First, let me give the background as complete and as useful as I can think of at the moment.

Among many other calibers I have a .375 H&H and a .470 NE double. I want to get another rifle and have narrowed it down to either a .416 Rigby or a .458 Lott. I have never fired either and don't see an opportunity to do so in the near future. The rifle is intended for a trip to Africa within one to two years. Elephant is out of the question. Cape Buff is a goal and if I can at all swing it would like to bag a lion once in this lifetime, plus of course plains game.

I've researched the differences on paper. Ammo cost for becoming proficient is about the same, not a factor. The interchangeability of the 458 Lott with the 458 Win is a neutral to me. The magazine capacity of the Rigby vs the Lott gives a very slight edge to the Lott. But the African romance of the Rigby gives it a slight edge as well.ETC. ETC.

Now we come to my question: recoil. My 375 H&H is not a problem to me at all. The few time I have fired the .470 NE I have not found it to be intimidating or uncomfortable at all.

You may ask, why don't you just take the double with you. Good question, but I don't want to take a chance with my ruling safe queen. I intend to make it part of my estate and don't want any more dings,etc. Plus the always present possibility of theft or confiscation.

For those of you who have fired the calibers mentioned, do you have any insights that might prove helpful?

458 lott, and reload

Jeff,
Could you possibly expand on your answer if you have the time?

quote:

Originally posted by Bannor:
...I have a .375 H&H and a .470 NE double.

You already have an ideal combination for 98% of all game in Africa.

Stop looking for a solution to a problem you do not have.

George

Not looking for a solution, looking for a rifle!

I agree with George. Nothing you can buy gives any advantage over what you have already. If you just want another gun for the sake of another gun you can get anything you want.

Go with the Rigby because it is the finest big bore magazine cartridge ever invented.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Bannor:
Jeff,
Could you possibly expand on your answer if you have the time?

Certainly --
Buy whatever rifle you want, in 458 lott, and if you aren't currently a reloader, then you need to reload, as that will afford you something like 4 to 6 times the number of shots at the range for the same dollar.

I am not always brief, but asking for detail tends to bring out a torrent from me.

The 458 lott can be loaded up to intolerable and down to subsonic, and is probably the best commerical bigbore in terms of economics. Economics aside, that title resides with the 470mbogo ... and, I humble submit that the 458 AR is a middle ground between them.

George is entirely correct, with a 375 and a 470, you have no gaps in your battery, merely wants. However, wants can be a strong motivator in gathering toys ..

Should you wish to add a rifle and or caliber to your battery, I suggest to you to purchase one, chambered in 458 lott, and enjoy that caliber to its fullest.

Bannor:

I am not one to argue with Jeff but the .416 Rigby, especially with something like a 350 grain TSX bullet, is way faster and shoots way flatter than a .458 Lott and it does it with a lot less recoil. You can use it to shoot plains game as well as heavy game like buffalo and, because of the increased velocity, it imparts a heck of a lot more shock on the cats then the the Lott. It is as cheap to shoot now as the .458 Lott. Hornaday makes brass and plain old 400 grain Interlocks. Last of all, just take a .458 Lott and .416 Rigby cartridge, put them together and compare them. Even though the Rigby is almost 100 years old, it looks as modern as some of the cartridges that just got here. It was way ahead of it's time and it has no belt. THE RIGBY ROCKS!

Dave

I admit I dont know nothin bout' nothin' when it comes to hunting Lion. But it would seem to me (reading) they are not real heavy & tough like buffalo or elephant. In the case of Lion would seem best to make a good first shot and be in position to get off the fastest follow up if needed. Thats always true, I suppose. Should I say with right size gun. I would fear the speed of a Lion more than the tenacity. That would seem to favor a reasonable light short 375 or 416. There is an african hunting forum on AR, you might want more opinions on the Lion cartridge. I would think 375 might be the ticket. (bolt guns are cheep enough to pack a 416)

Oh yea, and the Rigby functions at a lot less pressure too!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bannor:
......
You may ask, why don't you just take the double with you. Good question, but I don't want to take a chance with my ruling safe queen. I intend to make it part of my estate and don't want any more dings,etc. Plus the always present possibility of theft or confiscation....


Much better to pass on a DR with true African experience than a Safe Queen"

If you insist on not taking the 470, then Jeffeosso is right, go with the 458 Lott.

I admit to a real fondness for the .416 Rigby. Its a wonderfully accurate and easy to shoot cartridge with a great deal of well deserved nostalgia and African History behind it. My experience is that its effects on African game including Lion is a big step up from the .375H&H. I've used one alot and it impressed me. No Big Bore Battery is complete without one. YOU Also NEED TO LEARN TO RELOAD!-Rob

What brand 470 do you have?

I can understand your reluctance to take it to Africa.

But you can get replacement $$ value insurance.

On my last trip my wife and I took 3 doubles [2 were original British from the early 1900's], 2 Drillings, a Blaser Bolt rifle,and a Freedom Arms 475 handgun.

Why have them if you do not take them hunting??

As a direct answer to your question I would go with the 458 Lott.

I would shoot 500 gr bullets at 2200fs.

Of the two you mention, and for the game you will seek, the .416 Rigby would be my choice.

But in point of fact, I would prefer the .416 Remington Magnum over the Rigby.

The Remington version of the .416 provides the same ballistics, but is better for reasons of smaller action size, lighter weight and increased magazine capacity.

Gentlemen, I thank you for all of your constructive input. Maybe GeorgeS and MikelRavy missed the part of my post where I said the 470 isn't going. By way of explanation, that rifle was given to me by my uncle as I was being deployed overseas in the military in the late 60's. The rifle had been given to him by his father, my grandfather. He told me the rifle had been to Africa but we didn't have a chance to have a long discussion about it, and we intended to do that when I got back. While I was gone he died in a freak accident in a lake in Danbury, Ct.

I've always considered it a prized possession and couldn't forgive myself if something happened to it. The only reason I brought the rifle up was for the comparison in recoil in my question. Therefore, you see I don't really have a complete battery, just my 375. (Next one down is a 300 win-mag)

Dave Bush pretty much articulated what I've been thinking, but I've read more than one gun writer say that if they were limited to one rifle it would be the Lott. That's the reason I was looking for further insight. BTW "NE 450 No 2", it's an Evans. Rob, I agree with reloading but due to some circumstances, I haven't done it. But that's for another post. I really appreciate all the input.

Recoil of the .416 Rigby is significantly above the .375 H&H. And of course, the .458 Lott is above the .416 Rigby.

For my money I would take the .416 Rigby because of the ballistics. The .416 has the trajectory of the .375 and hits like the .458.

I think the .416 is the upper limit of recoil that can be used with a "higher" magnification scope.

Bannor,
You sound like a nostalgia kinda guy, if that's the case there is only one choice. Hint, never hunt with a caliber younger than you are. You'll be fine with the recoil.

Dirk

I would go for the Rigby.
True Africa caliber and a great addition to the "estate" I have 2 .375's and the .416 Rem and a .416 Rigby. Love both of the .416's but my son will keep the Rigby. A dream of a threesome on the plains of Afrca would have to be .375 H&H, .416 Rigby anda .470 Nitro. .458 Lott is ok but not in the same fantasy....btw...I also have the .450 Ackley and some day hope to own a .470 Nitro double.

Bannor

An Evans is a very good double.

I have made three trips to Zimbabwe, taking all doubles each time.

I always worry about them. But, that is what they are for.

If I gift a double rifle to someone after I die, and they go to Africa, and DO NOT take with them....

I would haunt them FOREVER.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Bannor
If I gift a double rifle to someone after I die, and they go to Africa, and DO NOT take with them....

I would haunt them FOREVER.

and he MEANS IT TOO!!!!!

Keith

Banner, get the Lott. It is the sme combo I have(375H&H/458Lott)

Keith

My biggest concern is that I'll wind up with insurance money and no rifle. I guess I could pass on the money instead? Nah, doesn't feel quite the same. It's going to be my first trip over there. I've heard/read stories of theft, confiscation etc.

Not practical at all, but, given that it was Hemmingway's "ugly rifle" I've always had a weakness for the 505 Gibbs...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Bannor:

I am not one to argue with Jeff but the .416 Rigby, especially with something like a 350 grain TSX bullet, is way faster and shoots way flatter than a .458 Lott and it does it with a lot less recoil. You can use it to shoot plains game as well as heavy game like buffalo and, because of the increased velocity, it imparts a heck of a lot more shock on the cats then the the Lott. It is as cheap to shoot now as the .458 Lott. Hornaday makes brass and plain old 400 grain Interlocks. Last of all, just take a .458 Lott and .416 Rigby cartridge, put them together and compare them. Even though the Rigby is almost 100 years old, it looks as modern as some of the cartridges that just got here. It was way ahead of it's time and it has no belt. THE RIGBY ROCKS!

Dave

..

Tho the Rigby is a great round .If it is going to stand it will have to stand on facts ,not fantasy ...... The Rigby isn,t faster than the Lott !!!!!The Lott pushes the 350 gr TSX @ 2700 fps .. No problemo ........... The recoil is less than the Rigby because the Rigby needs more powder to do so ......... The 350 gr TSX in .416 is about 2" flatter in trajectory @ 300 yards than the 350 gr .458 TSX ........

However , the big difference is the expanded bullets .......The huge increase in shock trinsmitted equates to faster body slamms of upside down animals .... Plus 1 more round in the mag ........

Two popular grizzly/brownie rifles are the scoped sighted 375 H&H and the Marlin guide gun in 450. The 30-06 will get the job done fine, but on the high power end, while practical, these two are getting it done.

there's no flies on either one of them, both are excellent. I just happen to prefer a bigbore than a medium

gumboot,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I usually am
but I've always considered the recoil from my 470 to be less than that of a 458 win-mag. With my limited knowledge, I've always attributed that to the fact that the 470 case is so much larger, thereby working under much less pressure which translates to less felt recoil. As some say a push rather than a slap. (although I'm sure the weight of the gun influences this, but I don't think that's the sole reason)

Following the same logic, wouldn't the same principle apply to the 416 Rigby, large case, lower pressure, versus the 458 lott, smaller case higher pressure. Have your experiences actually shown that the Lott has less recoil than the Rigby?

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Bannor:

I am not one to argue with Jeff but the .416 Rigby, especially with something like a 350 grain TSX bullet, is way faster and shoots way flatter than a .458 Lott and it does it with a lot less recoil. You can use it to shoot plains game as well as heavy game like buffalo and, because of the increased velocity, it imparts a heck of a lot more shock on the cats then the the Lott. It is as cheap to shoot now as the .458 Lott. Hornaday makes brass and plain old 400 grain Interlocks. Last of all, just take a .458 Lott and .416 Rigby cartridge, put them together and compare them. Even though the Rigby is almost 100 years old, it looks as modern as some of the cartridges that just got here. It was way ahead of it's time and it has no belt. THE RIGBY ROCKS!

Dave

..

Tho the Rigby is a great round .If it is going to stand it will have to stand on facts ,not fantasy ...... The Rigby isn,t faster than the Lott !!!!!The Lott pushes the 350 gr TSX @ 2700 fps .. No problemo ........... The recoil is less than the Rigby because the Rigby needs more powder to do so ......... The 350 gr TSX in .416 is about 2" flatter in trajectory @ 300 yards than the 350 gr .458 TSX ........

However , the big difference is the expanded bullets .......The huge increase in shock trinsmitted equates to faster body slamms of upside down animals .... Plus 1 more round in the mag ........

Gum:

Interesting but not really a fair analysis. To get to that velocity in a .458 you have to shave 30% off the .458s traditional 500 grain bullet weight. If you compare bullets of the same sectional density, you should compare a 300 grain .416 TSX to the 350 grain .458 TSX bullet. Again, the .416 shoots much faster and flatter. Terry Wieland tries to make this argument in his book as well but if you keep the sectional density relatively equal, the .416 always comes out on top. Of course, you are correct that the Lott does have the advantage of a greater bullet diameter.

Dave

Bannor,

The formula for calculating the free recoil energy of a rifle does not depend on chamber pressure.

The formula is as follows:

RE = (½ x (RW/GC)) x (((BW x BMV) + (PW x PGV)) ÷ (RW x 7000))^2

Where:

RE = Free recoil energy in foot-pounds.
RW = Rifle weight in pounds
GC = 32.174 (the gravitational constant for earth in feet per second per second)
BW = Bullet weight in grains
BMV = Muzzle velocity of bullet in feet per second
PW = Powder weight in grains
PGV = 4,700 (a generally – although not universally - accepted constant for powder gas velocity in feet per second)
7000 = Number of grains per pound
^2 means "squared"

So, for a 10 pound .458 Lott rifle firing 500 grain bullets ahead of 87 grains of powder at 2,300 fps, recoil energy would be calculated as follows:

RE = (½ x (10 ÷ 32.174)) x (((500 x 2,300) + (87 x 4,700)) ÷ (10 x 7000))^2
RE = (½ x 0.3108) x ((1,150,000 + 408,900) ÷ 70,000)^2
RE = 0.1554 x (1,558,900 ÷ 70,000)^2
RE = 0.1554 x 22.27^2
RE = 0.1554 x 495.95
RE = 77 ft.-lbs.

On the other hand, for a 10 pound .416 Rigby rifle firing 410 grain bullets ahead of 102 grains of powder at 2,370 fps, recoil energy would be calculated as follows:

RE = (½ x (10 ÷ 32.174)) x (((410 x 2,370) + (102 x 4,700)) ÷ (10 x 7000))^2
RE = (½ x 0.3108) x ((971,700 + 479,400) ÷ 70,000)^2
RE = 0.1554 x (1,451,100 ÷ 70,000)^2
RE = 0.1554 x 20.73^2
RE = 0.1554 x 429.73
RE = 67 ft.-lbs.

Thus, in rifles of equal weight firing standard loads, the .458 Lott produces substantially more free recoil energy than the .416 Rigby.

I should add that free recoil is not necessarily the same as felt recoil. Besides weight of the rifle, which I have held constant for present purposes, felt recoil depends on a variety of other factors, including but not limited to stock design, barrel length and profile.

As for felt recoil in the calibers discussed above, I have found that in firing substantially identical rifles, one in .458 Lott and the other in .416 Rigby, the felt recoil from the Lott is substantially more than that from the Rigby.

416 Rigby or 404 Jeffery's, no wrong choice there!

Rich]
Buff Killer

Mrlexma,
Not to argue, you obviously know more than I do, and after all we came to the same conclusions. But let me understand this, you don't believe that pressure (and/or size of cartridge with "spare room") is a factor in the "type" of felt recoil ie. a "push vs a slap"?

quote:

Originally posted by Bannor:
Mrlexma,
Not to argue, you obviously know more than I do, and after all we came to the same conclusions. But let me understand this, you don't believe that pressure (and/or size of cartridge with "spare room") is a factor in the "type" of felt recoil ie. a "push vs a slap"?

That is a theory that I have heard advanced. I think that John Barsness may have written about it.

But I have never seen any convincing evidence to back it up, and I don't think it's true.

Put another way, I think that if there is any "spare room" effect, it must be so small as to be imperceptible.

More significant is that, in a cartridge case with very much "spare room" inside, it will require much more powder to drive a given bullet out the barrel at a given velocity than a more efficient case will need to do the same thing.

And increases in powder charges do translate into very perceptible increases in felt recoil.

A comparison could be staged by firing substantially identical loads in substantially identical .416 Remington Mag. and .416 Rigby rifles. Based on the "spare room" theory, the Rigby ought to generate less felt recoil than the Rem.

I have rifles in both calibers, but they are not identical. My Rem. is lighter than my Rigby.

It seems to me that, if the "spare room" theory were true, the recoil from my Rigby would be noticeably, maybe even substantially, lighter than the Rem. because of the greater case capacity/lower pressure of the Rigby coupled with the heavier weight of the Rigby-chambered rifle.

But it has always felt to me that the recoil I have experienced in shooting those two rifles with comparable loads is very close. I would have to say that there is no noticeable difference. So, I don't believe that the theory is accurate.

And I don't know more than you do, either.

Bannor and MR

Recoil is highly subjective.

I can say this.

Myself and others that have shot the 500/450, and the 450 No2 side by side with the 470 all feel that the 470 has the sharper/ harder recoil.

I have shot a 458 Bolt rifle and my 450 No2 side by side several times.

Off hand I cannot tell much difference.

Of a bench the 458 seems to have a little sharper recoil.

However, when shooting at game, I do not notice the recoil.

I'm by no means an expert (I don't own a brief case or ever stay at Holiday Inn) but the couple of times I shot a friend's CZ .416 Rigby it was pretty pleasant. My P-H converted to Lott and shooting 500gr bullets @ 2250fps has recoil best described as "stout". It took a bit of practice but it's not bad. I'd second the motion that you try reloading, even if you can afford unlimited factory ammo it's great to be able to work up reduced loads for educational purposes.

I'm Rick's friend with the CZ .416 Rigby. It was loaded with 350 Barnes Xs at 2700 fps. It weighs 11.5 pounds with scope and has a 25.5" barrel

I have shot Rick's Lott and it is stout with 500s. My impression is that it weighs 10 pounds or so with iron sights.

I have a .458 AR and it is more reasonable with 425s at 2400 and worse than the Lott with 500s at 2350 and above. It weighs 10 pounds with a scope and has a 22" barrel.

My old Field Grade Searcy in .470 NE weighs 12 pounds and with 500s at 2250 fps it too is stout.

To get the flexibility allowed by the bolt rifle cartridges and the practice desirable ... you REALLY do have to reload. Becomes a fascinating addition to the experience.

Mike,
The Lott is around 10 1/2 pounds. To me the CZ in .416 recoils less than the .470 Searcy which recoils less than the Lott. Of course we're talking about rifles with stocks made in the Czech Republic, United Kingdom and USA so that may have a bit to do with how each rifle feels.

You need to let me try that AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Bannor:

I am not one to argue with Jeff but the .416 Rigby, especially with something like a 350 grain TSX bullet, is way faster and shoots way flatter than a .458 Lott and it does it with a lot less recoil. You can use it to shoot plains game as well as heavy game like buffalo and, because of the increased velocity, it imparts a heck of a lot more shock on the cats then the the Lott. It is as cheap to shoot now as the .458 Lott. Hornaday makes brass and plain old 400 grain Interlocks. Last of all, just take a .458 Lott and .416 Rigby cartridge, put them together and compare them. Even though the Rigby is almost 100 years old, it looks as modern as some of the cartridges that just got here. It was way ahead of it's time and it has no belt. THE RIGBY ROCKS!

Dave

..

Tho the Rigby is a great round .If it is going to stand it will have to stand on facts ,not fantasy ...... The Rigby isn,t faster than the Lott !!!!!The Lott pushes the 350 gr TSX @ 2700 fps .. No problemo ........... The recoil is less than the Rigby because the Rigby needs more powder to do so ......... The 350 gr TSX in .416 is about 2" flatter in trajectory @ 300 yards than the 350 gr .458 TSX ........

However , the big difference is the expanded bullets .......The huge increase in shock trinsmitted equates to faster body slamms of upside down animals .... Plus 1 more round in the mag ........

Gum:

Interesting but not really a fair analysis. To get to that velocity in a .458 you have to shave 30% off the .458s traditional 500 grain bullet weight. If you compare bullets of the same sectional density, you should compare a 300 grain .416 TSX to the 350 grain .458 TSX bullet. Again, the .416 shoots much faster and flatter. Terry Wieland tries to make this argument in his book as well but if you keep the sectional density relatively equal, the .416 always comes out on top. Of course, you are correct that the Lott does have the advantage of a greater bullet diameter.

Dave

... I,m correct on the whole thing .. Either will probably work but the Lott will hold more ammo , be just as or easier to shoot well, As chamber pressure doesn,t equal recoil ..It will transmit more shock , as much more shock as the 416 does over the 375 , which is quite noticeable .. The bullet will penetrate nearly as deep as the 416 and probably exit . components are similarly priced and the Lott holds another round in the mag ........

.....

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Recoil of the .416 Rigby is significantly above the .375 H&H. And of course, the .458 Lott is above the .416 Rigby.

For my money I would take the .416 Rigby because of the ballistics. The .416 has the trajectory of the .375 and hits like the .458.

I think the .416 is the upper limit of recoil that can be used with a "higher" magnification scope.

.

If 500grains is reading this he is prolly hoppin wanting to reply to this .......

So many people don,t load the Lott right for most hunting and therefore there is a great lack of knowledge about it,s capabilities with the 350 gr bullet ..........All I can say is it is an amazing killer .....And it isn,t any different in the recoil than a 416 Rigby ,Remington or Ruger .Tho it does have the potential to recoil less than the Rigby .... And it shoots nearly as flat ....

Or to put it another way , it shoots almost as flat as a 375, kicks like a 416 and kills like a 470 ,,,,, There now were gettin somewhere ....

I have owned both the Rigby and the Lott in the CZ, both shot exceptionally well, the Lott with heavy bullets definitely "spoke" with more authority. though it did not equal my 500NE .

Get the one that "speaks" to you, for me it was the Rigby, the Lott was sold first.

Playing the ballistic devils advocate however, the best pair is the .375 and the Lott.