You may even detect some reduced recoil.
Shameless plug for a very good bullet! BTW they aint cheap!-Rob

quote:

Thats the trouble with those that Google and those that DO.

Rob,

I didnt Google.

Just took it down off my book shelf.

Back in the day we did not have machines that could be programmed to interrupt the cutting and turn a long chip into a short chip.

Amazing consistency on your bullets. Esp since you were on the internet talking to me!

Glad you are using copper. Have you posted any pictures yet? If not I would be glad to help.

Macifej,

Sincere thanks for the offer of donating bullets to a test but RIP has already done it.

After completing my LaGrange stop box test in 2003 - 2005 and testing all of the premium soft points in .458 in water buckets, I concluded that you needed to inter-space water between the boards, and dog-on if RIP didnt do it!

He's the man!

Other than using a 50 gallon drum of Kind and Knox gelatin, I think thats about as close to an elephant skull any of us are going to get.

Dan's (500 grains) and Norberts many tests on multiple cows is even better.

You would have to calibrate the gelatin anyway. I suspect it would calibrate more to the old NATO standard (20% gelatin) than the IWBA std of 10% since the head is a combination of hard and soft material.

RIP,

Glad you are going to Africa again. Let me know when you do!

Andy

Andy- I can run these machines for literally days at a time with only QC checks. Computers are wonderful. What can I say about the chips other than the technical term is "SWARF" CCMDOC has some pics on his thread.-Rob