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One of Us |
I looked at the 375 Ruger data and my conclusion is that it is an honest 100 fps fatser than the 375 HH. Most of the reason for that is the number of powders that it is achieving the velocities with. If we stick with the arguement that cartridge Number 2 is only 100 or even 150 fps faster than cartridge Number 1 so why bother, then we would only have: 1 30 caliber magnum 1 416 caliber cartridge Probably would have never had the 9,3x64 The list would be quite long... Hey if we stuck with the arguement don't need the new thing cause look I can accomplish the same thing with old thing... We wouldn't have much new stuff at all... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Thats right and they were all Newby's at one time. | |||
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Mike ----- You are spot on. If we never looked down the road we would still be using the sling and spear.  Good shooting.phurley | |||
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That you would not have much new stuff is undeniable. That you could not have killed what you have killed with all that new stuff IS debatable. As for me, I'm still stuck on 19th century technology and I have yet to see where it has limited me in any of my hunting. I doubt a single animal has escaped that would not otherwise have do so had I been using "cutting edge" equipment. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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Are you advocating buying things just because they are 'new'? You are an Ad Man's Hero.  | |||
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Mike, I think the issue is whether someone is going in for the marketing hype or for practicality. And I know lots of guys study ballistics and reloading manuals and fret over whether a cartridge generates 100 fps more velocity (e.g., SOME Ackley-improved cartridges) or whether the bullet drops 2 inches less at 300 yards. Maybe the marketing hype will therefore be appealing. No one ever said that the 375 H&H was a perfect design. But since it is ubiquitous, then as a hunting round it is more practical, and rifles chambered in it will tend to have more resale value. However, it is probably the case that most guns in the USA, especially the inexpensive custom jobs (i.e., rebarrel and smear in some glass bedding compound) only go to the shooting range and have little or no chance of going on a real hunt. For that use, no cartridge is really any more practical than any other. | |||
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The weakest argument of all is that the .375 Ruger can achieve 100 fps more than the .375 H&H. The real benefits must rather be found in other useful features such as: 1) It can be built on a shorter and cheaper action. 2) Better case design - no belt. 3) It will be fitted with a better trigger. 4) The rifle will be lighter than the Experess version that is considered too heavy by some. 5) The ammo will cost no more than the .375 H&H 6) The magazine capacity will be no less than the .375 H&H. 7) Ammo and dies will be readily available, etc. Obviously a counter argument can be that all Ruger triggers should be upgraded. I am under correction, but I heard that the magazine capcity is going to be one 1 round less. The ammo will be more expensive and avialability may not be on the same level. These are the main concerns/limitations and that the current 375 H&H users may be reluctant to invest in yet another .375 caliber that does essentially the same. Most PH's in Africa download the .375 H&H in any event for shooting DG at shorter range. PMP load their ammo to 2,428 fps. the proofhouse at SABS pressure tested them 57 000 psi - well below Pmax. Perhaps Ruger have a different vision for the .375 Ruger to be used on bigger game in the USA & Canada at longer ranges as opposed to what the PH's need in Africa. Warrior | |||
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I like choices...lots of them, regardless if they are better or worst than what we have presently. | |||
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If the 375 Ruger can actually get 100 FPS more than a .375 H&H then I suggest that you load it down. The last thing the great 375 needs is more velocity. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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You know the old saw, "If you understand this then you don't have enough information". That is kind of how I feel. The .375 Dakota, if memory serves me correctly, fits in a standard length action. Also, I think it gets more speed that the .375 Ruger. So, if the whole point is a beltless cartridge with more velocity than the H&H and on a standard action, then there has been one for quite awhile. Since just about anybody who hunts in Africa, and a whole lot of people who hunt in Alaska and Canada have 375 H&H rifles, on the Model 70 long action for instance, they have long had the option to ream out to .375 Weatherby, giving them the option of a .375 Improved round which can even use H&H ammo in a pinch. How many owners of .375 H&H rifles did this? Why not more? Maybe nobody really "needs" additional velocity in this round for the hunting they do. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Mike, I'm not going to argue your point at all. It's certainly true. But I do like having and making choices. Who wants to be limited to a Wartburg or a Trabant? With a ten year wait besides? Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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By the way I have no personal preference in this at all... I have had several non mainstream cartridges: 358 Win - why bother the 35 Whelen is better and the action length isn't relevant in a refile that should have some heft to it 8.59 Galaxy - why bother cause 338 Win Mag exists I even funded the development (i.e. paid for the reamer) of the 358x57 - why who knows... I will not get a 375 Ruger...quite frankly I find the 375HH at the top of my recoil scale for any type of non hunting shooting and I like to shoot and practice. I shoot a 376 steyr cause I can shoot 270 grn TSX comfortable from prone or sitting. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Why get a 35 Whelen when a 9.3 x 62 does it 10% better with no feeding work?  The .358 win has always been destined for a Win model 88 or Savage 99. However, I find the .308 win kills deer better. [/QUOTE] | |||
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anything that "nearly" duplicates the 8x57...  the 30-06, a meaningless change from the 8x57 the 308- trival and SLOWER than both above 300-hh -- who cares about 250FPS? 7x57, 7remmag, 264mag, 300 savage, 300H... all "junk" if compared to a "what does 250fps mean" and compared to the 8x57... the 8x57 has taken ALL game on the planet, cleanly and sanely... so who needs the others? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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HUH? should we try "introduced in the m70 featherweight", with the m88 as an ADDON action? 308 kills better? isn't that like saying the 300 HH "kills better" than a 375 HH? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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never seen "The light" with the .308winnie/30-06..especially with a 8x57 mauser laying around.  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I think we should never have had the wsm cartridges.They wrre a flash in the pan.I think they will all disapear .The 270 wsm and 300 wsm will hang on for a while but will loose alot of popularity.I think the old beleted cartridges that have been around for a while will hang on.I do think the 458 win mag is fading away fast.The 416s are way more popular than the 458s are now .They have way more versitlity and kick alot less than the 458s.If elephant hunting were more popular the 458 do have it over the 416s .I think the 416s are fine for buffalo.They are flatter shooting and alot more useful than 458s to the average person.I dont think we will have many more 458 calibers come out besides the 458 lott.I think the 416 Ruger will be more popular than you think.I wanted the 416 Ultra Mag but Remington canned it . | |||
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Okay, so what's the minimum set of cartridges to get the job done? .22 rf .38-55 .45-90 .577/450 These would about suffice for me. I don't think I would have killed even one more animal that I've ever hunted had I had anything more modern than these 19th century cartridges. In my book all the rest are superfluous. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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What was I thinking. Ditch the .38-55. Completely unnecessary. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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My list would move forward about 40 years. By the way list below in my mind represents a capability that didn't exist prior. As an example, the 416 Rigby represnts a material improvement in energy over the 375HH in my mind. The 284 Win because it is the first short action truly flat shooting. Another example would be the 25-06 doesn't make the list becuase anything I can do with a 25-06 can be done with a 30-6 and 150 grn bullets. Also, the 338 Win does not make this because anything I can do with a 338 win, I can do with a 260 grn 375HH 30-06 375HH 416 Rigby 284 Win 223 I think that's it Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I think your list is just fine. I bet we all have one. I'm building a new rifle - a .38-72 Winchester. It will do all that the .45-90 does and maybe more but maybe not. That said, I am extremely doubtful that it will ever kill an animal that I could not kill just as dead as the .45-90. So, I do it for the fun of doing it. In the end, it's all for the fun, NOT because that future kudu or elk might get away lest I "upgrade" the old Sharps. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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The 375 Ruger will be supplied at first by Ruger and Hornady. A lot more support than Dakota gave their offering. I think somemone would have to come out with a short action that duplicated the 30-06 to generate more heat than this cartridge. Obviously anyone with a 375 H&H should stick with it, but someone looking to get a 375 may be interested in something that does the exact same thing in a cheaper and lighter package. I think marketing wise they had to make it just a tit faster. Imagine the scorn if it was 50 fps slower  I think with Hornady involved it will take off pretty well. Of all the new stuff lately theirs seem to be most on target. Now if we could only get a couple more 300 mags introduced | |||
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You make a darn good point there. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Brent Sounds like it would need a good salesman to sell you a 30/378 Wby Mike | |||
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Good practical advice Ray! | |||
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EVERYONE missed the point by feet, not inches! Little kids tire of toys and want new ones. Big kids tire of toys and want new ones. | |||
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Yep, it would. I cannot imagine a cartridge I need or even want less. As time goes by, my cartridges get older and older in origin. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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I think luv2safari has hit the nail on the head! The fun of a new gun is the planning and anticipation of a new toy. I think the silent majority in this case are not trying too hard to justify something new but are looking forward to getting one and having fun with it. I have a couple 375 H&H rifles and love them. So what, I'm still going to buy a new Ruger. Not because it's better but simply because it's something I want. I think too many here suffer from "paralysis by analysis"! By the way I have short mags too and could care less if they disappear 10 years from now.  | |||
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"CARTRIDGES WE WOULD HAVE NEVER HAD......." That includes every cartridge ever invented! All are the result of someone looking for something better, or different, than something before! However, when considering the importance of a new cartridge, one must remember that for every new cartridge that made the line up for any length of time, there were thousands that didn't make it. They didn't make it because of many reasons, but mostly they didn't make it because the niche was already filled with an established round, that was very popular. The other reason was the cartridge niche was not needed in the first place. The 375R cartridge will survive, at least for a time, simply because Ruger is makeing it, and they used their collective heads, and made a pair of well designed rifles to go with the cartridge. The cartridge is nothing special, as it does nothing the old 1912 H&H hasn't been doing very well for 100 yrs. I too will buy one of each of these rifles (the African, and the Alaskan versions) simply because I like the way they built the rifles. But, they could be chambered for 9.3X62, and I would like them even better! So the cartridge/rifle combination is what will give this project longivity, not the cartridge alone. The rifle would make it, regardless of chambering, as long as it was adiquate for hunting big game! ...........Just MO! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Guess my reasons have become public. There is a little boy inside me that likes to come out and play with new toys. Had a .22-250, .25-06, 7STW, and several others before they became factory rounds. Now have (and still have the others) a 6.5WSM and .338WSM. Will have a .395 Ruger! Probably (aww heck, will) have a .375 Ruger. And the thought of the .366, or .423 and the... .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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