Hey...THis might be a record...We made it almost 2 full pages before people started talking stupid

I have just as much faith in Remington's extractor as I do in Winchester's safety system...

For you slow guys...It's $1100...

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
By my count, only one person has any brains as to a good rifle versus the intrinsic value of a "classic". I wouldn't own a Winchester (pre or post 1964) if you gave it to me. I'd damned well sell it to these 31 other guys who love it and pay for my safari to begin with. The safety is a POS on all Winchesters and that "claw" extractor, touted as being the "only positive extraction" is too prone to damage and breaking. Though I'd probably go into debt to buy a Sako instead, I'd still take a Remington any day of any week of a Winchester.

WEll I guess people can dislike Model 70s for a variety of reasons, but to call the Model 70 safety a POS while touting the "fail on fire" Remington 700 safety takes the cake. Do yourself a favor a "google" Remington 700 safety and see how much litigation is out there.

Also, ever wonder why the overwhelming majority of Professionals favor the 70 (or a M98)over the 700? Maybe it's the glued on bolt handle, the sheet metal extractor that DOES break, particularly if debris is allowed to accumulate behind it, a bolt knob that looks like a Ricola throat lozenge and oh yeah, the fact that the safety is UNSAFE and won't even lock the bolt good enough reasons?

So supposedly you had ONE (1) Model 70 extractor break and that's it. Now there's a statistically significant and well-reasoned excuse. jorge

quote:

Tell us when you break the extractor on the Remington, it shouldn't be long. When your extractor breaks and the buff is coming, you will be glad you have nice wood on the Remington. It will help out a ton to save your ass.

Why don't we start a new talley. How many of these CRF moonies have acutaly had a Rem 700 extractor break, or the rifle fail to fire.

DR B

Probably not many if none at all. Reason being, most of them posess the requisite intelligence to learn from other's mistakes and proffer from the recommendations and on-hand experiences of professionals (like Don Heath, Ganyana, Kevin Roberston toname just three that have personally witnessed this malady and on more than one occassion) to stay away from them. Personally, I've seen one extractor break at the range (albeit in many years) and more than once bolt handles come off. The bigest issue and one there is no getting around is the safety. It is UNSAFE and while I don't trust any safety, the Remington safety is particularly notorious as stated on my previous post.

Having said all of that, the use of a 700 would not keep me from going on Safari for ANY animal anywhere. jorge

My choise wasn't listed. It is SAKO Hunter 75 in 375 H&H

Good ole' Sako, Browning Safari Gr., or Weatherby with assembly around FN Mauser action being the common denamenator.
Something obscure like Dschulnigg, or Centaure would work fine.
Winchester is not my cup of 'Earl Grey'.

My favorite rifle is the cz i own a cz602 in 375hyh and i consider it the best of the best .Juan

Archer_375

From your original list,
I would pick:
1. Model 70
2. Rem 700
3. Ruger

From your comments and observations:
1. Rem 700
2. Model 70
3. Ruger

I owned a CZ in 375. It was a great gun but it too, handled a little heavy. Like what your describing with the 70.

I can strongly endorse the CZ, as I have a one in 416 Rigby currently getting a rework to make it handle a little better.

If you like the 700, by all means shoot it a bunch and get comfortable with it.

I have been hunting with 700's for 25 years and shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through that type of action and have NEVER had a problem with them.

The most problematic rifles I have owned have all been Rugers. Probably just a bad run of luck on them. But I will not own a Ruger rifle ever again.

I own CRF rifles also, if they are functioning like they should, they are good. But search the forum and see how many guys are having "feeding problems" with CRF's.

If you don't like the safety/trigger on a 700. Get an aftermarket, it's a whole lot cheaper than sending a CRF to a specialist gunsmith.

As far as safeties, go with what you are comfortable with. I don't have any problems with the Model 70 or Remington style safeties. But I must admit that I am not very comfortable with a Beuhler type.

If I ever get another 375 be it an H&H or the new 375 Ruger. It will be on a 700 action.

If you want to sell the Remington, send me a PM.

Model 70 by a long shot. One of my .375s is a customized pre-64 and I love it.

BTW, george roof, if you bought a Model 70 NIB in 1973, then unless it had been sitting on the shelf since before 1964, it was a push feed, not a CRF, and it therefore had no claw extractor.

quote:

BTW, george roof, if you bought a Model 70 NIB in 1973, then unless it had been sitting on the shelf since before 1964, it was a push feed, not a CRF, and it therefore had no claw extractor.

Bingo. jorge
PS: And now that I think about it, the Model 70 stock is a David Miller design that's been touted by many as a great example of from, fit & function. This smells like a set up to stir up crap from the onset.

The Model 70. If yours really feels bad and doesn't fit, take it to a good gunsmith and have the stock changed. I have a nice Model 70 in 30-338 in a synthetic stock and it is very practical and feel great to me. I wish I could tell you whose stock it is, but I do not know. I could ask my 'smith. It works. Kudude

Count me as another in the M70 camp. The three position safety is the best in the industry, and a claw extractor is the most reliable of any design. The Remington has a very bad habit of the bolt coming open and potentially falling out when the "safety" catch is on safe. Happened to me several times while hunting on horseback with the rifle in it's scabbard as we passed through brushy areas. I have also broken two of their flimsy extractors, luckily for me both times were not on a hunting trip.As others have noted, their safety is a hazard in other ways as well. The Ruger is just too big and bulky, not to mention overly heavy for a 375. I'd seriously consider their new 375 Ruger in the smaller rifle!

that F***ing piece of sheet metal Remington calls an extractor cost me the Oregon State Hunter Class Benchrest Championship a few years back. Got under a minute left and three shots to go...fire! and open the bolt...no 308W empty comes out. Extractor goes "ting" onto the follower. So, here's the scramble to get the cleaning road and tap the empty case out. First, take the bolt out, then raise muzzle with range officer standing there. One vigorous palm slap and the rod and empty come out. Next, remove the rod, set the rifle down on the rest and rear bag and grab a round...Bang, open bolt and repeat!! Timer goes off just as I reposition the rifle on the front rest and rear bag!! Target scoring rings go from 5 to 10 points plus a 1/16" dot in the center for an "X". I lose to some guy from Helena, Montana by six lousy points. Put that last 150gr Sierra Matchking anywhere in a 3 inch ring at 200 yards and I am THE Man!! Leave one loaded round in the box and I drop out of the Top Ten.

That would have been a pretty funny story looking at a Cape Buffalo or Elephant at about twenty feet and closing.

Any design characteristic(flaw)that can get you killed should be avoided like the plague. I build varmnt rifles on Remingtons and Savages...I build/buy DG rifles that have claw extractors. Old Model 70's, CZ's, and P14/17/M30 Remingtons. Think of a 700 in Africa as the equivalent of walking downtown LA on Friday night, unarmed; you might do just fine, but why take the chance?

Rich
DRSS
Claw Extractor Fan

I've been gone for a week, and there have been some interesting posts...The Ruger (yes Ruger) is starting to grow on me...I haven't shot enough rounds through any of the three rifles to make a decision, but from a "personal" favorite standpoint the M70 still falls into last place...I have at least two interested buyers for the Remington if I decide against it, and have had several inquirees about the Winchester should I decide to get rid of it...I really don't think I'll be making any decisions until this summer when I can shoot all three in some decent weather conditions...The last time I went to the range it was 10 degrees, 25 mph wind and snowing like he!!...Not exactly the best conditions to be testing a rifle for Africa...Thanks for the comments, I continue to read them/consider them all in coming to my own conclusions...Keep them coming...

Where do you live in ND?

Once I get my CZ back, you are more than welcome to come down and take a look.
It should be back in the next month or so.

SD...I am in Carrington...Thanks for the offer, but I've already ruled the CZ out...Thanks again though...

Carrington is a a pretty good trip to the SD Black Hills.

I thought maybe you could be from the SW corner of ND. It wouldn't be a bad trip from there.

If you don't have a good double rifle, then take the:
#1 The Mod 70 CRF

#2 the Ruger CRF

#3 Re-barrel the PUSH FEED mod 700 to a bull barrel 240 Wby Mag, leave it in the USA, to shoot Marmot, and Coyote!

To me it's a toss up between the M70 and the Ruger; the Remington is not in the running. Though I am not a fan of the standard Ruger 77, I like their big magnum and its integral quarter rib. I would actually be happy with either if they were the only choices; however since I have a nice Sako AV in 375, I'd take it. Lou

if you are shy, and need some help starting conversations; taking the remington will do it for you. Everyone from customs to camp will be asking you "...what the heck did you bring that POS for when you say you have an old model 70 in the same caliber...?".

Rich
DRSS

If your Winchester is controll round feed: Take that as it is probably lighter than the Ruger, if not, take the Ruger!!!

If I would trust any gun in my safe most, it will be my Ruger express Rifle in .30-06!!! It has never let me down. As Your Ruger is the same system, I would take this choice!!!

SDhunter
I worked at Homestake till they closed.

I would take any one of the three. I have been shooting centerfires since the early sixties. Most have been 700's. I never met a person who has had a problem with their extractors. I have had a couple of 70's in 338. I like them a lot. I have only had one 77, in a 280 Rem. It worked great also.
Idaho Sharpshooter - you are the first person I have heard from that has ever had a problem with the Rem extractor - at least on the 700's.

Before I went to Africa with any of these rifles I would shoot them a bunch and on hot days if possible.

sodakota,

go to any of the competition rifle shooting URL's and post the question... About 75-80% of the gunsmith's building M700's for competition automatically remove the extractor and replace it with a Sako. The others will suggest it.

Rich
DRSS

That is the biggest waste of money I have ever heard of.

I worked for a company that put thousands of rounds through 700's without failure. I am sorry to hear about the failure on your 308 though. But I don't see the need for changing out extractors, sorry. I have shot silhouette and I have seen people do the same thing as someone else because it was the latest craze, this happened a lot especially if the new craze began with a shooter in the unlimited class. People doing something because someone else says it is cool, in my opinion little or no basis for it. Not saying you did not have a problem, just don't think it is a common problem.

I believe there was a problem with the 721s though.

And as far as extractor problems I would wager that the Winchester or the Ruger would have as many failures. However, I have not seen Ruger or Winchester at many matches.

have to talk to the germans and the rest of the armies that used a full claw extractor during WWI & II. The remington-style ejector/plunger only came about after the bolt action rifle was discontinued as a primary weapon of war. It was cheaper to build, and nobody's life was (usually) at stake...so they got into production. They are like plywood stocks, and new cars that do not include rolldown windows on two doors. Cheap! I expect that listing both rifles in the classifieds will result in about 100 times as many bidders at twice or better the price on the M70 vs M700. That should tell you something important. If the advice given here does not seal the deal as far as which one to take, YOU! will probably enjoy the 700 as much as the model 70. Have you noticed that remington is trying to sell claw extractor rifles these days for more than the basic 700?

Rich
DRSS

I see you have a very strong opinion on this subject.
I have won 4 state matches, but it was not in benchrest, it was in Silhouette. It seems to me that benchrest people don't mind spending $1,000 to get an extra point added to their score. In the gamme I enjoyed Silhouette we did not put near as much money into a piece as the benchrest crowd. Although the unlimited guns did get spendy. The winners were more likely the ones who practiced a lot! (2 to 4 times a week over what they shoot at matches) The unlimited guns were mostly based on the xp-100 action. You know I did not see one of these converted to a different extractor. Perhaps your experience is limited to benchrest?
In many of the games such as silhouette, BPCR, muzzle loader, and yes Benchrest; shooters seem to do what the leaders do w.o. much experience of their own. Since you seem to be one of the leaders in your area I suspect that you probably have influenced people to make the change even though they never had a problem with the Remingtons.
For example,
in .22 matches the most accurate brand and type and lot number is sought out by the shooter due to Joe Blow winning a state match.
in BPCR the right lot number of the primer is being chased by different shooters for the same reason, same goes for lube, bullet, alloy etc.
in Trap it is the shotgun that people will pay riduculous prices for.
Need I go on?
If Winchester could sell for ten times what a Remington sells for, I suspect they would still be in business , don't you think so?
Personnally I think the same of the converted Remingtons as you do of the stock ones. I would not buy a 700 with a different extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by sodakota:
That is the biggest waste of money I have ever heard of.

I worked for a company that put thousands of rounds through 700's without failure. I am sorry to hear about the failure on your 308 though. But I don't see the need for changing out extractors, sorry. I have shot silhouette and I have seen people do the same thing as someone else because it was the latest craze, this happened a lot especially if the new craze began with a shooter in the unlimited class. People doing something because someone else says it is cool, in my opinion little or no basis for it. Not saying you did not have a problem, just don't think it is a common problem.

I believe there was a problem with the 721s though.

And as far as extractor problems I would wager that the Winchester or the Ruger would have as many failures. However, I have not seen Ruger or Winchester at many matches.

Sodakota , There is a large difference between shooting at silhouette matches, and going into the weeds with a wounded cape buffalo. The way the rifle is used in most DG hunting, is a far removed opperation from target shooting! As far as I have been able to find, nobody has ever been charged by a silhouette, from 10 yds, where he had to work that bolt fast, and under very severe case of nerves, many times causeing one to short shift, or yank the bolt too hard, and be left with a brazed on bolt handle in his hand, and the bolt in the rifle, or finding two rounds in the loading port with only one chamber to house them, because of the push feed design.

The fact is, it is not a well thought out sittuation, to take a rifle into mortal combat with anything that is not as idiot proof as one can obtain. Here CRF actions are top of the line, and any push feed rifle, regardless of make is simply second best,AT BEST, and may not be any better choice than a single shot in many cases.

It is true that you may choose what ever floats your bass boat, but it is a smart man who is willing to change his opinion, on things he has not had any experience with, when offered good advice,to the contrary, by those who have that experience. Still, as I said use what ever you want, but I see no benefite in getting angry because you don't agree with the advise! Good day sir!

Hello,
Lots of opinions here on the Rem 700 and yes, even some facts as well. It is not, I repeat not a good thing to install a Sako style extractor in a Remington bolt face. Some install the M16/AR15 style, but either one weakens the bolt design. Loading until the strike on the primer is not visible will tend to blow out extractors and in the event this would occur with the Sako type extractor in place, gas escape is much greater and dangerous.
Trigger is fine on 700's as delivered, easily adjusted, tuned, etc., Jewells are better, but both work fine. Bolt handle for severe useage should be removed, drilled and tapped (two fasteners) into bolt body, brazed and will abolutely not come off. Strongest bolt attachment available. Have not had problem with the safety in over 50 years of use w/ the Remingtons, both in civilian as well as service use.
The 700 Remington is recognized and utilized thoughout the free world in extremely difficult situataions and lives are dependent upon them performing when asked to do so. Currently know of no military establishment routinely (issue that is) using a rifle with the long claw extractor or ejector other than plunger/spring type. I am sure there may be some, but not common.
Statement about certain style targets not charging or providing danger is true, but rest assured the Remington 700 has and is as we speak, facing targets that damn well shoot back and must be dealt with promptly. In fact has been employed in extreme danger applications for more that 40 years now. Can't be all bad and whether you like or dislike Remingtons has no bearing on the record of the weapon. Facts speak for themselves.
Not long ago read of a hunting trip in darkest Africa and hunter using much praised double rifle of 470NE caliber and after two quick shots failed to drop/stop the Cape Buff and had the PH not shot with his Ruger RSM/458Lott, both would have suffered serious injury or death. Gun would not open after the two shots???? Believe the article said that the double rifle was a real bargain for he purchased for the paultry sum of 18,000.00 U.S. For those wishing to buy a double rifle , had you been on the spot when this occured, figure the price would have been very favorable.
Scuttlebut about Rem. going out of business like Winchester and that is entirely possible but it will not be due in any way to the Remington 700 Rifle. If you wish to verify sales numbers of mfg.s on firearms, ATF data base gives fairly current numbers on that and I think you will find the 700 sells rather briskly.

Sodakota,

Thanks for the refreshing point of view with some competition experience to back it up.

A little off subject, but I didn't know that SD had silhouette matches. How would one get involved? I like competitions that try to simulate hunting. It's always good to sharpen the skills with the hunting rifle.

YeeHaw!!
I was watching one of the hunting promo shows today and can you believe it.

They were shooting at a monster moose and....
They had a problem with a model 70. The bolt would not pick up the round and chamber it!!

I personally would rather have a problem at the range than in an actual hunting experience.

Just thought I would get every going again.

No gun is bullet proof (pun intended). That is why you practice until you are 100% comfortable with the rifle.

Every brand of gun has had it's problems. I try not to bash and only give experiences that I've had.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello,
Lots of opinions here on the Rem 700

Scuttlebut about Rem. going out of business like Winchester and that is entirely possible but it will not be due in any way to the Remington 700 Rifle. If you wish to verify sales numbers of mfg.s on firearms, ATF data base gives fairly current numbers on that and I think you will find the 700 sells rather briskly.

Hemmerelli sells lots of target rifles, but you don't see any in the bush with Cape Buffalo!The fact that Rem sold a lot of 700s doesn't make them a good format for a DGR, and even Rem has finally turned the corner, and has gone back to a CRF rifle,though I must admit, it is a little rough, and the 700 is on it's way out, for anything but the deer blind.

Driver that was very well written, and facts you state are true, but the military application Of the Mod 700 Remington, as you know,is limited to sniper use, which is in all ways the same thing as target shooting. Shots take from hideing, and from very long range. This is not to say that the sniper is not in danger, but this is not a regular combat opperation, and would not stand up in general combat. The 700s used for sniper opperation are not out of the box K-mart 700s, but have been gone through, and re-worked just as most Trget rifle built on the mod 700s for target shooting.

In the sittuation where rappid use of the rifle, under very tence and very close quarters, the push feed actions are simply not a well thought out design. If you think I am a 700 hater, nothing could be farther from the truth, and I own several 700s, and other push feed rifles, in chamberings from 223, to 7mm Rem Mag, and for the appliccations they are used for, they are fine. However, that application does not include dangerous game, and are limited to nothing more dangerous than an ELK, or Moose!

The DGR is a speciality rifle,just like a sniper rifle,and the requirements for each are glareingly different! They are not the same, and though dangerous game can be killed with almost anything, that fact doesn't mean they all will be the best choice, for the purpose.

The Mauser action was designed for a general combat weapon, when the bolt action was the best design for that purpose, and it was made as IDIOT proof as a bolt rifle can be. That is the reason every combat bolt rifle made for war use was a basic Mauser design. That also is the reason every fine rifle maker in the world, when building a bolt action rifle for hunting, of dangerous game the world over has always been a Mauser, or a Mauser clone. That wasn't an accident, it was because they were the best you could get for that purpose, and no bolt rifle to come down the pike since, and been a better choice.

The push feed actions were not made because they were an improvement over the CRF, they were made because they were cheaper to make, and required less man power to make them. Because they could be made almost completely by robot machines, skilled men weren't needed, cutting cost. IOW, to improve the maker's bottom line, nothing more.

The statement still stands, target shooting is not DGR hunting! The reliability that is needed in the DGR rifle isn't necessary in a sniper rifle either, because the target rarely even knows what hit him, and his buddies have no idea where the shot came from. Dangerous game are not shot at 800 yds, from hideing, and if you work that bolt fast to get in another shot, from 10 yds, and it jams, you AINT hidden, and now you are the target, while holding an eight pound club.

There is a reason you never see target rifles in the hunting field, for other than P-dogs, or groundhogs. That is because their only real requirement is accuracy, not fire power, or the way it handles in a time sensitive leathal setting.

This is a subject that will never be solved, because as you say K-Mart, and wally world put one in every deer hunting blind in the USA, and so it stands to reason that because accuracy, and price are the only things most guys think about when buying a deer rifle, the thing most found in Wally World are the ones that are going make up the bulk of sales. Cape Buffalo ain't deer, and the requirements are certainly not the same for deer hunting, and cape buffalo FIGHTING! No matter what you do, a push feed rifle will never be as relaible as a CRF, both being in like condition!

Anything made by man, can be damaged by man, but if one is smart, he will select the one that is harder to break, if his life depends on it working properly.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but she ani't gonna be the prom queen!

Dang!-- just found this thread-- sorry I missed the fun ---put another plus point in the Remington column --- have only fired umpteen thousand rounds through Remington’s -- guess I got lucky -- never ever a safety issue -- bolt handles all still on and extractors still work. Oh well!---
I would venture to say that most of the Big Green bashing is just simple BS by the Arm Chair experts – that own fancy Gun Safe Queens – my rifles (whole bunch of Remington’s) are working rifles – and that is what they are for.

woodmnctry,

I would suggest that your assessment comes from a fairly ignorant point of view. NOTE: I said ignorant, not stupid. The promoters of PF actions are the guys that have not hunted dangerous game, with one or two exceptions. The ones who call for a CRF model bolt action rifle on the other hand, include many who have hunted buffalo, and elephant and other dangerous game at close quarters. The basic 98 Mauser design was designed to operate 100% of the time under any weather conditions or situation. The consensus is that people who go to Africa to hunt things that can claw, or bite or stomp you to death in less time than it takes to tell about it; choose either Mausers or Double Rifles in large calibers.

Stupid would be the people who know better and still take a PF action-ed rifle DG hunting. It's like screwing the neighbor's wife. Much safer if you know he IS at work, instead of knowing he's at home and trying to sneak a "quickie" by crawling thru their bedroom window. The one is just more likely to get you killed than the other.

Rich
DRSS

UPDATE: I haven't updated in awhile and since there's been some activity here it goes: I am finding positives with all three rifles but the more I read, the further down the ladder the push feed Remington goes. The Winchester is actually starting to grow on me, but if I was going today, I would probably take the Ruger. The Ruger's recoil is noticeably less probably due to the straighter stock, heavier weight and Sims recoil pad, making it more enjoyable to shoot. I will continue to shoot all three for the time being, but I am getting close to selling the Remington. It is a beautiful rifle, it shoots great, but I am having a hard time getting over the push feed issue for Cape Buffalo. The Ruger and Winchester are close to a dead heat for me right now. Here's a dumb question: Is there a decent detachable ring set up I can put on the Ruger? I am not a fan of "Ruger Style" rings...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
woodmnctry,

I would suggest that your assessment comes from a fairly ignorant point of view. NOTE: I said ignorant, not stupid. The promoters of PF actions are the guys that have not hunted dangerous game, with one or two exceptions. The ones who call for a CRF model bolt action rifle on the other hand, include many who have hunted buffalo, and elephant and other dangerous game at close quarters. The basic 98 Mauser design was designed to operate 100% of the time under any weather conditions or situation. The consensus is that people who go to Africa to hunt things that can claw, or bite or stomp you to death in less time than it takes to tell about it; choose either Mausers or Double Rifles in large calibers.


Stupid would be the people who know better and still take a PF action-ed rifle DG hunting. It's like screwing the neighbor's wife. Much safer if you know he IS at work, instead of knowing he's at home and trying to sneak a "quickie" by crawling thru their bedroom window. The one is just more likely to get you killed than the other.

Rich
DRSS

Spud shooter -- you been drinking to much of your river water as usual -- you need to seperate the brown stuff out before you swallow --- in case you are wondering my Big Green rifles have been to Africa and guess what they didn't faint in the face of the OMG!!!! DG -- just went bang when they needed to -- and the little thingie came out the end of the barrel -- imagine that!

As to your second paragraph it would appear you have experience in this department -- now we know where your talents really lie.

This is ridicoulou, I love it when the REMMY folks come out to play. I know I don't have to worry about them buying up the better stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
This is ridicoulou, I love it when the REMMY folks come out to play. I know I don't have to worry about them buying up the better stuff.

404

Do they have modern rifles in OK ??------aren't most of you guys still using smoke poles down there??

Have read all the posts and as far as I am concerned MacD37 and Idaho Sharpshooter have both put forward the most compelling points of view.
Its the old story "it probably wont happen, but what if it does?"

Archer375,

To answer your question on scope rings, yes, Warne make rings for it. I'm with about 2 weeks or so of buying a Ruger RSM in 375H&H, and debating on going ahead and getting the 416Rigby setting next to it. I'll be using the Warne rings on my RSM, but haven't finalized scope choice yet. It will probably be either a VX-III 1.5-5 or Zeiss Conquest in a low power model. Gotta do some more research and get some opinions on the Conquest, course that's another can of worms like this thread. There'll be nashing of teeth and hell-fire raining down. I have to say that I am leaning toward the Loopy simply because it's American made and I have a long history with them. But Zeiss, unquestionably, does make a good product.

David

David...I've got Conquests on about 8 rifles and loopy's on a couple...I really like the Conquests...My .375 RSM holds a Burris Signature with an illuminated reticle...I may put on Conquest on the RSM as well, unless I really start getting used to the Burris...Thanks for the tip on the Warne Rings, I will definately check them out...Without doing much research, who for sure carries the Warne rings for Ruger's?