Is it possible or even a good idea to buy a nice double as an investment? I have put my money into the stock market for years, but would love to have something I could look at, touch, and maybe shoot once in a while.

Any ideas on what to buy and what type of return on investment? Thanks

basicaly the only doubles that really hold there value are british double rifles like holland and holland or westly richards but doubles should be bought because you want one not for investment porposes because like a car as soon as you drive it off the lot off comes 15%


if your looking for a fine double rifle for hunting and as a piece to look at i have a 700 nitro express searcy presidential grade rifle for sale brand new butch was selling them for 50k. if your interested pm me im asking less than this.

Thanks 700, but what about if you bought a good used double. It seems to me that in the 8 yrs I have been attending the SCI show, the prices on the doubles have continued to climb. I looked at a nice W. Evans a few years ago for $8500. Now they seem to be about 12-13k. Are my numbers off, or are they really climbing? I read in Tony Sanchez's Ivory and Elephants that demand is greater than supply. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to own a double......

I recommend cash, stocks, and real estate......

AD

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Originally posted by drd39:
Thanks 700, but what about if you bought a good used double. It seems to me that in the 8 yrs I have been attending the SCI show, the prices on the doubles have continued to climb. I looked at a nice W. Evans a few years ago for $8500. Now they seem to be about 12-13k. Are my numbers off, or are they really climbing? I read in Tony Sanchez's Ivory and Elephants that demand is greater than supply. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to own a double......

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There are better investments but if you know what you are doing you can make a few dollars with Doubles. But that is true for most things isn't it.

If you decide to take a plunge than a few words of advive. Never buy a new rifle, like cars, they depreciate intially. If you are buying a used rifle never buy an inexpensive make. No Merkels, Searcys, Krieghoffs etc. Buy good quality, Brit or German rifles. The better the condition and grade the more they will cost but the more they will apreciate.

The market is strong with, I would guess, a 25-30% increase in value in the last five years. Every time someone buys a cheaper rifle you have a potential customer for a Brit. rifle. The more interest and buyers you have for a finite product the more you will have to pay, or get, for it.

Depends on your definition of "investment". If you are looking for maximum ROI, forget guns. If you want to use and play with a double rifle and then be able to get out of it without losing money, you can probably do it if you know what you are doing. You make money on the buy.

Leaving aside guns of some historical significance the rifle that seems to have appreciated the most is the Pre 64 Model 70 in 375, especially the Super Grade.

Mike

I try to tell that to my wife every time I bring another gun into the house. I haven't lost much money on guns but I haven't made much.

If you are buying to play with it use it and maybe sell it someday and get your money back you should come out even if you buy used at a good price.

As for making money if you buy one at a very low price and can find someone to give you more you well make some money. But making money I find stocks and bonds better.

If you want to invest in guns I would reccomend registered machine guns. I bought 3 M16's and 3 MP5's about ten years ago for around 3500 each. Currently they are going for around 12500-15000 each. Not a bad return.

Yeah, I second full autos as far as investment goes but we're near the end of the curve.
The one rule about all collectibles is condition, condition, condition. Unfortunately, enjoying a perfect condition double rifle on a regular basis can cost you a lot in the long term. If you go down this road, buy a cheapy to shoot and a put the high dollar gun in safe storage.

Quote by 700 Nitro:
"searcy presidential grade rifle for sale brand new butch was selling them for 50k. if your interested pm me im asking less"

Does that answer your question?

Seriously, the key is buying "right" in the first place. I buy guns because I enjoy them. My investments consist of equities and real estate.

I have owned a good number of double rifles and I have made a decent to fantastic profit on every one of them..They have certainly been a great cash return to me over the years, most have doubled in price about every year, but they have slowed down a bit of late, seems to take a couple of years now to double your money on a low end English rifle, and you must know what you are buying...Same with English bolt guns, they also have a nice return..

In many ways its better than the stock market and certainly less risk...Lately I have stayed away from the high end, high return English double guns as they have a limited market and are hard to turn, whereas a nice Army Navy double for instance or a English bolt rifle in big bore will sell in a heartbeat..

The supply is limited and the demand is high so thats a good combination for profit..

However you must know the market and know double rifles and for my part I am in constant contact with those folks that like these type of guns due to my business and I am sure thats been a plus for me.

fla3006,
I'm glad somebody else got the irony in 700 nitro's post. On one hand he is talking about the investment quality and the next he is hawking it for $15K less than current msrp. He has been trying to sell the .700 NE for months!

For me, hobbies and investments are two different things. If I were looking for ways to make money on my hobby, then my hobby would be a lot less fun.

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Originally posted by bwanamrm:
fla3006,
I'm glad somebody else got the irony in 700 nitro's post. On one hand he is talking about the investment quality and the next he is hawking it for $15K less than current msrp. He has been trying to sell the .700 NE for months!

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Read my post. Never invest in a new gun or a Searcy etc if you want to make money on a double. 700 Nitro did both.

In a few years a Searcy will be back to it's original cost, maybe.

i never bought the 700 nitro with the intent of it being a great investment i bought it for fun.

and if my job keeps on the up and up ill just keep the 700 and buy a nice small 577 nitro to back it up.

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Originally posted by Mickey1:

In a few years a Searcy will be back to it's original cost, maybe.

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While I agree that new doubles, including Searcys, are not the most rapidly appreciating firearms investment, several Searcys have been sold for more than they brought new. Remember the Searcy field grade that Drake sold used for $8500? It cost $7K new. Cabelas sold one for $8K that was also $7K new.

In contrast, a good used H&H can be found in the $35K range, but a new one runs $75K. Yikes! It would take 40 years to make up that difference.

500Grains

You miss my point. A new H&H is not any better an investment than a new Merkel etc. A good used H&H at $30,000 will appreciate upwards in the next 5 years and make money for the owner.

You are right in that it won't be worth $75k but that is not what is being paid.

As far as the Searcy selling prices, that would be the exception that proves the rule, wouldn't it. We already discussed the $8500 one and the Searcy owners here stated that you could buy a new one for that price, at that time.

There are better ways to make money, we both agree.

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Originally posted by Mickey1:

As far as the Searcy selling prices, that would be the exception that proves the rule, wouldn't it. We already discussed the $8500 one and the Searcy owners here stated that you could buy a new one for that price, at that time.

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No, he did not state that, and even if he had it would not be accurate.. The field grades topped out at $7K new. Then they were superseded by the PH model at $9500. Clearly the PH model is dragging the price of field grades upwards, but the material point is that anyone who bought a field grade can now sell it for at least $1K more than he paid. It may be an anomoly in the double market beccause you sure cannot do the same with an H&H.

If someone has to justify a double as an investment, then he cannot afford a double. It's only a good investment if the buyer can sell it the same day for more than he paid.

My view is that anyone who has more money "invested" in guns than in equities or income-producing real estate is financially retarded.

500Grains

If a person had taken that same money and bought a used Brit rifle instead of the new Searcy the increase in value would have been much more than the (max?) $1500.

Forrest.

Absolutely agree with you. I feel the same way about people who buy or lease new cars.

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Originally posted by Mickey1:

If a person had taken that same money and bought a used Brit rifle instead of the new Searcy the increase in value would have been much more than the (max?) $1500.

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Even if he bought it from Ray?

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Orginally posted by Ray:

I have owned a good number of double rifles and I have made a decent to fantastic profit on every one of them..They have certainly been a great cash return to me over the years, most have doubled in price about every year...

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So if I buy the Rigby 450/400 pictured below for its asking price of $16K, it will be worth $32K next year and $64K the year after.

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Originally posted by 500grains:


So if I buy the Rigby 450/400 pictured below for its asking price of $16K, it will be worth $32K next year and $64K the year after.


http://www.champlinarms.com/gunphotos/rigby450-400sly645.jpg

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Well, there may be a different market in Southern Idaho.

That looks like a nice rifle. I think it could be had for less, what can't. I would guess that in 5 years you could get 18k + for it. .400 now are bringing what 470's were in the mid to late 90's.

Tell me the truth now. Assuming that it is as nice mechanically as it looks and you could get it for $12k would you choose the Rigby or a new Searcy?

If I wanted the 450/400 chambering, I would choose the Rigby. But when I bought my double, there was no opportunity to buy a best grade top condition sidelock underlever engraged .500 NE for $7K unfortunately. I did think about buying the Jeffery snap action underlever .600 NE that is for sale at Champlins. I figured that if I stopped doing anything fun for 4 years, I could cover the cost of the gun. Another 2 years after that, I would be able to hunt with it. Then I abandoned that plan and bought what I could afford.

I am not 100% sure of this but I think the blokes in Australia that buy that old British bolt action junk seem to be able to move it around all the time and it generally goes up with inflation.

Mike

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Originally posted by 500grains:
If I wanted the 450/400 chambering, I would choose the Rigby. But when I bought my double, there was no opportunity to buy a best grade top condition sidelock underlever engraged .500 NE for $7K unfortunately. I did think about buying the Jeffery snap action underlever .600 NE that is for sale at Champlins. I figured that if I stopped doing anything fun for 4 years, I could cover the cost of the gun. Another 2 years after that, I would be able to hunt with it. Then I abandoned that plan and bought what I could afford.

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That wasn't my question. If you could get the Rigby or a new Searcy for the same price, and you had the money, which would you get?

Mike375

I missed the part where Weatherby owners have a right to call Mausers trashy.

Mickey,

Several years ago I wnet to one of the Big Game Clubs shoots that was held in Sydney. Some of the junk was unreal. I remember one bloke a had a Rigby 7 X 57..excuse me, a 275 Rigby, the barrel was like a straw about 60 foot long and the wood look like a reject from a Remingtons 788 pile. I can't remember what it cost but is was some sort of figure that made me almost call 000 for emergency services.

But one bloke had a nice pair of guns in real good shape. A 500 Nitro double and a 500 Nitro Farquarson. He let me have a couple shots. He was a little disappointed because of my reaction since I had not told him I was on my second 460 Wby and the one with only the Pendleton dekicker and also has a Jap 378.

I never shot any, but there were several of the 400 doubles and it still sticks in my mind just how much smaller those rifles were than the 500. Can easily see why the 400 is such a popular double.

Mike

Mickey

PS

From what I seen in Australia and based on economic grounds I would buy the used British double over the Searcy.

Mike

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Originally posted by Mike375:
Mickey

PS

From what I seen in Australia and based on economic grounds I would buy the used British double over the Searcy.

Mike

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Mike

I agree that some English rifles are not of the best quality or pleasing visually. To my mind a rifle has to be both. But, we are talking value and, as you admit, the price for the Rigby was quite high.

I am sure that most competent gunsmiths can make a rifle as good as the trade rifles of most of the English houses. The fact is though the value will not be there. The name is more important than the quality when we are talking money.

PS

Just kidding on the Weatherby, I have a .340 that I love dearly. Even though it is a bolt action.

Mickey,

No doubt that resale value is about name.

Not only was the price of the 275 Rigby high but the bloke can get his dough back on it.

In fact only a few days ago I was having a discussion with a mate of mine and we both agreed that we envy the shooters who get their thrills and pleasures from such guns.

As you know it does not take much over at Wby land to burn up $6000 or $7000US, even their pre packaged custom shit will do that. But of course the next day it is worth nothing like that old Rigby or some old 375 H&H that came from the swamps of India.

By the way, and you may already know this, buta bloke that posts on NitroX's board as 500Nitro (I think) is an Australian with an original 505 Gibbs. I think that rifle might hold it value slight;y better than a Weatherby or Searcy

Mike

Big Game hunting in Africa is now pretty much an American dominated market. Ask any PH where the majority of his clients come from. With it came, for the fortunate/fanatic, the search for Africa guns. The individuals, or dealers, who bought the doubles hanging around in Europe where the market is now marginal bought them a few years ago for less than half of what they are selling them for now. And when you compare a new European product to any of the old ones, in dollar terms, the rate of exchange (Euro up 30% over the last year) has an impact which would logically drive the dollar price upwards. When the dollar was strong these doubles were a bargain compared to today's prices. Europeans buy express rifles in rimmed calibers frequently for European hunting conditions, but I would guess that the African doubles are sold mostly to Americans these days. Since the demand is America driven, the value of these rifles will probably depend on the growth or decline of Americans who hunt in Africa. Where is that going?

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Originally posted by Mickey1:

That wasn't my question. If you could get the Rigby or a new Searcy for the same price, and you had the money, which would you get?

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That's easy! An antique, fully engraved sidelock underlever 450/400 Rigby, or a new Searcy .500 NE boxlock for exactly the same price? I will take the Searcy. And the reason is simple: (i) sturdy, quality design and materials, (ii) shoots well, (iii) durable, and (iv) more desirable caliber (for me).

500 Grains,

On that same question I would take the Rigby.

But if the question was on bolt actions I would take the new bolt action over the old English bolt action.

Couple of reasons. With the double the money is so much bigger and (at least in Australia) the arse would fall out of the Searcy and just too big a bundle to drop when a change in toys becomes overpowering.

With the bolt action the bundle drop is smaller. Also, with the bolt action I would want to be bedding and free floating and putting scope mounts on etc which would probably knock the value around on my English original bolt action.

The next thing, which I know would only be my perception as opposed to a reality, but to me the Searcy does not seem like a true double. I perceive it as an advance up market version of that stuff Remington is bringing into America.

Mike

500 grains. So, what's the story on the Rigby at Champlins? has it been there long. It certainly looks good, but I am not sure about buying an "old" gun through the mail. Does the stock look like it has some cast (on or off, can't remember which). What does that lever under the trigger guard do?
Peter.

Peter, I think the Rigby is a BPE (black powder gun) which limits its value. The under lever is for opening the action.

Darn, I was beginning to think that I really NEEDED that gun!
Peter.

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Peter, I think the Rigby is a BPE (black powder gun) which limits its value. The under lever is for opening the action.

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The rifle is a BP, with a set of '06 barrels and 28 ga. barrels. All use the same forend. A really interesting rifle and would be real special with a set of 375 Flanged barrels to go with. Maybe even a set of 400 barrels that were nitro proofed.

I think one reason Ray can do so well is that he is in and amongst them constantly and has better opportunity to find rifles at the best used prices. The average joe like me just doesn't have the exposure to run into deals on that type of rifle. If your going to make short term money you gotta be inside the market. I was refering to a longer term investment where you are going to pay closer to market value and then wait for the market to improve.

For investment, what about one of the 416 Rigbys from Winchester Custom Shop at either $3000US or $4600US.

Mike

Mickey1 or 500 grains. If the Rigby is a BP gun, how can it handle 30/06 or 375 Flanged rounds. Aren't these much higher pressures?
Peter.