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Remington, 45/70 and DUH! Login/Join
 
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 03 March 2005 05:10
Okay...
we ALL know X psi pressure has a lower velocity than the same X in cup, right?

Then what do this line mean, on the remington site for the 45/70 double?


http://www.spartangunworks.com/specs_rc.htm
quote:
‡ NOTE: For Use with SAAMI Compliant Loads Only (28,000 PSI / 28,000 CUP Operating Pressure).


CIP PSI for 45/70 is 31800, and SAAMI Cup is 28 K, for the same number.

in any event, that's remington 405s at 1800+...

KICK ASS


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 06:03Hide Post
Jeff-At those pressures CUP and PSI are about
the same depending on who did the testing,
etc.For SAAMI. CIP different equipment,
calibration, etc.Different group of companies
setting the standards.Ed


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 03 March 2005 06:51Hide Post
Ed,
yep, and 31+ and 28k are "close".. the 31+ is the euro PSI for the 45/70. 28kcup is the old method.

either way, i'll take it
jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 08:31Hide Post
I had typed up a whole reply asking why it was worth it to spend the money on a SxS that cannot be loaded up for petter performance(I.E. Garrett +P loads), then it came to me. Even the real traditional SxS rifles chambered for stuff to take to Africa is not loaded to go as fast as they can, so what difference does it make? Forgive me, because for a moment I envisioned myself as being one with tons of stamina, and an iron shoulder. Even though you cannot shoot rounds that will penetrate tanks with the Rem SxS, I hope the rifle is a decent shooter to be worthy of my hard earned cash.
 
Posts: 986 | Location: Columbia, SC | Registered: 22 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of TC1
posted 03 March 2005 08:53Hide Post
any word on a release date?

Terry


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 09:01Hide Post
Jeff-Gixxer-

And if I had one it would become a 450 NE--
Then the with the 15 ton(31k) loads it would be a poor mans NE.Handle it easy.

Or set up extractor for my baby wildcat.Ed.


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 09:41Hide Post
Does the 450 NE get more MV for the same given chamber pressure(handloaded to get that pressure of course)than the 45-70?
 
Posts: 986 | Location: Columbia, SC | Registered: 22 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Hog Killer
posted 03 March 2005 09:52Hide Post
I think the bullet that could really shine in this rifle, would be the Hornady 350gr RN. The bullet will be light enough to get a high enough velocity to open up pretty well, and the price is not bad either. Or you could go high-tech, and use the North Fork 350gr FP.

With the rifle only weighing 7 1/2 lbs, recoil should be OK.

Hog Killer


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
 
Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 10:10Hide Post
The word from Remington as of three weeks ago is 3rd quarter of this year,probably late summer.
 
Posts: 63 | Registered: 28 December 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 03 March 2005 18:31Hide Post
just spoke with remington...

nframe is right.. 3rd q...


Ed,
You got a 450 #2 reamer.. heh

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 19:54Hide Post
Jeff- No we don't have a 450 #2 reamer.
That would be a good cartridge also.
I used two 450 NE reamers to regrind to my
458HE.

Gixxer- Yes at same pressures, 31k, the 450
NE would be way above a 45-70.Like 500 gr
at 2100 plus fps.Ed.


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 20:33Hide Post
For any Canadians, I'm advised by the local gun shop that this rifle won't be coming to Canada. Apparently Remington can't bring them in because Canada already has a Baikal dealer, and that dealer has decided not to import this rifle. Frowner Mad
 
Posts: 2921 | Location: Canada | Registered: 07 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 03 March 2005 20:56Hide Post
Fisher,
your locacl guy would be right, if this was a "baikal" product anymore.. while it's made in a factory owned by baikal, it's a remington.

800 243 9700 is remingtons number, i think

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 03 March 2005 21:08Hide Post
jeffeosso,

CUP and psi measurements do cross. Also CUP gets fuzzy below ~ 28,000. It also gets fuzzy above ~ 50000. The reasons have to do with the copper coupon used, namely it's exponential (plastic) deformation characterists. This is why LUP is used for lower pressure cartridges.

PSI is a far more accurate and modern scale.


Ed,

31000 psi won't get a 450 NE 3.25" to launch no 500 gr pill at 2100 fps. Just won't happen. The original ballistics for the 450 NE 3.25 ran a 480 bullet at 2150 fps operating at ~ 49,000 psi. The 450 NE No2, a much larger case operates around 38000 to 40000 psi to get 2150
with a 500 gr pill.

A 458 Win mag can get a 480 gr pill to 2160 fps at ~ 62000 psi.

These are all average peak pressures. Individual pressure may be as much at 15% to 20% higher!

Overload the Remington double at your own risk!

ASS_CLOWN
 
Posts: 1673 | Location: MANY DIFFERENT PLACES | Registered: 14 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 03 March 2005 21:52Hide Post
Scotty,
pretend it's YOUR 405...


no te manchas, guey..

yes, scotty, oncce again you have restated the conversation to appear to be part of it... CIP calls the 45/70 31,800 psi.. saami calls it 28k cup....

the gun is made in europe....

which load do you THINK it would be?

which load did remington say it would be built to in a call from me?



jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of tonto
posted 04 March 2005 02:14Hide Post
Jeffe
Any news on there arrival? I saw one of the single shots today. If the doubles are built as nice they will be a very nice gun for the price. Got my FFL watching out for one for me. I am nuts but the 30-06 looks interesting to me. Maybe because I have a 45/70 double now.
Dean
 
Posts: 1057 | Location: adirondacks,NY ,USA | Registered: 30 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 04 March 2005 02:26Hide Post
Dean,
not until late summer.. WOW, that's what they told me 2 years ago!!!

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Hog Killer
posted 04 March 2005 06:15Hide Post
I wonder how much trouble/expence, in sleeveing this thing to, 405Win, 450-400 3", 375H&H Flanged, or 9.3X74R ? With a smaller rim, ought to be able to run up higher chamber pressures safely, moving a 300-400gr bullet at a higher velocity. Than the same weight with the 45-70. This should produce better terminal performance.

May be less expence than buying a Kodiak in 9.3X74R, and it would be hammerless.

Hog Killer


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
 
Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of 470 Mbogo
posted 04 March 2005 07:07Hide Post
Hi Jeff,
You may have to order two of those so I can pick one up. I'm having trouble believing that Remington won't bring them into Canada. That would make a fun hog hunt wouldn't it.
Take care,
Dave
 
Posts: 1247 | Location: Sechelt B.C. | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
posted 04 March 2005 08:03Hide Post
Dave,
wish you were going to make it here next weekend!!

you can get yours in the fall!!
jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 41049 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 04 March 2005 08:15Hide Post
Ac-Where did you find info that NE calibers
were loaded to 49,000 psi.When I developed my
458HE built from 450NE brass I tried 3 inch case,and a 3.25 inch case, as well as final
long length. In 3.25 inch one I got over
2500 fps with DB Ball at peak pressure of
50k.All info on NE calibers in the books,
about factory loadings,
were 30-35k, that I have read about.


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 04 March 2005 21:30Hide Post
Ed,

Most if not all the NE cartridges are/were loaded to 39,000 to 49,000 psi maximum average pressure (probably higher considering Cordite's properties and the accuracy of pressure measuring back around 1900).

Consult CIP and/or A Square and you will get an education as to what the pressure specifications are.

I am not saying that you could handload some of the NE cases to lower pressure for the same muzzle velocity. That can be done for sure with many of the NE cases. What I am saying is that ammunition manufacturers have to pay for that powder, so they will opt to use the fastest powder they can to achieve the required muzzle velocity while remaining below the maximum average and maximum individual pressure(done by statistical analysis of the load aka Standard Deviation of pressure).

A Square in particular is fond of using slow powders to fill the NE case and keep pressures, generally in the mid 30 ksi range. This isn't common though with factory produced ammunition and DEFINITELY NOT the case with the original Cordite loads.

ASS_CLOWN
 
Posts: 1673 | Location: MANY DIFFERENT PLACES | Registered: 14 May 2004Reply With Quote
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posted 05 March 2005 07:54Hide Post
In the 3.25 inch one I did starting load of 105
gr of W760 got about 2200 and cases fell out, and didn't need resizing.And by my formula were about 30-34,000 psi.Long barrel.I have seen many references to NE cases with pressures
of 14 to 17 tons of pressure, thats long tons.
In Book of Rifles, the first 303 cases of the same era as when 450 NE came out, showed only
16 tons.And compared to NE they were considered
high pressure. Everywhere you read about reloading NE cases, they say that they can't be loaded to
40 to 50 k.If you take formula based on bullet thrust, for velocity
and put in the info you will come up to the
velocity I have gotten--

Vel = sq root of
( {Bullet Thrust x bullet travel x 38000} ...divided by bullet wt)...

And my regular formula using powder and bullet wts, with expansion ratio factors, which I have put on here a while ago..Ed.


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 05 March 2005 12:55Hide Post
I would not want to shoot a 7.5 lb. rifle with Nitro Express ballistics, ie. a 480 to 500 grain bullet at 2150fps.
Even if the Remington double is strong enough to take the increase in recoil, I think it would be very uncomfortable to shoot. All the Nitro doubles I have shot weighed over 10 lbs, with some weighing up to 11.75lbs.
There is a difference between the recoil of a 10 poundish rifle and a 11 poundish rifle. In fact my Ruger No1 with a 400 grain bullet at 1800fps seems to kick more than my 450 No2 with 480/500 grain bullets at 2150.
Even if the "steel" on the Rem 45/70 double is strong enough the stock/action bedding might not take the increased recoil.
I may have to get one of these 45/70 doubles my self, but I will keep in 45/70. If the rifle will take the same loads as the Marlin Lever it will kill any NA game for sure. A Garrett or Core Bon factory load, or equivilent handload, will have all the recoil and killing power a fella needs in a 7.5lb rifle IMHO.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 05 March 2005 19:31Hide Post
450--Your right about recoil and I'd like one
but it would be weighted up to handle heavier loads and/or calibers.Nice thing about us
big bore nuts, is we can fix them for what we need.They'd be good for 45-90, 45-120 also.Ed.


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 27742 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Hog Killer
posted 05 March 2005 20:02Hide Post
Ed,

Going to 45-90 or 45-120 would be great, if you wanted to go to black powder. Which could be a lot of fun, ie: BPE type loads.

Hog Killer


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
 
Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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