I want to try loading the Barnes 600 gr Original bullet in the 458 win mag. Does anyone have any load date and/or results? Powder I would guess H4198 or RL-7. I would like to try with RL-7, but unsure as no data. I'm guessing 49 to 54 grains of RL-7 under this bullet may be ok??? Any ideas? Advice?

Too much bullet, not enough case..........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Too much bullet, not enough case..........

AD

Agreed.

Do you guys think it is too much bullet for a Lott case?

Johnny B

One of the best bullet for the .458 is the African grand slam tungsten bullet. it is shorter and will allow you to put more powder in the case.

cheers,

André

Don't use RL-7 or 4198 with 600 gr.
TOO FAST of powder.Use RE-15 or 19 or
4064 or 4320. In ball use W760..Ed

The 600 gr. bullet is too much bullet for the 458 Win and the 458 Lott IMO...You need a 460 Wby or its ilk for those long bullets that take up all the powder space in the 458 Win. or Lott...

Also, you gain absolutly nothing with a 600 gr. bullet over a 500 in any 45 CAl. as the velocity gain of the 500 gr. will better suit you.

If you want more thump, then go for a 50 caliber of some type like the 505 Gibbs etc. and use a 600 gr. bullet that has the larger cross section of bullet, that is what makes a better killer out of a big bore...

I agree with Ray, the 600 gr. bullet is too much for the Win-Mag as well as the Lott.

From what I can gather, and in my honest estimate, the best .45 case to use with with 600 gr. bullets is the .460 Weatherby. Plenty of boiler room with that one!

Maybe I lack experience and imagination, but I think 500 grs. is plenty of bullet out of any big .450............

AD

don not know about 600 grain in a 458 win mag rifle but a freind of mine shot some 600 grain in 45-70 out of a contender at about 1100 plus fps and the pentration was so outstanding that it defied reason

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Do you guys think it is too much bullet for a Lott case?

Yup. Unless you want reduced velocity loads.

if you're still dead set on loading them the lee manual has data for the 600gr .458 win mag. you can pm me if you want it

If anything maybe this is a application for the .460 Weatherby ?? Here you would mostlikely get your 2300 fps or 2400 fps (the magic numbers)and reduce the chance of the 500 gr bullet driven to fast doing funny things....................

The .458 win is struggling to do the right thing with a 500 gr bullet let alone a 600 gr one.

I think it is probably to much for the .458 lott as well.

I agree with you all on this. Too much bullet for the 458 win. But as bwanajcj said I want to load a 600 gr bullet into the 458. No one here has tried it so I guess I will be the first. I have the lee data, they recommend 2 ball powders, H335, BL-C(2) and H4895. Barnes recommends H4198 as the best powder and also H335, Win748, and IMR3031. They (Barnes)do not recommend RL-7. I want to try this load for kicks. I guess I will be the formost attority on this subject after I do. or I'll trade these bullets with a friend that has the 460Wby and not learn anything mort than I know now. I was hoping that someone had something that they liked with this combination. Barnes states 56 grs of H4198 will produce 2024 f/sec, max load, start load is 51 gr @ 1843 f/sec. I came up in my minds eye with 50 grs. of RL-7, will produce no compaction seating to the cannelure, estimated speed of 1850 f/sec. as my start load. But I feel safer with Barnes published data. I guess I'm on my own here. Wish me luck, and I'll let you know the out come

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I agree with Ray, the 600 gr. bullet is too much for the Win-Mag as well as the Lott.

From what I can gather, and in my honest estimate, the best .45 case to use with with 600 gr. bullets is the .460 Weatherby. Plenty of boiler room with that one!

Maybe I lack experience and imagination, but I think 500 grs. is plenty of bullet out of any big .450............

AD

Agree 100% also with Ray.

JohnnyB,
I have tried it, but abandoned the project early on at the reloading bench when it became abundantly apparant that I could not find a suitable powder and still seat the bullet to the cannalure, and you must do that and crimp in that cannalure in a .458 or the bullets will jump out and jam the rifle...for what its worth.

Here are some of my posts from a year or so ago.....pretty much what everyone said is true.
Unless you want to load the 600 grain bullets for FUN they are too big for the LOTT.

I do keep a couple for show and tell, and to kick the crap out of the occasional unsuspecting victim...


.....I have been working with them for the past month or so. BC and sectional density is unbelievable.

Do not load them with the published data from Steves pages it is hot. 75 grains of IMR 4320 blew the primer on the first one I tried, and the velocity was nowhere near what was stated.
Backed down to 70 grains/1820fps (1820 fps is from memory I don't have my book with me) and from the looks of things around 72gr is about as high as I would go.

It kicked pretty good but I had no trouble firing off eight or so....watch your cheek bone though....

In case I wasn't clear my previous post was for a LOTT not a WM..............................

I would think that RL-7 is way too fast of a powder for 600 gr bullets in the win mag. I tried RL-7 with barnes 450 gr in my 458 Lott, and go sticky extraction. With a 600 gr bullet in the mag, you could go beyond stick extraction

I loaded the Barnes 600 gr bullet in the .458 Win case. I used H4198 powder that Barnes recommends as the best choice. Results are:
52gr. = 1715 ft/sec
53gr. = 1724 ft/sec
54gr. = 1742 ft/sec
55gr. = 1780 ft/sec
56gr. = 1830 ft/sec Max. load
The COL was 3.275 and bullets were crimped into the cannelure. The 52 & 53 gr. charges were not compressed. The others were slightly compressed. The primer on the 56gr was pretty flat indicating max pressure as Barnes stated. Speeds were no were near what Barnes publishes (56gr.= 2024ft/sec). The impact point was about 12" lower than 400gr bullets at 100 yards. The reason I thought RL7 would be acceptable is slower (Ref. Lee Manual)than H4198 and about the same as IMR3031, both published loads by Barnes. And I thought I wold get alittle more speed out of the RL7 with less powder (no or little compaction), crimping into the cannelure. I used WW Super cases, WLRM primers and roll crimp. So thats my results. Like someone said they are nice novalty loads.

Damn, Johnny, we talked about it a bit on this forum and you ran out and tried it. Congrats. How much more capacity would the Lott give you and how much more velocity do you think it may be worth? Curious.

Whitworth...The case capacity of the Lott is 7.225cc, the case capacity of the 458 win mag is 6.045cc. So the Lott has 1.18cc more case capacity. That enough room for 15grs more powder. But I am sure that would produce well over maximum pressure for the H4198 powder as I was at max with 56gr in the 458 win. You may be able to go 5grs more in the Lott and get maybe another 125 - 150 ft/sec. out of a Lott case. This bullet (Barnes 600gr) takes 2.4cc of case volume, seated to the top of the cannalure, leaving 4.83cc of volume for powder without compaction in the Lott. Barnes manual has data for the Lott and this bullet using H335 ball powder at 73grs (4.7cc volume) producing a max load with room to spar (no compaction), speed of 2087ft/sec. In general, I would say that the advantages or worth of the Lott over the 458 win mag is about 150 ft/sec more speed at best and very few compressed loads. Not large benefits but something. BTW the recoil of the max load, 56gr H4198 under 600gr bullet in 458 did not seam bad at all, but I had just shot 3 rds from the 600 OK prior to this. That was a 900gr bullet, 159gr, of IMR7828 going 1910 ft/sec.

I'd have a tough time believing the Lott could achieve much over 2000 fps if that with a 600 gr bullet, unless one used an especially long barrel, or ran high pressures. 1850 from the win mag sounds like a realistic maximum.

Remember that powder burn rates are relative to the cartridge and bullet they are being used in. Powders of similar burning rates will behave differently in different situations, ie what was thought to be the slower powder turns out to be the faster powder.

I've done some experimenting with heavy for caliber bullets in other chamberings, and have concluded there are no magic powders for those applications. The faster powders quickly run into pressure problems, and the slower powders run out of case capacity before you can get pressures up.

For a 600 gr 45, it seems like the 460 G&A is the minimum sized case to get that big bullet going, and it's probably one of the better uses for the 460 Wetherby.

I shot some in my 458 win.

I think 1800 is a high velocity for this combo of bullet and case. I used imr 4198 and 1850 fps blew the primers.

I think it would be cool to take Bison with this combo.

I also shot some in a 45-70 at 1100 fps.

I tried the 600 gr barnes over the RL7 last Thurday. It was sure a beautiful day too. I just thought I would share the results. FYI

49 gr. = 1629 ft/sec
50 gr. = 1638 ft/sec
51 gr. = 1662 ft/sec
52 gr. = 1671 ft/sec
53 gr. = 1715 ft/sec

53 gr. grains gave 100% fill, no compaction and no pressure signs. I would think I am close to a max. load, but I may load the 54 & 55 gr. charges of RL7 to complete the data. So far the H4198 looks like a better choice. Also all my bullets hit in or near the bulleye 4" group.

Interesting JohnnyB. I tried out the 600 grain bullets in a Lott awhile ago just for fun. I did notice that they recoiled more than factory 500 grain loads. Have you shot anything with the 600 grain loads?

The 600 gr. bullet in the Lott is prbably too much of a good thing. I have used the 550 gr. Woodleigh solid on 5 elephant and 1 buffalo. It hits peceptably harder than the 500 gr. IMO. I use H-4895 for 2100-2150 fps out of a 22" barrel.

465H&H

No, I am experimenting and find it challenging to load big bullets into the small 458 win mag. case and get as good of results as you can get. I think I learn more about reloading this way. I have loaded this bullet with 54, 55 & 56 grs. of RL7 and will test this week, maybe tomorrow and report here. Then I’m out of these bullets. I am bullet testing Sunday on bull elk, I wonder if I should, no I want to get this data first. I think I will test the Barnes 350 gr. X bullet in .458 win mag. on an elk.

So when Barnes, in their reloading manuel no.3, state that they with 56 grs of H4198 clocked this 600 grainer at 2050 f/s in a .458WinMag, that is to be considered as a fairy-tale? I always thoght it was wery optimistic.
I read sbove that when JonnyB loaded this recipe, he only clocked it at 1830 f/s.
Quite a difference.

I loaded 3 more rounds with RL7 under the 600 gr. Barnes, WLRM primers and got these reesults.
54gr. = 1733 ft/sec.
55gr. = 1742 ft/sec.
56gr. = 1780 ft/sec.
I did not see any sign of excess pressure. Also I noted today in my log book that I had loaded this bullet under 65gr. of AA2230C that produced clocked 1916 ft/sec. Now I recall blowing some primers with this powder, but I did not find that info., so I would be carfull here, I may want to test this again starting at 60 gr. Anyway you put it, the Barnes manual reports speeds I don't think are possible and even at 1916 ft/sec the KE is only 4892 ft.lbs.well below what you can get with a 450 or 500 gr. bullet (5000 to 5400 ft.lbs.). I clocked 500 gr. Hornady bullets today at 2200 ft/sec and this produces 5375 ftlbs of KE. I shot 450 gr. northforks and got about 5000 ft/lbs, 2222 ft/sec. using the AA2230C powder.

I crimped this bullet into the cannelure and the COL = 3.29". The COL could be 3.39" and fit into my magazine. I contacted Barnes and told them to lower the cannelure 0.100" closer to the base. This will improve this bullets design and make it a viable bullet to use in the 458 winney as I think you can get 2000 ft/sec. with the additional case volume this design change will provide. Pushing this bullet at 2000 ft/sec. will produce 5330 ftlbs of KE and now you have a good cartridge using this bullet.

Not all of the 600 Barnes bullets have cannelures.

I bought two boxes of them. One box was definate round nose design with no cannelure and the other box almost looked like a semi spitzer with a cannelure.

The semi spitzer ones I seated with a 41 caliber flat point bullet seater and it gave the bullets a cool looking flatpoint.

I have some, 60 of each, Barnes 600gr softs and solids. I'd like to use them in my 450 G&A. I'd like a little help with a starting load so i don't waste a bunch of them. I need to save some for charging bull elk and the random black bear.

JohnnyB...You might try AA2460...it works better than AA2230 in my 458American/458 WM...it's slightly slower.

I gained about 50fs over AA2230 using ~5 gr more powder, plus I can get over 10 reloads with it while AA2230 only got 6-7.

AA2460 is slightly slower than BLC-2 and slightly faster than W748.

It also works the same in a 458 American(2") case with the same bullet weights as in the WM.

Have you tried seating the 600gr bullet out farther?

At 3.7" OAL, 0.440" seating depth, 74gr H2O, you actually gain a bit of room compared with a Lott with the same bullet seated at 3.600", 71gr H2O, standard Lott length.

Might be good for first shot single load or for a single shot/double rifle.

I shoot 500-720 gr cast lead bullets in my NEF BC 45-120, throated for the LONG 720 gr Ranger Rick Tyrannosaurus Thumpers 4.5" OAL. Those 720 gr lead bullets are ~1.62" long, very close to the Barnes bullet length.

Seating a few long just for the informaion would be very interesting and informative.

No matter what...You gain a bunch of SD...~0.400 against ~0.300 compared to a 500 gr bullet and at 1.64" long it's like the Energizer Bunny...it keeps going and going and going!!!!

Luck

JohnnyB:

Go the other way. Try a 450 grain TSX

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
don not know about 600 grain in a 458 win mag rifle but a freind of mine shot some 600 grain in 45-70 out of a contender at about 1100 plus fps and the pentration was so outstanding that it defied reason

Hallo jwp475.

-The penetration remark you made above sounds interesting!

Any more info. on this penetration?
-What the target was, inches of penetration, etc. ?!

Chr.

quote:

a freind of mine shot some 600 grain in 45-70 out of a contender at about 1100 plus fps and the pentration was so outstanding that it defied reason

Cause it was going so slow it acted similar to a solid.

Well, I know a man with a 600 NE and 24" bbls. At 900 grns bullet

weight I think the Sec Den is .334 - WOW! He's chrono'ed it at 1700

fps with the historic loads. Many elephant heads have been pierced

with such a load. The SD of a 600 grn .458 bullet is well higher and

at 1800 fps this thing will penetrate quite well with a proper solid

bullet. It will not be a flat shooter, so keep your shots at game short.

Myth: More Sectional Density = Better Penetration

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Myth: More Sectional Density = Better Penetration

Amen ...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

a freind of mine shot some 600 grain in 45-70 out of a contender at about 1100 plus fps and the pentration was so outstanding that it defied reason

Cause it was going so slow it acted similar to a solid.

It was a solid and did indeed act as such