On Under Wild Skies - Africa this week Tony Makris uses an 8-bore 19th-century Holland & Holland underlever hammer double for cape buffalo. What I found strange was that he did not cock both hammers at once. He has to stop and cock the left hammer after his first shot, slowing down his second shot signficantly. Is he just being extra careful (avoiding accidental discharge or doubling) or is there some other reason for this? Also, how does this round rate versus some of the more modern rounds for buffalo (.416 Remingtom, for example)?

It looks like it is coming on again in about 20 minutes if anyone is interested.

Edited -- here is the program description:

7/03/2005
The 8 Bore Speaks Again — Join Tony Makris and the Under Wild Skies cameras as they kick off a five-week safari in Tanzania and Botswana. Makris goes after a Cape buffalo with an old 8 bore rifle that is more than 100 years old. A look at the challenges the old timers faced with the weapons of the day and the Cape buffalo, most feared big game animal on the continent.

Doh! I missed it (it airs at 0730 on Sunday on the west coast).

I would've liked to have seen the old 8-bore. Hopefully they'll replay it again.

That was one of the worst segments I have ever seen. It would have been better if someone took both hammers off his gun. They stalked within range, and then when they spook 4 bulls, he snaps off a shot with the 8 bore at a buffalo running away from him, crossing behind a tree, and in a herd. In the replay, the bull is identified beforehand. When he actually shot, the bull they had chosen was completely behind a tree.

At least this year he has stopped referring to everone on staff as "the lads". The whole Stewart Granger personna with maybe 6-7 minutes of actual film time in each segment makes this show painful for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Also, how does this round rate

Probably better than poking the buff in the ass with a sharp stick. Seriously, I can't imagine the round not performing as well as (or better than) a .416 in terms of killing power. Was a "lack of performance" ever a gripe with the 8-bore? It seems much more likely to me that the weight of the weapon was what led to the abandonment of such calibres. I was also a bit surprised to hear of Makris cocking the second hammer after firing the first round. This would only really be necessary due to an apparent lack of stalking safeties on the weapon, no? Would Holland and Holland have made such a rifle without them? If so, why?

Just to offer a comparison between the 8-bore and the .416...

H&H specs from a front stuffer show...
Conical - 1500 f/s, 6273 f/# 1257 grain slug.
Round ball - 1654 f/s, 5232 f/#, 892 grain slug.

This means a TKO of about 224 for the conical and 175 on the round ball or about four and three times (respectively) what the .416 offers. In terms of foot pounds of energy, the round ball load from the 8-bore slightly exceeds that of the various .416s (assuming 2400 fps) at the muzzle. Obviously, TKO and FPE are certainly not the only or best measures of performance on game but the numbers sure put the old BP rounds into perspective don't they?

Best,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Probably better than poking the buff in the ass with a sharp stick. Seriously, I can't imagine the round not performing as well as (or better than) a .416 in terms of killing power. Was a "lack of performance" ever the gripe with the 8-bore? It seems more likely that the weight of the weapon was what led to abandonment of such calibres. I am also a bit surprised to hear of Makris cocking the second hammer after firing the first round. What really surprises me is that it would possibly be perceived as necessary due to an apparent lack of stalking safeties on the weapon. Would Holland and Holland have made such a weapon without them? If so, Why?

Best,

JohnTheGreek

I would have guessed that it was more than adequate as Makris described it as "an elephant gun" and "a stopper" but knowing it is loaded to lower pressures/velocities than newer rounds and likely has less in the way of bullet selection I was looking for more information.

It is indeed a heavy gun (I think he said 15 or 17 pounds). I am also not sure it had stalking safeties as he makes a comment about the hammers being the only safeties, if I caught the comment right (will have to watch again to be sure). Still, when you are ready to shoot it seems you would have both hammers cocked.

Thanks for the information.

From what I have read in some of the older African hunting books, it was common to cock only one hammer at a time.
If you consider the recoil of these big guns, and the black powder smoke, you should have plenty of time to cock the second hammer as you come down out of recoil.
A double discharge in a "bore" rifle would not be a pleasant thing.
I used that technique when shooting my brothers 45/70 Kodiak and it works fine.

That is interesting. I cock both hammers of my Pedersoli when hunting and have not had a problem so far. I do cock them individually when on the range. It definitely seemed to slow Makris down, and he seemed to be using smokeless powder. I can see how a double discharge would be a bad thing.

Maybe I should watch it again and see if I feel differently.

I wouldn't dare be in the same county with an 8 bore if both of the hammers were cocked.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I wouldn't dare be in the same county with an 8 bore if both of the hammers were cocked.

That makes it two votes against cocking both barrels and none in favor. It just looked strange to me, but I guess it is faster to cock the second than to reload a single shot.

I suppose you can learn something new every day.

It also means you have your second shot. A lot of the early hunters didn't have a PH standing behind them ready to take up the slack. If you doubled, you were dead in the water until a reload was completed.

A double discharge comes under the heading of "Significant Emotional Event"

I wached an 10 bore shot gun double on Charlie Haley some years back, and had to take the lad to Camp hospital for some shoulder repair! Hate to think what anything bigger would have done. Surgury would probably be needed.

Jeez, I can't even stand the recoil of a 600 N.E. and I was just watching, not shooting it!!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I wouldn't dare be in the same county with an 8 bore if both of the hammers were cocked.

500, what is the difference between haveing both hammers cocked on a hammer rifle, and haveing both barrels cocked on a hammerless rifle? The only difference , I can see, is you can see the external hammers, and the tumblers are hidden in a hammerless!

The old Paradox rifles are fun rifles to shoot at things like Black bear over bait, and to hunt things like moose. They were used on just about everything in their day, but they weren't any more effective then than now, they simply were what was available at the time. most of the old writers failed to mention the ones that got away wounded. In those days there was no legal reason to follow up a wounded animal, especially if it was into tight bush where he may become a big problem. Still, those old big bores are a piece of history that shouldn't be put asside. The only thing is, one should use them for what they do best, and if that is to include Buffalo, then it should be done in fairly open bush, with a very capable back-up!

With a charge of 12 to 14 drams behind 3ozs of hardened metal no second shot should be necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
With a charge of 12 to 14 drams behind 3ozs of hardened metal no second shot should be necessary.

Paolo9,5x73, I'm not aware of any firearm, short of a 16" shore battery, that can gurantee a one shot kill on a cape buffalo!

quote:

500, what is the difference between haveing both hammers cocked on a hammer rifle, and haveing both barrels cocked on a hammerless rifle? The only difference , I can see, is you can see the external hammers, and the tumblers are hidden in a hammerless!

Mac -- do I take this to indicate that you think the normal course would be to carry this one (when a shot is imminent) with both hammers cocked? That was my original question, and I would love to have your view on the matter.

Mac makes an interesting point about the psychological influence of being able to actually see the hammers. Assuming equal mechanical reliability, there is no reason to change one's preference for cocked hammers just because one can see them! That said, we are in some sense comparing apples to oranges here. We have all heard of or known people having their "smaller" calibre double do just that! The result might be frightening or damaging to the rifle but not likely terribly unhealthy for the shooter in the grande scheme of things. When talking about an 8-bore, the rules change and I think I would definitely prefer hammers with stalking safeties.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I wouldn't dare be in the same county with an 8 bore if both of the hammers were cocked.

500, what is the difference between haveing both hammers cocked on a hammer rifle, and haveing both barrels cocked on a hammerless rifle? The only difference , I can see, is you can see the external hammers, and the tumblers are hidden in a hammerless!

Only my subjective impression that the sears on an old hammer gun may not hold firm under the recoil of an 8 bore. Not only do I have no evidence of that, I also lack the courage to try to find out through personal experience.

E.M. Reilly 8 bore rifle:



http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976553580.htm

I have noticed that those big guns don't kill much different than a 458 Lott for example, the rest is in your mind...Same when you compare the 06 to a 300, just not that much difference, but of course that upsets the boys shooting the 600 and the 300s!

I have films of buffalo being shot with a 470, 500, and a 577, took 9 shots on one and 13 on the other, an interresting film to say the least. A client sent it too me a couple of years ago..

For consistant one shot kills on Buff I suspect a 50 BMG or 20 MM would be necessary, not kidding I belive this. I know a 577 cannot be depended on to kill a buff in his tracks everytime, it just will not do it...

Watching it again tonight. The rifle is 17 pounds. His "safety" is putting the hammer(s) on half-cock. There are no stalking safeties.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have films of buffalo being shot with a 470, 500, and a 577, took 9 shots on one and 13 on the other...For consistant one shot kills on Buff I suspect a 50 BMG or 20 MM would be necessary, not kidding I belive this.

Re: The 50bmg .vs the .500: I have a hard time believing that two solid .50 cal rounds within 400fps of each other are going to perform any differently from one another. I mean, a half inch exit wound is a half inch exit wound regardless of what caused it I suspect. If we are talking about a soft point .500 ... well, I might now be more inclined to avoid the BMG in this hypothetical case.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Was someone looking for bullets for the 8 bore
I will be happy to make them up ..
and i will give away 25 bullets if i get to watch someone trip both trigers at once

I always wanted a "free" 8 bore dropped only once
Any takers

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
I always wanted a "free" 8 bore dropped only once
Any takers

I'll flip you for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
I always wanted a "free" 8 bore dropped only once
Any takers

I'll flip you for it.

Your on ...Now to find someone to trip both triggers at once ? Hummmmm ? lets see

I got it lets get
JohnTheGreek to do it ! ya!! John will do it ...

Now we just have to talk him into buying an 8 bore O John!

Some more 8 bore Pics for those interested. Note the Manton action with non-rebounding hammers.



A Manton and a Tolley



Barrels. That is a 700 Nitro in the barrel of the Tolley and a .22 on the Manton.



What the Buffalo sees.

Nice 8 bores ..But whos the old Gezzer

And i also see . the "Other" Bullet company's
Box next to the trigger gaurd..

Wana trade ? a 8 bore empty case for a few .700
diameter bullets in .? 850 grain or 900 grain or 1000 grain or 1100 grain in a jacket wall of 0.050 copper.....

Say 15 bullets or so now dont be tight fisted

LOL

Martin

Does anyone make a New breech loading 8 bore double rifle ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Some more 8 bore Pics for those interested. Note the Manton action with non-rebounding hammers.

Thanks for the pictures.

I did not see the film, but I have fired a number of 12-8 bore rifles and would not cock both hammers. My Rhodda 12 bore is made for Tiger hunting and does not have safeties, as I'm sure most dangerous game hammer bore guns don't either.

You sure would not want a safety being "too Safe" and getting in the way when a bad one comes at you!

My lighter black powder express rifles all have the stalking safeties, and that is usually the case with the express rifles.

Once used to hammer guns it is old hat to get the next hammer cocked. Even when grouse or woodcock hunting I can manage a hammer gun well. I just taked practice, just like everything.

I was doing some shooting with friends and a Droplock Westley 577 nitro doubled.( I wasn't shooting it at the time ) Not fun at all. Needed a trip to the gunsmith to adjust the lock on the second barrel. Never have someone set the trigger pull like a varmit rifle when its on a big gun. It can lead to accidents or worse!

enough rambling, I'm done

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
I did not see the film, but I have fired a number of 12-8 bore rifles and would not cock both hammers.

I appreciate your thoughts as one who has fired these guns.

quote:

Once used to hammer guns it is old hat to get the next hammer cocked. Even when grouse or woodcock hunting I can manage a hammer gun well. I just taked practice, just like everything.

When I watched the episode again, I could see that he did not miss a shot by cocking the second barrel, although whether he would have been able to cock it faster if he needed to is uncertain. He took the rifle down from his shoulder each time.

quote:

enough rambling, I'm done

Mark

But you haven't posted any pictures of your Rhodda yet!

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
Nice 8 bores ..But whos the old Gezzer

And i also see . the "Other" Bullet company's
Box next to the trigger gaurd..

Wana trade ? a 8 bore empty case for a few .700
diameter bullets in .? 850 grain or 900 grain or 1000 grain or 1100 grain in a jacket wall of 0.050 copper.....

Say 15 bullets or so now dont be tight fisted

LOL

Martin

Martin

The old guy is a friend. The Rifle weighs 17 lbs and is haard for an old fellow like that to hold up.

I have lots of Woodleighs, probably well over 2500 in various calibers.

Sorry, I have no use for more 700 NE Bullets. I still need the 20 Bore ones for my Faunetta though.

On penitration. I have not shot anything with an 8 Bore but I can tell you that a 10 Bore will penitrate a Water Buffalo and a Bison end to end.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
Nice 8 bores ..But whos the old Gezzer

And i also see . the "Other" Bullet company's
Box next to the trigger gaurd..

Wana trade ? a 8 bore empty case for a few .700
diameter bullets in .? 850 grain or 900 grain or 1000 grain or 1100 grain in a jacket wall of 0.050 copper.....

Say 15 bullets or so now dont be tight fisted

LOL

Martin

Martin

The old guy is a friend. The Rifle weighs 17 lbs and is haard for an old fellow like that to hold up.

I have lots of Woodleighs, probably well over 2500 in various calibers.

Sorry, I have no use for more 700 NE Bullets. I still need the 20 Bore ones for my Faunetta though.

On penitration. I have not shot anything with an 8 Bore but I can tell you that a 10 Bore will penitrate a Water Buffalo and a Bison end to end.

Mickey

I spent the day over a Richard Corbins
We talked at length about your 20 Ga shotgun/rifle

There is a very good chance that a jacketed bullet fired from your rifle would blow your barrel off at the point were the riflings start

Your rifle was ment to fire Pure Lead slugs

---------

The Fauneta and Explora were ball and shot guns made by Westly-Richards. The Fauneta was in 20 and 28 gauge. The 28 gauge is pretty rare. The Explora was in 12 and 16 gauge. Many people incorrectly refer to these guns as Paradox guns but they are not. The Paradox was similar but different and was intended for use with a solid lead projectile.
The ball and shot guns were made to shoot a projectile referred to as a ball, a custom still used by our military, or fired shot cartridges. You could hunt grouse or change to the special shell and bag a deer.
The guns are interesting as most used an improved choke and had the last few inches of the barrel rifled with a ratchet style rifling. This is probably what causes the confusion between Paradox rifles and the ball & shot guns. Both have a rifled muzzle but the rifling is different, the ball & shot guns are choked, the Paradox shoots a big lead slug, and the Paradox gun has a single purpose, that being to bag big game. Holland & Holland also made ball & shot guns but Westly-Richards seems to have done the most development work with them.

The projectile was made in three pieces. There is a lead slug that often had a hollow base. The lead slug was basically a cylinder with a hollow base (or flat base), and a hollow cavity in the front end. The slug had a large, deep groove in it. A nose cone was placed onto the slug with a stem extending into the hollow cavity. The slug was swaged around the stem to lock the nose cone onto the slug.
The nose cone was made in two pieces. One piece was an upside-down top hat. The rim of the top hat fit inside of the nose cone. The barrel of the top hat went into the hollow cavity in the slug. The nose cone was solid on the end but had a inside rim on the bottom end. So the top hat was inserted into the nose cone, the assembly was pressed into the slug and swaged in place.

The groove in the lead slug was not for lubricant but provided a place to crimp the slug in the case. A ring crimp was used to secure the slug in the case. The crimping tool looked sort of like a pair of pliers or tongs. You'd put the loaded cartridge in the crimping tool, squeeze the handles, and the crimp was done.

The nose cone was made from different materials depending on what game was being hunted. Spun lead was used, copper was used, and a brass nose cone was common. The brass nose cone was used for bigger and heavier game, the lead nose cone was used for small game. Nose cones came in two styles that I am familiar with. One was a straight taper with a bit of a rounded tip, essentially a spire point. The other was what we'd call a semi-spitzer.

Westly-Richards claimed remarkable accuracy and power out to 300 yards with these special projectiles. Coupled with the fact that the shot patterns were not bad the dual purpose guns were fairly popular in England, Europe, and Africa. Hunting seasons over-lapped and one could shoot birds, small game, and deer all in one outing with only the one gun.

--------------

Ross Seyfried has a 28 gauge Fauneta and it would be worthwhile to try to contact him at his ranch, Elk Song Ranch in Pendleton, Oregon. I think he runs an ad for guided hunting trips in Rifle magazine.

I will try and get a address and phone number for you if you like ?


The only other way would be to sabot a jacketed bullet for you .

Put it in plastic shotgun wad.

I am still trying to work somthing out for you dont give up the ship yet guy

--------

I was thinking of trying a three piece jacketed bullet ...But it needs more looking into .


Martin

Charles,

I will post some photos if I can figure this stuff out. I am new to this site and hate computers! I'm lucky that I can type on them.

Bruce LePage is refinishing the stock on that rifle now, so I can't give any photos.

I could try some of my 577 Boss or another rifle to give this photo thing a try.

Please help a complete computor idiot with how to post.

Thanks,

Mark Baker

Boy, I just looked at my spelling on my post___________________________________________________________________yikes!

I better take more time!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Charles,

I will post some photos if I can figure this stuff out. I am new to this site and hate computers! I'm lucky that I can type on them.

Bruce LePage is refinishing the stock on that rifle now, so I can't give any photos.

I could try some of my 577 Boss or another rifle to give this photo thing a try.

Please help a complete computor idiot with how to post.

Thanks,

Mark Baker

Terry Carr has a post on posting pictures -- click here to read it.

The short version is that you have to first upload them to a picture hosting site on the internet (like Photobucket). You can then get the URL of the image (it should end in .jpg) and copy that into the box you get when you click the picture button (second from the right) at the top of the reply box in which you reply to or post a message.

If all else fails you can email some pictures to me and I will post them. My email address is in my profile.

We would love to see pictures of your rifles.

I guess I better bone up on the computer stuff!

I did manage to up load my web site with a couple photos of some of my stuff.

The photo page is most all personal stuff. You can see my Boss, Westley and Janson. I have more but it took more than 3 hours to up load the site with a minimum amount of change. (bad dial up you see ! )

http://www.thesecondshot.com

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
I guess I better bone up on the computer stuff!

I did manage to up load my web site with a couple photos of some of my stuff.

The photo page is most all personal stuff. You can see my Boss, Westley and Janson. I have more but it took more than 3 hours to up load the site with a minimum amount of change. (bad dial up you see ! )

http://www.thesecondshot.com

Mark

Thanks for the link.

This is the small picture of the Boss and Westley:



And this is the link to the much larger picture (very large).

These are the small pictures of the Janson:





And the (much) larger version links:

Janson 1

Janson 2

Janson 3

Thanks again for posting the information. I can imagine it would take quite a while to upload the large files via dial-up.

The stocks on both of those are unbelivable

My mouths watering those are two
of the best looking shotguns i have seen in a loooooong time..


Nice double rifle

Martin

They are not shotguns.

The top one is a Boss .577 Snider double rifle, the one below is a Westley Richards 577/500 Express double rifle.

Mark