i know that the 458 win. mag. can be shot in a 458 lott. i see that CZ550 american safari magnum comes in both . Why? is it because if you were interested in only the 458 win. mag. it would shoot better in the non lott version ?

Although I am not a real "accuracy is everything person", I would think that the bullet jump from the shorter case of the 458 Win Mag would affect the accuracy when shot in a Lott chamber. Don't own a Lott, so don't know for sure, just a thought. Also depending on how much you shoot it could lead to some build up in the chamber that would not allow the Lott to be chambered without serious cleaning. It may just be me, but I don't shoot 44 Specials in my 44 Magnums and don't shoot 38 Specials in my 357 Magnums. If I want to shoot a gun in a certain caliber, then I get a gun in that caliber.

Two things, imho:

1. At one time Lott ammunition was not common place in African shops, whereas the standard WM could be found almost anywhere. In a pinch, should customs "lose" your Lott ammunition, you could make do with the 458 WM.

2. You would be shooting Dangerous Game. At under 50yds the accuracy would not be an issue.

Just from idle curiousity, I shot a couple rounds of 458 WM in my first Lott. It shot well under MOE* at 50 yds.

Rich

*MOE: Minute of Elephant

The better analogy would be shooting .22 shorts in a .22 long rifle chamber. Eventually the chamber will start to erode in front of the shorter cartridge's mouth, causing possible extraction problems.

The ability to shoot .458 WM ammunition in a Lott chamber should be looked upon as a field expedient, not something which should be done routinely. Loading Lott ammunition to .458 WM levels of performance would produce the same results, without the concomitant possible damage.

I can't say that I have ever heard of similar problems arising from shooting .38 Special ammunition in a .357 Magnum caliber revolver, however.

CZ550 magazine is really long for Win Mag, cartridges slop around quite a bit. I would rather get the Lott and hand load to the velocity wanted. The Lott has a much shorter throat than the WM. Take a good look at the SAAMI chamber drawings, especially WM throat diameter and length, min spec is 10 thou larger than bullet diameter and throat is LONG.

I used to put a new cannelure on a 458 woodleigh and crimp the bullet out .25 inches in my .458 win mag Ruger No1. With RL-15 you can duplicate the Lott in a Ruger .458 single shot. Works great!
BTW I can't imagine the number of .458 mag rnds you would have to shoot in a Lott chamber, or Ackley or Watts to erode the chamber. Thousands? Not a issue! Old wives tale.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
i know that the 458 win. mag. can be shot in a 458 lott. i see that CZ550 american safari magnum comes in both . Why? is it because if you were interested in only the 458 win. mag. it would shoot better in the non lott version ?

I own a CZ550 in .458WM and the magnum length action really means that the WM can be loaded to Lott length (using a Lee factory crimp die) for Lott velocities. With factory .458 ammo it cloverleafs 3 shots at 50 meters and with the Lott loaded length it shoots nearly as well (the extra recoil is probably the reason I can't match it.)
I'm not really a fan of the Lott as the .458WM can and will do anything asked of it. With top loads the Lott has an extra 10% capacity which equates to an extra 4% velocity.. nothing startling there - plus I just plain like the WM.
When people rechamber a CZ .458 into a Lott it really does baffle me... coz they had a Lott in the first place..

Just my opinion though...

Russ.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I used to put a new cannelure on a 458 woodleigh and crimp the bullet out .25 inches in my .458 win mag Ruger No1. With RL-15 you can duplicate the Lott in a Ruger .458 single shot. Works great!
BTW I can't imagine the number of .458 mag rnds you would have to shoot in a Lott chamber, or Ackley or Watts to erode the chamber. Thousands? Not a issue! Old wives tale.-Rob

yep - its an old wives tail

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
i know that the 458 win. mag. can be shot in a 458 lott. i see that CZ550 american safari magnum comes in both . Why? is it because if you were interested in only the 458 win. mag. it would shoot better in the non lott version ?

The reason is based on the perceived lack of performance of the 458WM when it first appeared.
This is based on actual fact, the ammo at the time of it's debut didn't perform very well, any number of theories have been bandied about, powder clumping, powder spillage during manufacture and others abound. Jack Lott is perported as having a case/bullet fail on a cape buffalo, apparently it didn't penetrate to the vitals. Anyway, he developed the 458 Lott to outperform the 458WM, which he achieved, it delivers higher velocities with slightly less pressure.
I have had both, I kept the Lott and re-barreled the WM to 416 Rigby, I also had another that is being converted to 404 Jeffrey.
I just didn't find the performance of the WM worthwhile, I couldn't break 2100fps with a 500gr Woodleigh, but the Lott would get over 2300fps.
Also, long throats do not cause inaccuracy, it is the design of the throat, it's taper has the biggest influence, straight sided throats are less accurate than tapered ones, but neither cause terrible accuracy. There are far too many other variables that influence accuracy, besides long or short throats.
Cheers.

416Rigby Hunter beat me to it. With today's powders the WM is very capable and reliable. That said, my left hand M70 Classic wears a Lott chambered barrel.

Jack Lott is perported as having a case/bullet fail on a cape buffalo, apparently it didn't penetrate to the vitals..

[/QUOTE]

Nope, that's not what happened.
Lott waited too long to take the shot and the buff moved and he gut shot it - that's why he got tossed. Wally Johnson was the PH and was armed with Lott's .375 and repeated shots didn't drop the now enraged buffalo.
Lott originally never blamed the .458, only his poor shooting and only when he started spruiking his own round did the story slowly change..
Lott also stated that all he ever wanted was 2150fps with the Lott cartridge, something the .458WM will do easily..

As stated I'm not a fan of the Lott but I've got nothing against it either. It's just that with top loads the Lott and the WM do nearly exactly the same thing. The Lott gets 2300fps (approx) and the WM gets 2200fps.
If I needed more than a WM I'd personally go for something like the Ackley, Weatherby, etc..

Once again just my opinion... except the Lott story - that actually happened!

Melvin is 100% correct in that Jack made numerous claims in articles he both wrote and edited, that the 458 Win was a wonderful round. He admitted to gut shooting the buff that hammered him and went on to say that the 458 worked as intended and that the fault was all his.
Twenty years later, after his 458 Lott started gaining attention, he changed his story for a feature in Succssful Hunter and blamed the 458 for the event. That is the story some of the modern gun journalists like to quote.
Jack also stated numeroud times that the only reason he developed the Lott case was so that he could reliably get 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet with the powders then available. He said that history had proven that 2150 fps was all that was required and was all he wanted with the Lott.

I have just read the above writing by 458Win (Phil Shoemaker). I endorse it as true and correct, as I know it to be.
Just wish that I could have written first and had 458Win endorse my writing.
Sincerely,

22 years before Lott's cartridge, Jim Watts was the first to blow out the .375 H&H to .45 caliber. He did this in 1949. Lott was well known and he gets the credit for Watts' invention. While I own Lott's .500 Watson double rifle, the SOB made part of his reputation on plagiarizing what Jim did.
Cal

I've been quite happy with my M98 in 458WM (the 450NE equivilant with Woodleigh 458WM 480grn bullets) at 2150fps.
HOWEVER, if I was to use a large actioned Brno or CZ the I would use the LOTT with 550grn bullets for 2150fps. Wait! I already have that also..

Some resonantly recovered 458WM 480grn Woodleighd;

If you chamber your own 458 and do not use the bonehead factory chamber, 2150 with a 500 grain slug is easily done.

450ak - the saami 458 winmag has a long throat

All the years Olin and Winchester have been silent on what excatly caused the powder caking in the 458 Win Mag that plaqued them in the 60's and on.

Any ideas of people with actual experience of this going back all the years. Various versions go around and Olin never disclosed the true facts.

Pieter

i own a 458 lott and frequently shoot winmag in it for testing and plinking, and you have to celan the chamber like shooting 22short in a long or lr.

Ive shot a lot of .458 win.s in the Lott with no ill effects...bullet jump IMO based on a lot of my rifles that have long magazines and throats is a fallacy, I never lost any accuracy in any of them....never eroded a throat..

A 500 gr bullet at 2000 FPS will kill anything quite well IMO..2150 FPS should be better, but it would be hard to PROVE, shooting game, but I like the idea of being able to load a 500 gr. bullet to near 2400 FPS if Im amind to..

I would prefer the 458 Lott to a std. .458, because I can load it DOWN, better than I can load a .458 Win. UP, and I like the idea of being able to shoot factory 458 in it, as most PH have some 458 Win ammo stuck in a box somewhere in camp for emergency needs

If I had a 458. Win in a nice rifle that I liked that would suit me fine, but if I was shopping for a big bore 45 I'd opt for the 458 Lott for a number of reasons.

How popular is the 458 Win in the USA when most big game can bes shot with a 338 Win Mag. Was the 458 Win not primarily meant for those that wanted to come to Africa for buffalo and elephant instead of using a British Double that was beginning to fade in the mid-fifties?

Would love to get some opinions on this.

Pieter

Most .458s sold in North America are interesting range toys for gun enthusiasts dreaming of Africa. Some will take their interesting toy hunting locally for fun, or to get a bit experience with it before their trip, if and when it happens. There's probably 1000 elephant guns sold for every elephant hunt sold. A better percentage will make it for buffalo, but for the most part its just guys having a bit of fun, because they can.

quote:

Most .458s sold in North America are interesting range toys

I expected so....

This brings up another question - is the 338 Win Mag more popular than the 375 H&H in the US?

Pieter

What's the best off-the-shelf factory .458WM available new these days? I can't seem to find any I like more than the Winchester Model 70, and regret selling mine, even though it went to a good home!

And I was shooting it on Saturday Ben.

But the doubles is more better

Glad to hear it, mate! Lovely as it is, I hear you on the doubles!

quote:

Originally posted by Pieter die 4de:

quote:

Most .458s sold in North America are interesting range toys

I expected so....

This brings up another question - is the 338 Win Mag more popular than the 375 H&H in the US?

Pieter

Vastly more popular. If someone has a .375 he's probably day dreaming about Africa. If someone has a .338 he's probably day dreaming about big bears in Alaska or British Columbia. Most American hunters will never do either but it keeps the dream alive.

Since Hornady is offering 458 ammo that has a MV of 2140 fps, that would put the 458 in the bracket that it was built for. This duplicates the 470.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
What's the best off-the-shelf factory .458WM available new these days? I can't seem to find any I like more than the Winchester Model 70, and regret selling mine, even though it went to a good home!

as a leftie the only choice i had was the zastava and they re coming in rh too ... stil happy with mine even if there is certainly better custom or semi custom option.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
What's the best off-the-shelf factory .458WM available new these days? I can't seem to find any I like more than the Winchester Model 70, and regret selling mine, even though it went to a good home!

I'd go with the FN/Win and have work done on the stock"s heal.

Fwiw- one of the nicest and least expensive .458 win mags can be made using a VZ24 Mauser action with a no. 3 contour pac-nor 22 inch barrel and a cheap plastic stock ( good pad needed) and open sights. This recipe is light at 8 lbs, a delight to carry as you can wrap your hand right around the action which is the balance pt of the gun. It mounts fast and swings like its on rails. You can't do that with a Magnum Action and the Lott really doesn't gain much over a modern .458 win mag load. I used to modify the existing Mauser mag box/ follower and open the action and bolt myself. VZ24s are correctly heat treated so never a worry and used to be plentiful and cheap. I built 4 or 5 of these and they flat got the job done on OZ buff. Used to give em away to Guides and friends in exchange for hunting gratuities.

I owned a CZ550 in .458 Win Mag for 4 years and shot about 1000 rounds through it, all handloads.

It also went moose hunting in Northern Ontario (no chance on a bull moose) and the same loads were used on a black bear closer to home. The load was a 350 TSX at 2750 fps (a Lott load). I simply crimped in the bottom cannelure of the bullet.

From its 25" barrel, I could easily extract 2200 fps from the 500gr Hornady at 3.34" and 2283 fps seated 0.25" longer (the difference between a Win Mag and a Lott in COL.

According to Hornady's specs on their brass for the two, the Hornady .458 WM holds 94.2 grains water while the .458 Lott holds 102.6. That's slightly less than 9%. The "Barsness 1/4 Rule" would make the difference between the two loaded to the same psi and equal barrels at 2200 X 1.0223 greater MV from the Lott shooting the same bullet. That's close to what I could get from mine loaded like a Lott. 2200 X 1.0223 = 2249 fps. That's the difference between those two in Hornady's 7th Edition. YMMV. They show a maximum of 2200 fps from their 500gr for the .458 Win and 2250 fps from the Lott; both with 24" barrels.

And yes, with the long throat of my#1 Ruger in .45-70 I can duplicate normal .458 WM loads within WM spec psi. That's from H335, a ball powder granting enough room for enough medium-burning powder, the same I used in the .458 WM behind the 500gr. Otherwise I use H4198 for lighter bullets in each.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yes sir, the .338 Win is very popular in the USA, especially among elk and bear hunters. I see a lot of folks using the .338 win in Alaska and Canada these days, It has become more popular with each year of its existence..It actually is rated right up there these days with the 30-06..It wasn't a 6 day wonder, it earned its strips..Anyone that actually uses it on game will like it. The nay sayers are mostly BS...

I've literally seen as many 8mm magnums as 338s in moose camp but I run with a bad crowd.