Early on in my shooting experience I became an Elmer Keithite/Jeff Cooperite

Once upon a time I wrote a letter to Elmer Keith, and received a very nice reply.
Luckily I have been to the Salmon Idaho City Museum, and the family Museum there several times.
Also I visited the Keith display at Cabales a few times for several hours.
I am glad that I was able to see and actually handle many of his guns.

It was really great to see most of the Collection at Beinfeld in January!! Met his Son and daughters and wife...all very nice!!
Glad the weather didn't dampen the spirits of the Bidders....on site and on the phone.
I did some bidding on Monday on one of the other collections....mostly Doubles but 3 British bolt guns too....they blew right by me like a freight train and sold for 2X-3X the estimated values in the Catalogs!! I was only close on one....but by the time you added 15-20% Buyers Commission they were all way out of sight!!
They told me there were about 80 on site bidders during the Keith Auction, and about 50 for Monday on other collections....up to 20 phone bidders....lots of money flowing out there!!
Did anyone follow the Keith Westley Richard Drop Locks? Wondering what they went for?

Cheers,

470EDDY, from the Double Rifle forum:

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/Catalog.asp?aid=92818

Some good buys there I thought.

Cheers,

Chris

RockDoc-
Thanks so much....VERY Enlightening to say the least.
The rumored $60-80K for Pistols just AIN'T the case.....where actually that is the price of most of the Doubles of high quality ie WR-Droplocks and H&H SLE's!! So the provenance really meant little vs what you see by Brokers on GI!!...except the Corbett double!!
Even I might have paid $60 for the 577 WR Droplock....given Hemmingway priced similar rifle>>$230K!! Not Bad!!>>>> and all about $15K LESS than Safari-Lawyer was looking at in comparing a WR-DL and H&H SLE...in 500 and 500/465??....NO Provenance!!
The Boswell 500 NE BoxLock was a bit spendy for that configuration??

Cheers,

I thought there were some good buys. I also liked his Holland and Woodward 500/450 and the Greener 450 singles.

Cheers,

Chris

My father was a hunting guide several years at the Lander One Shot Antelope hunt, he also guided elk for a lot of industry folks, gunwriters and hunting celebrities of the day in the 1970s, 80s and early 1990's. Their elk area was near Dubois in the wilderness area.

He thought Elmer Keith was a very nice man, kind of opinionated, rough talking but a nice man.

He said Jack O'Connor wasn't his favorite (that's my Dad being nice).

Roy Rogers was an everyman who was about as tough as woodpecker lips. Nice, funny and just wanted to be a friend. But was physically strong enough and tough enough to fight grizzly bears with one hand tied behind his back. My father can't say enough about Roy, he and Roy arm wrestled and he beat Dad (who was bigger than Roy and 20 years younger every time).

A lot of those folks came through Lander dad met and spoke with him during those hunts. Even Prince Pahlavi was nice to the hunting guides.

My father was one of the original Marlboro Men with Darryl Windfield in the 1970s, and retired as a federal agent.

Great Stories Wyoming!!

I think your Dad must have been a good judge of Character too!!

I was lucky enough to be invited to an early Kleinburger International Hunting Award when I was still in college.

I walked into a big room of gregarious people up above the taxidermy shop and was very surprised to see Roy Rogers and Dale Evans,Jingles, and a couple of current Astronauts.

Mid-evening I walked over to shake hands with Roy Rogers....before I could say hello as I extended my hand, Roy said "HI, I AM ROY ROGERS!" I was so surprised I almost couldn't say my own name....as if it would make any difference....shook hands with Dale Evans too....and later they lead the group in singing "Happy Trails"....never will forget that evening!!

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Corbett's double sold for $230,000. His No. 5 revolver went for $70,000.

Those are hammer prices, the final price is plus 15% so $264,500 and $80,500 respectively.

Unrelated to the Keith items, I was able to pick up what I consider to be an excellent post auction buy today. I thought a few of the engraved shotguns went very cheap. I'm going to try to be at the next auction if I've got any spare cash, maybe Rock Island next month.

....OR 18% bid in person or on the phone with JJ-A and you Pay by Credit Card, or 20% if you bid online through agent!!

Regardless, that's a lot of money in bidders premiums....and it dissuaded me from bidding up some of the second day offerings!!...ie putting them at what I believe to be well OVER market.

Actually some of the Keith H&H SLE's went pretty reasonable....certainly less than you see them offered by various brokers...

HUMMMMMMMM??

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Great Stories Wyoming!!

I think your Dad must have been a good judge of Character too!!

I was lucky enough to be invited to an early Kleinburger International Hunting Award when I was still in college.

I walked into a big room of gregarious people up above the taxidermy shop and was very surprised to see Roy Rogers and Dale Evans,Jingles, and a couple of current Astronauts.

Mid-evening I walked over to shake hands with Roy Rogers....before I could say hello as I extended my hand, Roy said "HI, I AM ROY ROGERS!" I was so surprised I almost couldn't say my own name....as if it would make any difference....shook hands with Dale Evans too....and later they lead the group in singing "Happy Trails"....never will forget that evening!!

Cheers,

Speaking of Roy! I graduated high school in 1993 and about a month before I went to college my parents took us to Disneyland.

We drove down and stopped at the Roy Rogers museum in Victorville and Dad and I went in and toured it.

While we were inside Dusty and Roy came by to do some paperwork. So there we are in the back of the museum and my mother and sister were standing out in front of it talking to Roy and Dusty. Both gents departed the scene before we got out to the front of the museum. We got back in the car and until we got the photos developed I would have never believed it.

Except for the handguns and the Corbett rifle, there was little premium for provenance. Great buys were had on English double rifles & shotguns, also vintage sporting rifles.
Only thing I ever got from Elmer:

I am very much pleased to own my little piece of Keith memorabilia. As most of you know by now, I have the Elmer Keith Shiloh Sharps they built for him about forty years ago. Long Range Express in 45-90 with SN:EK100.

He was a true gentleman in every sense of the word, and always made visitors feel welcome and at home.

Rich

The auction catalogs are really nice for this auction.

quote:

Regardless, that's a lot of money in bidders premiums....and it dissuaded me from bidding up some of the second day offerings!!...ie putting them at what I believe to be well OVER market.

A "market" is whatever a willing buyer and a willing seller are prepared to close on. Your opinion of market value may or may not be more accurate, but at any auction of any size there are ALWAYS items that sell for more or less than the generally accepted value.

I'm always amazed at people who bitch about buyer's premiums. Do they think that all that advertising, catalogs, venue and persons to hold the auction, etc are free?

Seems simple enough to me, set your maximum price, back off the premiums and that's your maximum bid. If someone can't afford to pay for it head up, and must use a credit card, which as you said costs them 3%, then they probably don't need to be bidding anyway.

The fastest auctions in the world are coin auctions, where they often run 150 to 200 lots per hour. They will teach you to set your bids ahead.

Gato,

regardless of your personal opinion, a 20% markup IS a lot of $$$.

Have you purchased any firearms that you would have forked over an additional 20% for?

me either...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Gato,

regardless of your personal opinion, a 20% markup IS a lot of $$$.

Have you purchased any firearms that you would have forked over an additional 20% for?

me either...

Rich

First of all, it's not a "markup" it is a commission and, IMO, most auctioneers earn their money (I see items selling all the time at auction for considerably more than the seller expected), but to answer your question..........

Dozens of them GLADLY (not to mention hundreds if not thousands of coins with 15 to 17% premium or more). Who gives a fuck about the 15-20%, it is the final price that matters. Damn, seems dirt simple to me.

As I mentioned, I just bought one today from Julian's and HAPPILY paid the 15%. It was a real bargain IMO, including the 15%.

Idaho, if the BP is 20%, decide the max you are willing to pay, divide by 1.2 and bid that. To insure discipline and not get caught up in auction fever, bid absentee in advance. Packing, shipping & transfer costs are additional and can be significant, especially from Julia.

Gato,

as my Grandfather once told me: "slice it any way you want. When you put the knife down and stick it on the bread it's still baloney..."

Everyone I know give a __________ (insert your favorite vulgarity) understands an additional 20% markup on product. It puts businesses out of business.

Taking the Corbett rifle from $236,000 to $283,200 IS a lot. Like $47,000. That premium, take another $15K out of your pocket to go with it, you can buy a new Hellcat.

That 20% was the drop in the world economy during 2008. Did your investments recover yet?

A man of your means, maybe peanuts. The rest of us, it's real money.

take care,

Rich

Well, I guess the obvious answer is, if you don't want to pay the buyer's premium, then by all means don't bid. It's not as if the poor bidder is not WELL INFORMED ahead of, and at the sale of the premiums on bids. Any near moron should be able to figure plus 15% and arrive at a final bid. Perhaps you can't, most can.

Do you really think that anyone who bid in the Julian's auction did not figure the BP into their bids? Do you really think the person who bought the Corbett Double was surprised at the premium? In short, there was an informed buyer and seller....that's called business. So what are you complaining about?

I'm reasonably certain that Julian's, Rock Island, Heritage, etc. will survive without your business.

I think you might well be the moron in this discussion. The premium was 20%, assuming you read it, not 15%.

I bought my piece of the Elmer Keith collection with no premium. Thru his grandson.

The firearms sold for market value. Then the extra 20% was added, plus shipping, plus an FFL Holder fee to receive it. There was a good chance, after all of that, that the buyer got hit for his state's sales tax.

That 20% was OVER & ABOVE the market value, plus all the other various and sundry fees/charges.

To me, that seems exorbitant...


What did you buy?

ISS

Premium was 15%, CC fee was 3%, bidding by internet through proxibid was another 3%.

Your first auction ? I don't recall ever a seller paying the auction fee. It aint a mark up.. you sign a bidders contract on the fee. Just like sales tax, at that point. Do you expect the auction house to work for free ?

Listen up.. you have to sign a contract to bid on these things.. of someone is too stupid to read a contract before signing it, it aint the sellers fault.

sort of like tipping, except it is contractually required, if one cant afford afford the actual price, they shouldn't buy

Being emotive about normal course of business when YOU AIN'T GOT A DOG IN THE FIGHT is silly

In my limited experience in auction buying, when the hammer falls, 15% is charred to the seller and also another 15% to the buyer (18% if paid by credit card). Plus is sales tax if shipped to the same state and packing and postage costs.

Julia is one up on RIA in that JJ does not charge a seller's premium if the rifle is expensive and desirable (i.e. brings in lots of attention).

Due to the seller's premium, I never sell at auction (as it is a crap shoot) but I buy often.
Cheers,
Cal

I read somewhere we have the Constitutional right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."

That includes offering an opinion about the well over value cost of the firearms that sold.

The two of you may parse things all you wish, it is still a major added cost that does not add value to said firearms.

NOTE to Jeff: Emotive in terms of an opinion is very much different than using profanity to impress readers. I find it interesting that you felt compelled to comment on my post, but not the use of profanity by another poster. Emotive response?

NOTE to Gordo: IIRC, it was one Mark Twain that said something along the lines that gratuitous profanity is the sign of a feeble intellect or intellectual laziness.

The two of you may comment as you see fit, but it will not change the tremendous markup.

take care,

Rich

With all this bitching about the buyers premium, it makes me wonder if the ones bitching have ever owned, and then subsequently sold a home. It makes me wonder what kind of anguish you went through paying all those EXORBITANT realtors fees. The whole 6-7% commission is just highway frigging robbery!!! (Sarcasm intended) As for the auction, unless you bought one of the items, it wasn't even your money. Find a HOBBY!!!!

Oh, yes. I forgot to add that I have in fact bought items at auction. Several, as a matter of fact. And yes, I did the math on the premium ahead of time and figured out how much I was willing to spend. As a result, I have won some that I wanted, and lost some that I wanted Really bad.

I just skimmed through this thread. No one should complain about a buyer's or a seller's premium as it is known of in advance. If one does not want to pay it, it is a simple solution to make the choice not to buy or sell at auction. I never sell, but do buy. My choice.
Cheers, men.
Cal

quote:

NOTE to Gordo: IIRC, it was one Mark Twain that said something along the lines that gratuitous profanity is the sign of a feeble intellect or intellectual laziness.

Just to try to further your poor education, you don't fucking recall correctly. It wasn't Mark Twain.

But I'll let you think on this Twain quote:
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

I'll also mention Houston's perennially profane Joe Jamail, who has become the richest lawyer in the world by his own efforts.
Read this if you care to expand your narrow view of the uses of language.

Joe Jamail article

I would suggest that is why the saying is prefaced by "IIRC". Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to the actual author.

I note that your frequent use of profanity does not contradict the intent of the response.

Stick with the profanity, it reflects well on your upbringing...

Regards,

Rich

quote:

Stick with the profanity, it reflects well on your upbringing...

Yeah, Rich, my upbringing included being taught to tell the truth, to not believe all that I hear or read, and that my word is my bond, unlike some individuals in here who claim they killed all those record elk with no evidence or that send bullshit PMs threatening fellow AR members because he seems to have a serious inferiority complex and mental issues. I picked up the profanity along the way to deal with people like the latter.

you have to be the ONLY ONE left here who is stupid enough to give credence to that made up PM.

Intelligent people do not "pick up the profanity along the way to deal with people...". That line of reasoning is just an excuse to revert to your PWT upbringing and lack of common sense.

I guess I must have had a better class of people to be around growing up, since I never did acquire your vulgar standard of expressing yourself.

later dimwit...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you have to be the ONLY ONE left here who is stupid enough to give credence to that made up PM.

Intelligent people do not "pick up the profanity along the way to deal with people...". That line of reasoning is just an excuse to revert to your PWT upbringing and lack of common sense.

I guess I must have had a better class of people to be around growing up, since I never did acquire your vulgar standard of expressing yourself.

later dimwit...

Rich

20% on $ 200,000.00+ is a highway robbery but then again, if well to do are willing to pay, what the hell.

There is room for a bit of cussing here and there but Gato, settle down. You are overdoing it.
Here on AR, we all are on same level. No one is better then the others

it's not all his fault; it's how he was raised.

that PWT issue...

Irrespective of the buyers sellers premiums discussion , which are well known ahead of time at these auctions, we still (sometimes barely) live in such a great country where a regular guy might have a chance to own a desirable rifle with provenance. I am glad for the guys that had and spent the money to get these and other great pieces.

But I really enjoyed Big Wonderful Wyoming's story about his Dad with guys like Roy Rodgers. And the Marlboro Man. Thanks.

It just seems sort of sad, that people who would have loved to own a piece of the collection and put one of those fine DR's to used missed out due to the added fees, and to collectors who will not...

I'll just lean back and pick up my normally priced Elmer Keith Shiloh, and fondle it a bit...

Yeah . . . but in auctions you already know there is only going to be one winner. No matter how you slice it the cost is the cost. Whether that is by higher wining bids, or bids with fees, it all is out on the table.

I dont necessarily like it either. But it is just how it is in such "collectibles" markets.

Not unlike the bids on Ferraris. $34 million dollars then the auction payment on top for a whopping $38 million. But it failed to meet what the analysts had thought. Heck that car should have gone to a true car guy lol. Yeah I aint a player - but the nicer 930 Porsches got gathered up in up in the same mess. It is just how it is these days.

A poor man's way to participate in high dollar auctions.
1 Get yourself in an accident.
2 Call Joe.
3 Out bid the other rich guys.
4 Cost, buyers premium, who cares.

Dave

I find this sad...I started this thread to let people know about the Elmer Keith collection coming up for sale and possibly giving some the chance to own what I consider a piece of history. It has now become a pissing contest.
As for the premium argument, if you are not aware of what the final cost will be, you have no business going to an auction, or for that matter buying anything at all. If you buy a new car, do you then piss and moan about having to pay for license plates? I mean, really, I already paid a "fair market value" for the car, why should I have to pay more? Pretty stupid argument, almost as stupid as the argument over the premium.
Fair market value? What BS. Value is only WHATEVER SOMEONE WILL PAY FOR THE ITEM. Fair market value is set by buyers. Take a look at Colt Pythons. One just sold on GB for over 19K. Yes, over $19,000. Many others have been sold in the 4K-9K range, so I guess that now makes the "fair market value" of a Colt Python in the range of 5K? Of course not. It just means that someone wanted that particular gun and was willing to pay whatever to get it.