Big Bore controversy … Steve Edwards and Phil Ossifer presented the closing arguments in the latest edition of Man Magnum, May 2006, as to whether or not a big bore rifle is really needed for dangerous game hunting, such as buffalo and elephant.

Steve shared one of his experiences, way back in 1981, when he followed up on a wounded buffalo (in the foreleg) with a .375 H&H. The bull charged and he shot it in the forehead, but above the brain, and the buffalo never even flinched. Whilst Steve opted for a .458 Win Mag then, he prefers a .458 Lott today. Steve then went on to say that he shot more than 300 buffalo with a .30-06. Many others, such as Bell, Sutherland, Neumann and Paul Grobler killed buffalo bulls with a .303.

What do we need … what is the minimum ‘save’ caliber? And can we add the choice of bullet …. Say a Woodleigh Steel-jacketed bullet or even better a monolithic solid? With present-day ‘semi’ or ‘full’ FN Solids we are even better off as far as ensuring more reliable straight-line penetration. Where do we draw the line in terms of bullet mass or terminal momentum – a 286 grain PMP solid in a .375 H&H or even a 270-gr FN bullet at a modest velocity? This should be seen in the light of what the occasional hunter is using and not the PH who provides the back-up.

If deep straight-line penetration can be achieved with a smaller caliber (9,3/.375 H&H), do we really still need a bigger bore rifle, like in the days when we only had lead-core FMJ-bullets that riveted and turned on occasion? Even in the days of Pondoro Taylor the .375 RN FMJ-bullet had phenomenal penetration.

What role does shot placement play … Of what good is a .458 bullet if it misses the brain of an elephant by a few inches? How good is a caliber if the recoil is such that a quick follow-up shot cannot be delivered? Most people flinch with big bore rifles.

Phil Ossifer says … “ I have no faith in the concept of a big caliber compensating for a miss of several centimeters …†Most PH’s use the .416 Rigby or .458 Lott today, and they argue, that is to stop close charges should it happen. The most contemporary expert in favour of the medium bore has got to be Bruce Bryden, a game ranger of 27 years experience with buffalo and elephant. He claims that a .375 provides more than enough killing power and with an indestructible monolithic solid it is highly effective. (Harry Manners, the ivory hunter, would surely have agreed, had he been alive) Bruce shot plenty elephant under all conditions and stopped many close charges with brain-shots, using his .375 H&H. In fact, Bruce discarded his departmental-issued .458 Win Mag due to the superior penetration of the .375 H&H.

Just a last point in closing, I have seen some bent monolithic bullets in .375 caliber, such as the long 35.0 mm Barnes RN Solids, but never in a .458 caliber. It seems then that we have to take note that when a .375 bullet is driven around and above 2,500 fps, bending becomes a real possibility, and one is better off to load down. The relationship between ‘length’ and ‘diameter’ can be an issue at higher velocities – some hunters push it even up to 2,600 fps. However, I have never seen or heard about the shorter (31.8 mm) steel-jacketed .375/300-gr Woodleigh bullet that bends. High velocity is really not needed with monolithics and that is why the smaller 9.3 x 62 performs so well at 2,250 fps.

Is the 375 H&H still the most versatile African caliber? This is sure to solicit opinions from the real big bore fans.

Chris
PS: Luckily it is the hunter's prerogative as to how he wishes to kill.

this is an easy one..

if you HUNT DG, the 9,3 or 375 should be the client's minimum... and if they shoot it well, anything bigger...

the PH should not consider anything he does not shoot VERY well, and IMHO, the 416 or 404 should be the bottom..


but the PH missed with his 375... "but above the brain" ,... which, if he had missed above the brain with a 600 NE, he would have had the same problem.

jeffe

There is too much thinking, talking, tinkering and not enough practical shooting practice. I would hone shooting skills with midi bore, hasn't "Big Bertha mania" has gone too far.

"Big Bertha mania", as you term it, is rampant...especially on this board. There are many reasons (some of which are rather hilarious) but the common theme running through most of the DG hunting threads is to shoot the most gun you can shoot WELL. I have run the gamut from 375 to 416 to 458 to 470. Finally settled on the 404 Jeff just because it is very effective at the original loading but can be loaded much hotter should I desire to do so. I shoot the original loading fairly well. I won't load over ~2200 fps unless I begin to shoot the Jeff as well as I shoot my 22 LR! Get a copy of Bill Stewart's book...it's a good read and contains plenty of technical info as well as practical advice that comes from his experience.

I shoot all kinds of DGRs, and like anyone, have my favorites. Anything within reason will "KILL" cape Buffalo, and Elephant, but some make the job a little safer! My two favorites whan useing a double rifle are #1 a 450/400NE 3", and #2 a 500NE, but just about anything between will do fine. In a bolt rifle, I have had very good results with the plain old 375 H&H, but my favorite is the 458 LOTT.
I'm one of those who sees no reason for high velocity on dangerous game. Far more important, IMO, is the bullet being used. I like the speed at around the window of 2100-2500 fps, with a good, heavy for caliber, solid, or controled expancion soft point!

The misconception that a large caliber rifle will pole-ax a Cape Buffalo flat, is what Tayler termed as a dangerous elusion. No large caliber rifle, shot from the shoulder, will compinsate for poor shooting!

The only thing that will help you WITHOUT a lot of practice with your big bore DGR, is luck. So, how lucky are you, bwana?

Hog Killer

"Controversy"? Hardly; it's more of a debate.

As a carpenter once told me, 'How big a hammer you need depends on how well you can hit the nail the first time.'

George

Check out http://www.garrettcartridges.com and read about the hunter from Tampa,FL who shot big game in africa with a modified Marlin LA in 45-70 .

2000 ft/lbs in the ear beats 12,500 in the dirt!!

jeffe

All you need is one '06Spr rifle and TBBC loaded ammo. The std. loading is for longer shots, and bullet loaded backward is for those close quarter shots ('enhanced penetration load'). How do you think they came up with those flatnose monolithic solids?

Where is Will?

Ever since he posted that photo of the nude lawyer from Las Vagas posing alongside the crocodile in Africa he has been very quiet....not posting much.
Let me see if I can find it....it's here somewhere.....

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
but the PH missed with his 375... "but above the brain" ,... which, if he had missed above the brain with a 600 NE, he would have had the same problem.

jeffe

I wouldn't know but that hasn't stopped me in the past. Taylor recomended the big woppers not to kill anything deader than dead, but to
turn a charge or "distract" a close charging animal.

As I remember it, something like taking a hit on the head with a pool cue as compared to a baseball bat.
Flinch is it, I can flinch with about anything over the .224 Cals. I belive and hope that in a pinch, when really necessary , and with something nasty to encourage me, I could get off a good shot with my .458.
All I need is a sponser.

We have similar debates on the use of medium bore or small bore on red deer. A small bullet in the right place always beats a big one in the wrong. However when the quality of the shot is marginal there is more chance of a clean kill with the heavier calibre.
My 375 is down loaded with 300 gn woodleigh at 2400 fps which makes it pleasant to shoot and accurate. Therefore easy to practice with.
I have shot with a 505 Gibbs with a 26" barrel which IMHO was too big, heavy and long for any useful field shooting. Fun down the safe environs of the range though.

Regards

Mark

Couple of comments...The colonial government banned the use of calibers smaller than the 9,3 on elephant and buff in the late 1950's after they got tired of sending bodies of sons of the rich and famous home in lead coffins. Prior to the ban, .318 was probably as common a choice for elephant hunting as a .400

Several of the best PH's africa has ever sen never carried anything bigger than a .375. It will stop a charge every time and has good penetration when you are taking a recovery shot at a departing animal - which is a far more common chore than stopping a charge. the .505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro et al are short of penetration (when talking free state heart shots.)

Even Taylor- the ultimate big bore fan reconed you actually needed nothing bigger than a .404 (old balistics) or .450/.400 for dangerous game hunting- and the experience of thousands of government controll officers armed with .425's and .404's would seem to support this.

Phill Shoemaker- an alaskan guide wrote an interesting article in a recent "successful hunter" with suporting stats, showing that hunting sucess on Alaskan big game did not increase as hunters used calibers bigger than .30-06. He cited reduced accuracy with harder recoiling rifles as causing a higher wound/miss rate than the extra horsepower could compensate for. I have a similar view for clients on African Game. Use anything bigger than a .375, it is because you want to - not neeed to. There are specialised circumstances when I feel my 9,3 is a little light and reach for a .404. Note though, That since 1986 I have never shot an animal with anything bigger than my 9,3 (except blackpowder rounds on plainsgame and .41 revolver on ele and buff for demonstration purposes).

2 reasons I prefer big bores-
1st) When hunting buffalo exclusively, and using a .416 and up, only quality expanding bullets can be loaded, and solids can be left at camp/ home.
2) They make bigger holes- period.

Having said this, most hunters/ clients I have been with that used a 9.3 or a .375 H&H had perfect shot placement, and thinking back, less than 5 put in a off centre hole. Compare this to last year's statistics (for me) with only one big bore hunter (.416 Rem) that plugged his animals in the right spot. Three others with big bores (from a .416 to a .600 NE) were very bad shots with their rifles. Part of the problem is that most big bores do not wear scopes, so precice shotplacement is more difficult. So, in summary, I prefer a client with a 9.3 or a .375 (H&H, not .378 Weatherby and the faster cartridges), wearing a good quality variable low power scope. For backup, i would consider any of the .416's with good penetration, and personally use a .450 Rigby (which BTW I have seen penetrate as deeply on a buff bull {shot from behind } with a Rhino expanding 500gr bullet, as a .505 Gibbs with a factory 525gr Woodleigh solid.)

As long as adequate penetration is achieved, bigger bullets make bigger holes. Bigger holes kill more quickly. I know it sounds simple, but any shot delivered to the brain, using a bullet capable, is going to drop anything walking on four legs. For the hunter, the majority of shots will be to the heart/lung, chest/shoulder area. Bigger bullets will always cause a quicker kill, especially if solids are used. My experienec is very limited, one buffalo, but friends & PHs I have talked w/, who have taken many buffalo, some hippo & elephant, all want more gun than the .375h&h for buffalo & certainly hippo & elephant. I like my .404j. Recoil is managable in reasonable weight rifle (10#) w/ 400gr softs/solids @ 2200fps. It will stay my minimum for DG.

quote:

Originally posted by truvelloshooter:
Big Bore controversy … Steve Edwards and Phil Ossifer presented the closing arguments in the latest edition of Man Magnum, May 2006, as to whether or not a big bore rifle is really needed for dangerous game hunting, such as buffalo and elephant.

Steve shared one of his experiences, way back in 1981, when he followed up on a wounded buffalo (in the foreleg) with a .375 H&H. The bull charged and he shot it in the forehead, but above the brain, and the buffalo never even flinched. Whilst Steve opted for a .458 Win Mag then, he prefers a .458 Lott today. Steve then went on to say that he shot more than 300 buffalo with a .30-06. Many others, such as Bell, Sutherland, Neumann and Paul Grobler killed buffalo bulls with a .303.

What do we need … what is the minimum ‘save’ caliber? And can we add the choice of bullet …. Say a Woodleigh Steel-jacketed bullet or even better a monolithic solid? With present-day ‘semi’ or ‘full’ FN Solids we are even better off as far as ensuring more reliable straight-line penetration. Where do we draw the line in terms of bullet mass or terminal momentum – a 286 grain PMP solid in a .375 H&H or even a 270-gr FN bullet at a modest velocity? This should be seen in the light of what the occasional hunter is using and not the PH who provides the back-up.

If deep straight-line penetration can be achieved with a smaller caliber (9,3/.375 H&H), do we really still need a bigger bore rifle, like in the days when we only had lead-core FMJ-bullets that riveted and turned on occasion? Even in the days of Pondoro Taylor the .375 RN FMJ-bullet had phenomenal penetration.

What role does shot placement play … Of what good is a .458 bullet if it misses the brain of an elephant by a few inches? How good is a caliber if the recoil is such that a quick follow-up shot cannot be delivered? Most people flinch with big bore rifles.

Phil Ossifer says … “ I have no faith in the concept of a big caliber compensating for a miss of several centimeters …†Most PH’s use the .416 Rigby or .458 Lott today, and they argue, that is to stop close charges should it happen. The most contemporary expert in favour of the medium bore has got to be Bruce Bryden, a game ranger of 27 years experience with buffalo and elephant. He claims that a .375 provides more than enough killing power and with an indestructible monolithic solid it is highly effective. (Harry Manners, the ivory hunter, would surely have agreed, had he been alive) Bruce shot plenty elephant under all conditions and stopped many close charges with brain-shots, using his .375 H&H. In fact, Bruce discarded his departmental-issued .458 Win Mag due to the superior penetration of the .375 H&H.

Just a last point in closing, I have seen some bent monolithic bullets in .375 caliber, such as the long 35.0 mm Barnes RN Solids, but never in a .458 caliber. It seems then that we have to take note that when a .375 bullet is driven around and above 2,500 fps, bending becomes a real possibility, and one is better off to load down. The relationship between ‘length’ and ‘diameter’ can be an issue at higher velocities – some hunters push it even up to 2,600 fps. However, I have never seen or heard about the shorter (31.8 mm) steel-jacketed .375/300-gr Woodleigh bullet that bends. High velocity is really not needed with monolithics and that is why the smaller 9.3 x 62 performs so well at 2,250 fps.

Is the 375 H&H still the most versatile African caliber? This is sure to solicit opinions from the real big bore fans.

Chris
PS: Luckily it is the hunter's prerogative as to how he wishes to kill.

This is a straw man argument.

If a bullet is placed correctly, a larger bullet does more damage.

But of course no one should hunt with a caliber that he cannot shoot well. However, let's not confuse shot placement with the effect that the bullet has on an animal. It is well documented that if the brain of a charging elephant is missed, nothing below the .458 class is likely to turn the charge, and realistically a .50 or larger is needed to turn the charge.

Dan,

There is no argument that a bigger caliber is more powerful. Most PH's prefer 416 Rigby's and 458 Lotts's as a backup rifle primarily to stop charges sooner or on the premise of the near missed brainshot. However, accurate shotplacement, bullet performance and quickness of follow-up shots are more important than caliber. Given the availability of today's FN solid design, as opposed to what hunters had in the days of Harry Manners (lead-core JMJ's), the 375 H&H has been elevated to a much deadlier weapon for elephant hunting, as deep straight-line penetration is ensured. The argument is that the 375 H&H is the better option for the occasional hunter that is not so experienced, and he has the backup of a PH in any event to bail him out with a bigger bore caliber should he botch up. Hunting on your own, without backup, is a differnt story or to follow elephant up in dense bush.

Harry Manners was an ivory hunter and used his 375 H&H his whole career when the better FN-designs were not available and he shot more than a thousand elephant. He and Wally Johnson began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937, and both used off-the-shelf Winchesters. They only used Kynoch 300-grain solids, and both averred that this rifle/cartridge combination was all that any professional ivory hunter ever needed (even though most of us will disagree). They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target. Harry shot The Monarch of Murrapa (185 and 183 pounds a side). When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s.

Harry Manner did have a few close encounters, but when you try your luck 1000 times or more, sooner or later you find yourself in a tight corner, especially when you become complacent or put yourself in risky situations (same happens to racing drivers).

This is what Pondoro Taylor had to say in - "Big Game and Big Game Rifles" Chapter 8 - page 103: ...

""I know, from using the rifle myself, that the .375 Magnum can safely and satisfactorily be taken against any animal anywhere in Africa. This is not written on the strength of shooting a few beasts with a new weapon and being pleased with the result. I have had three of Holland's .375 Magnums: the first bought secondhand in the early days of my experiments; after using it extensively I discarded it in order to try other weapons; Later, after I had been through the list of it's contemporaries, I bought another, also secondhand, so as to check up on the notes that I had made on the first one's behavior. So satisfied was I that I then discarded it and had Messrs. Holland & Holland build me up a new one - the one that I am using at present. I have fired more .375 Magnum ammunition in my life than any other calibre: over 5,000 rounds at game, including all kinds of African game from elephant downwards."

"I kept no record of the number of elephant and buffalo shot with the first two .375 Magnums; but I distinctly remember the day when this one dropped it's hundredth elephant; and in addition this same one has accounted for somewhere between 400 and 500 buffalo, besides a number of rhino, hippo and lion, and of course, a fair quantity of lesser game. So that both it and I are thoroughly accustomed to each other's little ways. I am not suggesting for a moment that it alone is a suitable weapon for the professional elephant hunter; and naturally I have other much more powerful weapons for use under certain conditions. But what I am suggesting is that personal experience has shown me that it is an eminently safe, sound and intensely-satisfactory weapon to take against any animal anywhere if the sportsman does not want to be bothered with a number of different weapons."

Remember the argument is about the minimum 'safe' caliber ...

Chris

What you are really advocating is that crappy shots should use minimal rifles rather than become at least adequate shots with more adequate rifles.

Then you cite as examples two fellows who don't meet the criteria for inclusion in the group you argue should use minimal rifles.

Wrong forum for this arguement.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
What you are really advocating is that crappy shots should use minimal rifles rather than become at least adequate shots with more adequate rifles.JPK

Not at all. The term "crappy shots" is subjective. What I am actually advocating is that every man should use what he is more proficient with. All elephant hunters start with ZERO experience as far as elephant hunting is concerned, unless you hunted elephants in your previous life. Please follow me ... "occasional hunters" are better off with lower recoil rifles for placing more accurate follow-up shots. An induced flinch can never be to your advantage. And lastly, there is an overiding condition ... the use of the improved FN Solid bullet over the RN full metal jacket bullet with its lead core.

Choices differ - even amongst those with vast experience; Bell prefered headshots and he used - a 6.5 mm, 7 mm and a .318 WR and administered brainshots, and Harry Manners preferred shoulder shots with his .375 H&H when convenient, as it offered the largest area. I quess uncle Harry tried to be carefull and calculated.

Over time dedicated hunters are bound to learn more and improve their skills and so they may just reach the nivarna state of being able to shoot a .585 Nyati as well as a .223 Rem.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
2 reasons I prefer big bores-
1st) When hunting buffalo exclusively, and using a .416 and up, only quality expanding bullets can be loaded, and solids can be left at camp/ home.
2) They make bigger holes- period.

Having said this, most hunters/ clients I have been with that used a 9.3 or a .375 H&H had perfect shot placement, and thinking back, less than 5 put in a off centre hole. Compare this to last year's statistics (for me) with only one big bore hunter (.416 Rem) that plugged his animals in the right spot. Three others with big bores (from a .416 to a .600 NE) were very bad shots with their rifles. Part of the problem is that most big bores do not wear scopes, so precice shotplacement is more difficult. So, in summary, I prefer a client with a 9.3 or a .375 (H&H, not .378 Weatherby and the faster cartridges), wearing a good quality variable low power scope. For backup, i would consider any of the .416's with good penetration, and personally use a .450 Rigby (which BTW I have seen penetrate as deeply on a buff bull {shot from behind } with a Rhino expanding 500gr bullet, as a .505 Gibbs with a factory 525gr Woodleigh solid.)

Interesting post. The 430-gr expanding Rhino bullet in a 416 Rigby is serious medicine for buffalo and is most definately swinging more and more people away from solids.

Interesting also to note the preference that you have for your clients to use 9,3 and .375 H&H.

Chris

quote:

Interesting post. The 430-gr expanding Rhino bullet in a 416 Rigby is serious medicine for buffalo and is most definately swinging more and more people away from solids.

Interesting also to note the preference that you have for your clients to use 9,3 and .375 H&H.

First off, i am a big fan of the Rhino expanding bullet, and especially the heavier than standard variety. On my preference, i mught add that a client with a .416 Remington / .404 that is simmaler scoped than previous mentioned, would propably have the ideal client's weapon. Also, I said that I prefered clients with a scoped 9.3/ .375H&H, but I hunt much more buffalo than elephant. Though they will work perfectly (and have before), something bigger, like the .416 Rem/ .404 work better, especially with body shots. And no, I do not own a .416 Rem, but still believe it is about perfect- low recoil, deep penetration, good frontal area, normal action length (to keep costs down), plenty supply of good .416 bullets.

Karl S and Ganyana,
What would you think if a ammo producer came up with 9,3x62 with 300 grainers, 9,3x64 with 325 grainers, .375 H&H in 350 grainers, .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby with 450 grainers and the mighty .505 Gibbs with 600 grainers?

Husky

Truvelloshooter,

You are mixing up your examples again. Bell, Manner's, et al don't fit your crowd of "occational hunters". Besides, for every legend that you cite who used a light weapon I can cite another two or three who used a much more adequate weapon.

I believe that the "occasional hunter", who is hunting for pleasure should be shooting "the most powerful rifle he can shoot without difficulty" to attempt to quote John Taylor from memory. For some this might end up being the minimal rifle, many more a more adequate weapon. And your Taylor quote is a bit misleading since, while he was a real and ardant admirer of the 375H&H, he was an even greater fan of large bore double rifles for use against dangerous game, especially in the thick.

It would take an "occasional hunter" a couple of lifetimes and enough money to fill a bank vault to shoot enough dangrerous game to become familiar with and comfortable with a heavy recoiling rifle. But only a couple of months of shooting at the range.

The idea that an "occational hunter" needs to use a light rifle to be better able to shoot good follow up shots is just absurd. I'm a real advocate of good follow up shots but a helluva lot stronger advocate of a good first shot from a very adequate rifle which the shooter is familiar with. This leads to two good things, first is that a good follow up shot is not critical and second is that even though its not critical it is more likely to happen since the shooter is familiar with his rifle.

The prescription for the "occasional hunter" then is not to arm himself with a minimally capable weapon but to arm himself with a much more than minimally capable weapon - but get to the range.

There is no difference between a PH and a client that should require one to use a heavier rifle or a lighter rifle except for familiarity. As is occasionally reported by Ganyana, of Zim Parks, in African Hunter, there are plenty of PH canidates just as unfamiliar and inexperienced with larger rifles, ie, crappy shots, just as there are clients - and these are Zim PH canidates, likely the most qualified canidates in Africa. The solution for all is, again, to spend some time at the range.

Why this simple solution escapes so many PH's, clients, most especially gunwriters...is a mystery.

The creation of some false controversy, and the underlying arguement here, is just ridiculas. You and your cohorts ought to be encouraging clients, potential clients, PH's and potential PH's to get to the range so they can shoot well with plenty of gun - much more than merely adequate.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by truvelloshooter:


Remember the argument is about the minimum 'safe' caliber ...

What does "safe" mean? To me, safe means that I have more than a 50-50 chance of turning a charging elephant at 4 yards with a shot to the face even though I miss the brain (which is highly likely in such a situation). We know from Zim Parks pretty good records that anything up through .416 is highly unlikely to turn such a charge, and the .458's and .470's are about 50-50, while .50 cal "usually" turns such a charge. So for me the minimum safe caliber is .50 or above.

But what caliber is safe for broadside shots at cape buff at 75 yards? Probably 7.62 x 51mm NATO.

Thee is NO correct answer to your question as to the minimum "save" caliber, since no two different individual big game animals (or any other size animal) behave the same when shot with any gun! In addition, nothing that can be fired from the shoulder, short of perhaps a 57mm recolless rifle, can GUARANTEE a stop on every animal out there!!

That is the correct answer!

Choose any DG caliber from any of the classes I-IV and learn to shoot it well (which takes time in the higher classes) and you will do well. Try to shoot anything with the gun you bought yesterday and you are asking for trouble.

Dan,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your definition of "safe". But that is your personal definition, which I must respect. And so other hunters will also have their own definitions. It is interesting to learn what other people think and do and that is why we have a forum.

However, I regard your definition as an over-kill. That is a personal thing that the hunter must make out for himself. Stopping charges do require the real big bores. My definition does not go that far because I have PH-backup. In my books most novice elephant hunters are better off with a .375 H&H, with a specialized bullet designed for the very purpose of elephant hunting, such as a FN Solid. The 375 H&H offers better penetration than some of the big bores with a whole lot less recoil. And I am sure most PH's will echo this view - like some of them have already done so on this forum.

Practice is very important to become familiar with one's rifle, especially if the recoil level borders above one's recoil threshold, which is different for each person. The range provide a safe place to become accustomed to one's rifle but can never replace or hone the skill of hunting.

Also I do not know many people that has a goal to shoot more than 10 elephant at today's prices. Ivory hunters of yore did not pay the way we do and hence they could shoot as much as they could fit in - that is real experience.

In closing it is not all in the caliber, but more so in the bullet. If a .375/300-gr FN solid bullet is placed correctly, it will yield sterling performance. There are also countless examples of botched-up shots with big bores that were not effective, most likely from pulled shots as recoil-shy hunters close their eyes when they pull the trigger.

Enough said.
Chris

In support of 500 Grains comments please find below a previous posting of mine regarding the question of an adequate stopper.



I read in African Hunter that an analysis of performance of various calibers on stopping charges was recently completed. The statistics (I think from just South Africa during the last few to several years) showed 22 charges had been documented to have started from under 30 meters. (It was interesting to note that for charges starting from over 30 meters all were successfully stopped by all of the calibers used.) For the 22 close range charges studied, 11 involved use of a "375 class" caliber. None of these charges were successfully stopped with death or injury resulting to the hunter. Eight charges involved use of a "470 class" caliber, with only five of these charges successfully stopped. Successful being defined as the hunter emerging "intact" from the incident. This still leaves 3 hunters who were injuried. Only for the "500 and 577 class" calibers were all of the charges stopped (3 for 3). I suppose that you can argue that given a larger population of charges that the 500 or 577 might eventually also fail to stop a charge, but even a cursory examination of these data suggest the 500 and 577 are better at stopping charges than the smaller calibers, even those within the 470 class.



I am sure that all of the hunters injuried in the above scenarios would have said that they were well practiced and capable of delivering a killing shot from any angle, position, situation, etc. The fact that none of the 375s stopped a close range charge and all of the 500s did is pretty convincing to me.

Minimum "Save" is the maximum caliber you can shoot with complete ability and confidence. For me that is a 416 Rigby. I can also handle a 458 WM but prefer the 416 over a 458 WM in any circumstance. If I was capable of effectively utilizing a Lott I probably would, but since I can't I will stick with the Rigby.
No need for me, THE CLIENT to have anything else. Especially since I CAN shoot the Rigby. Pity, I will never make the PH mark.

quote:

To me, safe means that I have more than a 50-50 chance of turning a charging elephant at 4 yards with a shot to the face even though I miss the brain (which is highly likely in such a situation).

Dan,

Please Dan, I don't want to see you getting killed by practising this feat often enough. At 4 yards you are well down the road to face some real trouble. If you shoot it at 4 yards during a charge and his inertia makes him fall on you (12 000 lb) you may never be able to tell the story. Even with a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeff chances are that you would come horribly short.

Perhaps we should talk about minimum 'safe' distances as well, and then combine them with a minimum 'safe' calibers to get a more balanced definition of 'safe'.

Chris

quote:

Perhaps we should talk about minimum 'safe' distances as well, and then combine them with a minimum 'safe' calibers to get a more balanced definition of 'safe'.

Hi Tru,

Per my posting above it appears that over 30 meters for the "start" of the charge (I guess that means when the hunter first sees the charging animal it appears that "any" caliber seems to work just fine with all having 100% "stopping success". However, at charging distances under 30 meters, it seems to be all about caliber, with only the 500-class calibers having 100% success.

Wow! I sure am glad there is no big bore controversy!

.

quote:

How is this deduced ?

Very simply. Sort of like the definition a "successful" landing of a plane. Did the hunter get to walk away from the incident or not.

The report I mentioned is not an esoteric-based argument, but rather one based on observation. 375 did not stop ANY close range charges and the 500s and above stopped ALL of them.

"I read in African Hunter that an analysis of performance of various calibers on stopping charges was recently completed. The statistics (I think from just South Africa during the last few to several years) showed 22 charges had been documented to have started from under 30 meters. (It was interesting to note that for charges starting from over 30 meters all were successfully stopped by all of the calibers used.) For the 22 close range charges studied, 11 involved use of a "375 class" caliber. None of these charges were successfully stopped with death or injury resulting to the hunter. Eight charges involved use of a "470 class" caliber, with only five of these charges successfully stopped. Successful being defined as the hunter emerging "intact" from the incident. This still leaves 3 hunters who were injuried. Only for the "500 and 577 class" calibers were all of the charges stopped (3 for 3). I suppose that you can argue that given a larger population of charges that the 500 or 577 might eventually also fail to stop a charge, but even a cursory examination of these data suggest the 500 and 577 are better at stopping charges than the smaller calibers, even those within the 470 class."

I have some real problems with the observations listed above or rather I should say in the interpretation of what they mean. First of all the sample sizes are extremely small to make any definative conclusions. For instatce based on the laws probability the odds of the first three charges where a 450 caliber rifle was used say that there is approxamately a 20% chance that a stop would have occured in all of the first three charges simply based on random chance.

Secondly the numbers are too clean for my taste. No stops for the 375s and 100% for the 500s. So are we saying that a 375 can never stop a charge from 20 yds? I have seen two elepphant charges one from 20 yds and another from around 9 yds. Both were stopped. The first by a 450/400 and the second by a 375. Did a miracle happen? I don't think so. Another occured while I was in camp and the frist sight of the cow was at less than 20 yds. It was stopped by a 460 Weatherby. Also I read within the last year of an elephant that charged the ph who was armed with a 505 Gibbs. Two shots to the head didn't turn or stop the elephant. The elephant knocked the ph down but I don't remember if or how badly he ws injured. It seem he ran his gun dry.

Zim NP used 450 caliber and larger rifles to shoot cow elephants that charged at the beginning of culls. To my knowledge none failed and cow charges were very common and in fact they tried to get the cows to charge to eliminate them as soon as possible.

Alf you are right that amall caliber rifles (308 FN-Fals) were used to shoot most of the elephants during culls in Zim but not the initial adult cows. The FNs were use kill the half grown and calves milling in confusion. If there was only a 50/50 chance of the 458s and 470s not stopping the charges I really doubt if they would have been the prefered calibers.

465H&H

.

15lb 8br with a charge of 12 or 14 drams of BP pushing 3oz. projectile of hardened metal.
PS. I would start with 10 drams and work up from there.

All,
It seems from all that has been said in this thread we are a passionate crowd...
But, it breaks down to this..In a Charge more is better..
For all other situations shoot what you can shoot the best for African Big Game..
And Hope that your PH is all he can be with the wind..
AK
.
AK