Hi, noticed something today sighting in my 375 H&H for elk season. Before this I really didn't care where it shot, just that it was on the paper and grouped well. If I don't hold the forearm tightly it seemed like the recoil was moving the barrel before the bullet left it. When I held the forearm tightly and the butt tightly in my shoulder it sighted in just like my 270 does without doing any of that. Is that normal?

Chuck

Yes. The effect is even more pronounced with the .470 Capstick.

You're not shooting a .223.

George

Same thing with my .450 Dakota. Can't shoot it like you do .243.

Thanks guys, before I figured it out I thought my scope was defective lol ...




Chuck

quote:

. . . it seemed like the recoil was moving the barrel before the bullet left it. Chuck

Chuck

Recoil will not move the rifle much before the bullet has left the barrel, it only seems that way to you. The actual movement is probably in the thousandths of an inch. If you have the barrel length, bullet weight, and powder weight it's easy enough to calculate.

Ray

OK Guys,

This could be VERY important to me as I am seeing problems with some larger caliber rifles.

I've not noticed this effect before, but am having problems with consistent grouping with a .338-06, and a .376/.416 Steyr improved lately. Have been holding them with the forearm rested and my left hand under the butt.

The rest is not firmly fixed and can move during recoil.

Is it necessary to firmly hold the rifle (especially the forearm) in order to get good groups?

Mike,

I find that the torque produced by a large bullet traveling down the bore causes the fore-end to rise. If I do not hold the fore-end down, my groups will not be consistent.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Mike,

I find that the torque produced by a large bullet traveling down the bore causes the fore-end to rise. If I do not hold the fore-end down, my groups will not be consistent.

George

Here is a link to a thread on heavy full length barrel and chamber bedding while leaving the action rails and tang free. Perhaps this might help things.

You have to read the entire thread as some info. is spread out here and there, basically some theories on harmonic torque of a rifle and perhaps how to improve accuracy:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3221043/m/960104609

You definitely have found something real. It really shows up on my 600's if you don't hold them securely.

In benchresting a real big bore (or for any shot, even offhand), it must be tightly gripped with both hands, OF COURSE!!!
With a 577 Tyrannosaur you better put your thumb over the top of the barrel to resist the torque, or the rifle will jump off the front rest and twist over onto its right side (with a right-hand-twist barrel).
If you do this, sub-1/2-MOA 3-shot groups at 100 yards with 900-grain bullets in a 1:12" TWIST barrel are easy, even for a whimp like me:

Mstarling, that's how I shoot my 270 brom the bench also, with the left hand off of the forearm and on the rear bag with my right hand only touching the trigger. It doesn't work for my 375 H&H the recoil is up and to the right. When I hold the rifle firmly in both hands with downward pressure on the forearm, it groups and adjusts fine.

Chuck

Chuck,

What you are experiencing is the same problem most shooters have when they move from shooting a rifle to a rifled shotgun.

Any time you are firing very high recoil firearms the method of choice for shooting off a bench is the "hard hold" method where the forward hand grasps the forend and applies steady downward pressure at approximately a 45 degree reward angle.

While it is possible to attain good groups with high recoil firearms using a standard benchrest technique, (not holding the forend), the chances of POI remaining the same when shooting from a field position are slim at best.

Hope this helps...

JC

Interesting ... I think I naturally do the hold on with both hands on the heavy hitters ... .416 Rigby, .458 AR, and .470 NE.

The loose hold works on the little stuff. I'm thinkin' the middle ground calibers are fakin' me out ;> Will sure try the hard hold on them and see what happens!!!

THANKS!

I try to hang onto everything i shoot.... ....223 or 600 Overkill

Feel free to pound on me - but Benchrest shooters have proven that the way you hold or don't hold your rifle has very little to do with accuracy. It's CONSISTENCY of hold from shot to shot that matters. If Chuck could find a way to shoot his .375 free recoil he would probably find that it made tiny little groups. A .375 will only move about 1/10" to the rear before the bullet leaves the bore but it's what happens afterward that determines where the next shot will go. When working with the violent recoilers it's the need to tame the recoil that matters and to do that you need to hold on for dear life, but the same way for each shot. No shooter can expect to be pounded by recoil and then duplicate his hold for the second shot. The third will be even worse. Recoil destroys a shooters ability to resist flinching. There is no shame in using a sissy bag when shooting the big bores off a bench. They are a shooters friend.

When actually sighting in a hunting rifle the best approach is to duplicate, as nearly as possible, the way you will be holding during a hunt. Shooting with a rolled up sleeping bag under your left forearm over the hood of your pickup is one of the best.

OK, go ahead and jump and pound.

Ray

No that makes perfect sense Ray, with my 270 (even shooting 150g Noslers at 3000 fps), the recoil is so marginal and the bullet fast enough that as long as I'm on a soft rest (sandbag, sleeping bag, etc.). The difference between sight in over a rest and offhand and sitting is neglible. With the 375 H&H it is more comfortable and consistent to hold it like I'm hunting. My last group was under an inch center to center and 2.5" high at 100 yards which is just where I want it. I then shot offhand snd sitting and though my groups got bigger they were all centered around my bench group.



Chuck

I forgot to mention. When shooting over the hood of your pickup, keep the muzzle FAR, FAR away from the windshield. Don't ask me how I know.

Ray

I shot my 375 H&H n the "free recoil" mode whenever I feel the need for stitches in my eyebrow.

I shoot my 416 Rem nearly every weekend. The first two shots are always off the bench. First a TSX then a Banded Solid to make certain the scope is back to zero after removing the scope during the previous session for iron sight practice. A couple of weekends back I tried the "free recoil method". As I squeezed the trigger with my left hand and had wrapped my right hand around the rear rest, I remembered that pesky little handle below the trigger guard on a Ruger No. 1. No more free recoil shooting with the No. 1.

36 Days until Africa

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
I forgot to mention. When shooting over the hood of your pickup, keep the muzzle FAR, FAR away from the windshield. Don't ask me how I know.

Ray

HaHaHa!! I had a couple of friends do that. When they went to drive away, HEY, WTF!!!