I would be only chasing 2200 to 2300 fps with a 570 gr woodleighs in a rifle weighing 10.5 pounds and it will wear a muzzle break

Looking at building a .500 a2 carbine, this is not for dangerous game it's for fun and opening up feral pigs running south like a book!!!

PC

I have tinkered with the Aimpoints on 458s, 458 Lotts, 470 Capsticks, and several other rifles, I have never had one break or be an issue of any sort. I think they hold up to the extremes, and what you are talking about would be just fine I would think. Do use the big ring that is made for the Aimpoint however, it is wide and very strong. I wanted to use QRWs in the beginning, but that did not work so well and they broke promptly on a 470 Capstick, Aimpoint went slinging over my head to land 15 feet behind me, LOL. Never hurt the Aimpoint!

Give them a go!

Michael

Michael thanks for that!! I have an aimpoint a comp ml 2 it sits on my 45/70 marlin I'm going to sell it and build this a2 I'm going to use a stiller tac .338 action, it uses the mk5 mag box used for .378 based rounds when you don't opt for ai mag box as it does not have feed lips as such just like the big mk5 weatherbys based on the .378 rounds. It will feed well as it's single stack center fed. It will go in a manners stock and most likely 18" barrel, I'm trying for mid range loads.

My aimpoint sits in a badger max 50 ring so it should be okay......

You are welcome PC. I have several of the Aimpoints and have been pleased with them, all smaller ones using the single 30MM rings. Can't remember all those Model #s which is which. But I doubt you will ever have an issue, batteries last forever as far as I can tell too! LOL.

Michael

That sounds like a good idea for my Ruger custom .458 win. They aren't too expensive, either.

I have seen them break on 500 Smith and Wessons. They have held up on all the rifles I have seen.

Off topic a bit but if you haven't built you 50 yet I'd suggest using the full size .416 Rigby case and either a .505 or a .510" bullet of your choice. Even as a single stack bolt gun it will feed better than the belted cases.

My flavor is a .505. Cases are easy to fire form from .416 Rigby brass or one run on the dies for 450 Dakota brass.

2300fps will just barely fill the case with little/no compression on a 570g .510 bullet.

I down loaded my 525s and 600s this week to 95grs of H4895. 600s are still hitting 2200fps, with room to spare internally, from a 21" barrel on a 9.3# CZ.

PC,
there's already a 500 AR reamer in OZ, and it will perform better in a cabrine length barrel -- if we are going to start hawking our own stuff ... dies are cheap, and on hand -- Con, Paz, and SF have been working on them.

i've made 600gr OVER 2300fps with a 23" barerl .. and the throat is DESIGNED for also shooting milsurp bullets

Hummmm..... 2.65" case you have to trim or a 2.90 case you simply load and shoot? All going into a 378 action that is built for a 2.90 cartridge case.

Dropping the belt makes sense imo.
Does using a shorter case even make any sense with the action he is using, discounting the increased pressure of a .50 @ 2.65" given similar velocity? Free boreing the chamber is one way to keep pressures down and load long bullets. Not sure it is good chamber design though. No matter what Roy thought. I might be mistaken but doesn't look like either the 500 AR or the 500 A2 have a full caliber size length in the neck. Not helpful in a hard recoiling magazine rifle.

No trying to sell anything just a friendly suggestion on what I believe to be a better round for his project than the 500 A2 or the 500 AR.

500/416 Dies and reamers are easy enough.

Either the 500 A2 or the 500/416 will hit 2500fps at max pressures with a 600gr, but not with me shooting it. 500 AR should be at least 10 to 11% down from that right? 2.31" to 2.14",
plus what you loose in the shorter neck design by the bullet having to be in the powder stack, another .06" at least. So make it 2.08" or 11.5% down. I did the numbers quickly so they may be wrong.

quote:

i've made 600gr OVER 2300fps with a 23" barerl .. and the throat is DESIGNED for also shooting milsurp bullets

Jeff how far exactly 2300 over are you? What powder and load weight are you using to hit 2300+ in the 500 AR and how compressed is it?

Folks,

I am using a big action so the Rigby necked up will work I think the smaller round would be swiming in the Stiller TAC .338 action.

OAL of the 505/416 cartridge with a 600 Woodleigh PP crimped on the cannature is 3.58" if that helps.

Rdb
The AR has exactly a caliber from shoulder to mouth. H335 is the powder, and not compressed. Why the neck length? Bc you can't seat woodies to the groove and it seat in the middle of the shoulder if longer neck. I designed it for max length on available bullets. Having the base of the bullet in the neck is bad for accuracy as wind up benign necks when seating them and under recoil. As the shank on.510 s is so short, why stick in in the neck or over deep. Why 2.65? The case is in the rigby case and allows for perfect length cases, after all you must trim both as brass does flow evenly when fire formed. That explains those wobbly necks, right?

I love all those big wildcats, but don't knock the other designs as we all design them for our own reasons.

My loads are listed on ammo guide, quite a few of them, in fact. Freebore is an indifference to me, like belts those are bias, not constraints, IMHO.

quote:

don't knock the other designs as we all design them for our own reasons.

Wasn't knocking anything. My apologies if you took it that way. Simply asking questions so that I might learn something.

Your print shows a .456" neck and .510" if you include the shoulder. Which doesn't really count does it? As the shoulder adds nothing trying to retain the bullet while in recoil. But no question, better shorter neck than too long of neck. Whelan and Ackley taught that lesson well. Better yet in the big boomers a full caliber neck and place the heel of the bullet directly on top of a just slightly compressed powder stack. Better powder burn and less chance of bullet setback in recoil.

http://www.weaponsmith.com/images/500-AR.jpg

I don't have full access to the ammo-guide pages which is why I asked about your specific 600gr @ 2300+ load.

Best I saw that you did have listed and I could see was a 570 gr bullet at 2255fps. The big caliber, short, fat cases based on the Rigby are all very effecient. Just wondered what powder and load you were using to safely hit 2300fps + with a 600gr bullet in a cartridge that should be limited to just barely 2200fps with a 600gr bullet.

Curious as to the amount of H335 to do that with a 600gr bullet in the 500 AR?

H335 and H4895 are very, very close by the burn rate charts. H335 obviously a ball powder and H4895 a stick powder would make the difference in volume and not requiring a compressed load of H335. Ball powder doesn't generally fair well with heavy compression. Thought H335 might be worth looking at for the full size 500 case.

No offense taken ..

the 500 jeffery had a very short neck .. and even though woodies make the same bullets for the 500 NE (infinite neck) the shank is very short .. . 600gr woodliegh is 1.268 long .. subtract .800 from that, and you with up with .. .468 so that the base of the bullet is between bottom of neck and shoulder, which, one is told, is the "perfect place" for that to be .. a .510 long NECH (would shoulder) is wasting powder capacity ..

So, yeah, it does kinda count .. I've done a good deal of design and research, trying to find the best length, and the answer is, 100% of the time ....
.
.
it depends on what you WANT.

the neck is longer than the 500 jeffe, but not a full (and wasted) 1 caliber length.. but about 1/3 more neck than the jeffe, and not a full caliber ..

it seems, to me, that practicality beats design theory, so I did it that way. the jeffe is .340, and no one has ever complained about bullets sliding back intot he case on factory ammo on that one. That kind of ends all arguements for me ...

I also crimp to the top of the groove .. as I am trying to keep bullets from sliding IN the case.. why give them a running start?

btw, I have a 500jeffe as well .. a couple 500ARs, and a 510 wells waiting to be built..

2318fps with a 600gr woodie, using h335 (lesss than 100 grains) .. while the charts say that the 4895s are close, it not even close in terms of pressur esigns .. i have tried h and i 4895, blc2, wc844 and 846, h414, 760, even 748

one can't wildcat, really, without spend the <20 bucks for ammoguide, imho .. its too good of a resource.

i've used h335, with the better results, from the 550 magnum on down .. btw, don't waste your time with rel19 or 22 in these.. too big of an expansion chamber in the barrel.

i aimed to give the max gun in a standard length action, partnering with Neal, we did the 550 express, and I did the 500, 470, 458, and 416 AR .. its nice to have one powder that does amazingly well in the smaller cases, that fit in standard length actions ..

enough about me .. this is PC's thread

Good info, thanks. The 600 .505 Woodleigh has a .585" shank and 1.286" long. Bigger difference than I might have thought on the .510s. Looks like with the Woodleigh 600 you have all the neck you could use.

500 Jeffery's reputation was based on a .344" neck, much stronger style bullet crimp than our puny roll crimp and cordite. Hard to compress cordite.

quote:

one can't wildcat, really, without spend the <20 bucks for ammoguide, imho .. its too good of a resource.

That is funny. Not sure they were even around 10 years ago when I started shooting my .505.

Thanks for the H335 info. Be interested to see what another 5.56 ball powder will do in the bigger cases. Load info on H4895 and H335 might interest PC as well.

if you measure from the top of the grove down, on the solid, perhaps.

was the 500 jeffe was ever loaded with cordite? (not withstanding what ole joe says on realguns.com) .. the 500 jeffe is the 12,7x70 mm Schuler, loaded with "german flake" powder .. i wasn't aware that it ever ACTUALLY was loaded with that, as the germans didn't use it after flake was invented. i had thought that was a misconception, but i could be wrong, as teh jeffe outran the gibbs until relatively modern times ... as the gibbs was loaded with cordite.. and that powder was notorious for pressure excursions ...

i've never seen a good reference that the 500jeffe was loaded with cordite, but have heard lots of rumors, just because the 505 was .. its my opinion that it could't be, as the pedegry of the gibbs (577express, 557/500 express, 505 gibbs) lends itself to cordite, but the 12,7x70 mm Schuler had no attachment to the larger cases ..

just my opinion, and i could be wrong

I was writing from my poor memory on the 500 Jeffery. The cordite info comes from Art Alpin and an original Jeffery print. I doubt you'll ever find the truth in that story without having actual English/Kynoch manufactured 1920's era 500 Jeffery's ammo to pull the bullets on.

More importantly though is the factory bullet "punch" crimps on the Kynoch 505 Gibbs case (it had 3) and the factory 500 Jeffery (it had 6) to stop bullet set back. Kynoch knew better than to rely on neck tension and a roll crimp. But no question they were resting the base of the .505 Gibbs solid on the cordite.

I have pulled a few .505 Gibbs with cordite that I keep around the shop for show and tell. Cordite is interesting stuff. Think uncooked thin spaghetti pasta for those that haven't see it.

Cordite texture and two of the .505s "punch" crimps should be slightly visable. They dissapear on a fired case.



When I was working on my .505 I talked with Harold Wolfe (most recent German advocate of the .500 Jeffery) and Art Alphin about the Jeffery (who had an orginal 1928 Jeffrey's print (note it is not a Schuler print) for the ".500 Jeffery" loaded with 95 grains of cordite and a 535gr bullet @ 2300fps.
(reference 1996 A-Square manual)

12/15 years ago no one could even agree on the print to be used (English/German) for the 500 Jeffery/Schuer so I suspect (my guess nothing more) is Kynoch (in South African by the '20s) may have loaded Cordite initially (1920+) and the Germans loaded smokeless until they stopped production before WWII.

Records show only 23, .500 Schulers/ Jeffery's built by Jeffery. The rest were German, continental or US rifles (more likely 505 Gibbs in the US though).

Cordite production ceased in the United Kingdom, around the end of the 20th century, (1999) with the closure of the last of the World War II cordite factories. So anything is possible. FWIW cordite was cut by length. I'd venture that even in cordite the Jeffery would out perform the Gibbs, if only barely. In 1948 John Taylor listed the Jeffery as 95gr of smokeless, 535 @ 2400fps, 16 ton of pressure. The 505 Gibbs as 90gr of smokeless 535 @ 2300, 15 ton pressure.

Think about using a Doctor Optic red dot.

The 4 minute dot is the one you want.

The DO is very rugged, they mount them on the slide of a 1911.

They are small and light.

I don't believe the germans used cordite to any large extent, right? So I would believe the schuler was never loaded with it, though kynock may have.. but if art says they used it, i don't believe it and it would have to be proved to me. Not kidding, btw, as art says the coilCHUNK stock is a superior design...

i am fairly certain that the jeffe wasn't loaded with cordite, and I agree with your numbers.. even though there were probably more jeff's made, due to action, than gibbs. There were certainly more schuler+jeff made than gibbs-on-magnum-mausers pre war

anyway-- with a decent crimp, i've had no trouble with the 500 jeff or AR setting back bullets.. though if one doesn't crimp the jeff, it will slide back .. personal experience there.

the target of the 500AccRel was to get 2350 with a 535, which i over ran by 100fps easily, and either the 570 or the 600 at 2150, to match the NE, which i overran by alot, and to have a milsurp shooter, too .. which i played with alttle, but i think needs a much slower powder to have fun with.

and it fits in a standard length action!

btw, i matched the shoulder angle of the jeffe as sort of an homage to the schuler

Dr optic, Aimpoint Micro, Eotech XPS2...these are all great for DG rifles. AND Eotech and Aimpoint have avaialable 3X magnifiers, operation could be much quicker then twisting a magnifier ring on a scope, they side flip. Yes they are all tough, milspec.