What 500 Grains said.

Archer 375,

I always think you should use the gun that fits you best, shoots the best and has been reliable for you. I have hunted dangerous game with a push feed Sako so the Rem 700 does not bother me.

That being said I would go for the Model 70 if it was my choice.

BigB

I had a Model 70 375 H&H Classic that had several problems:

First, you could load three rounds in the mag and close the bolt, then when the bolt was opened and pulled back the little bolt guide would hit the belt on the top cartridge and cause it to stove pipe the action. I never owned a pre 64 (but have a friend who has had several) and he never heard of this problem on them.

Secondly, the holes taped in the receiver were so out of line that I could not get any scope to zero.

My RSM feeds like a champ, shoots great, and since it’s now the only 375 I own it’s what would be going with me…………

Chalk up another vote for the Ruger….

Matt V

Having never hunted dangerous game, I would bow to the collective wisdom that has suggested the M70 and take it. On the other hand, since you have saidd that you handle the M700Rem better, I have to ask if maybe adding a centerfeed magazine from HS Precision might make the 700 a reliable option? Having read posts on this forums against the use of detachable magazines on DGR rifles, maybe most would be aginst this, but I figured I would ask anyways. It just seems that Archer_375 sounds more confident in the Remington. This, in my opinion, makes the question a little more uncertain. Confidence in the rifle can make a big difference, but how much when a critter wants to two-step you into a greasy spot isn't an answer I have.

As far as "confidence" goes, I really haven't handled each rifle enough yet...My opinions are based so far on "first impressions"...I'll be shooting these rifles a whole lot more in the months to come before making a final decision...I can say this, if it were not for the controlled feed advantage of the M70, it may very well NOT be an option at this point...It feels that clumsey in my hands right now...The Ruger would be much more attractive if it weren't TWICE the money of the other two...I don't think it is twice the rifle...The fact that the M70 feels clumsey at this point may simply be my inexperience with "BIG" rifles...If it were not 30 degrees BELOW zero today, I would be out getting more experience!

Vote update:

Rem - 1 Vote
Ruger - 2 Votes
Other - 4 Votes
Win M70 - 25 Votes

quote:

I can say this, if it were not for the controlled feed advantage of the M70, it may very well NOT be an option at this point.

FWIW.....the CRF feature is a highly desired feature by many on these forums, but it's not at all necessary nor is it extremely valuable. Yes it might help prevent a short stroke jam.....and that might help one avoid a goring.....but I'd hazard a guess that the airbags in your car are a thousand times more valuable than the CRF feature.

I've owned several push feeds in M-70 and M-700 and never ever had a problem with either. As a matter of fact they both were unbelievably reliable.....that said.....my .375 and .404 are both CRF!!!.....for totally different reasons!!!!...it's called resale....try to sell a M-70 pushfeed .375 H&H!

Vapor...I agree 100%, but you have to admit, slight as it may be, it is an advantage the M70 has over the other two...I've owned over 100 push feed rifles and have NEVER once had a feeding issue...With that said, I have also never had a Buff. bearing down on me, and if a guy was going to short stroke, that may very well be the time it happens...

archer_375,
Regarding your .375 H&H rifles, I am trying to understand your problem with the "clumsiness" of the M70:

Is this the "Winchester Model 70 Classic Safari Express," standard model, with butt-heavy-negative-drop walnut stock and a fairly heavy for caliber barrel, straight factory issue?

If so, I agree that Winchester stock is poor for iron sights, good for scope. IIRC, the Remington stock is a better compromise for irons and scope use.

Remington M700:
1) What is the bare/empty weight of the rifle?
2) At what point on the bottom surface of the rifle does it balance on your fingertip, i.e., where in relation to the front action screw head?

Winchester M70: Same two questions?

RIP...I'll get that info for you later this afternoon...Basically, the "clumsiness" is more "chunkiness"...I don't like a large grip...The M70 feels like I am holding a wood block...Yes, it is the standard factory Model 70 Safari Express...It has been bedded, had some trigger work done and had a Williamson Extractor installed...Don't ask me about the latter as I know nothing about a Williamson Extractor...AS far as balance goes, I think both rifles balance equally well for me and I think their weight is similar - close to 9.75 lbs. with a scope...

Another 31 vote's for the M70

Roland

By my count, only one person has any brains as to a good rifle versus the intrinsic value of a "classic". I wouldn't own a Winchester (pre or post 1964) if you gave it to me. I'd damned well sell it to these 31 other guys who love it and pay for my safari to begin with. The safety is a POS on all Winchesters and that "claw" extractor, touted as being the "only positive extraction" is too prone to damage and breaking. Though I'd probably go into debt to buy a Sako instead, I'd still take a Remington any day of any week of a Winchester.

george,

if you can document an old model 70 breaking a claw extractor you might be on Oprah's show the next week. I have never heard of that happening, so I asked my gunsmith. He said he hadn't either. That mauser-style claw extractor dates back over 100 years, and every war thru WWII featured them. On the other hand, I have personally seen about 30+ remington 700's go thru one shop here in Idaho in the past 20+ years. Not a lot, but enough that you couldn't make a living trading three remingtons for each OM70 you own. Was at the gunshow today, nobody was selling any remington 700-series for any kind of premium. Guys can't usually get within 30% of new retail prices. There WERE about forty old model 70's and everyone was priced over $600, two supergrades, for $2000 for a nice 30-06 and $3695 for an average 375H&H. IMHO, the only 700's with any resale value are the 720's. Just one man's opinion...but I bet about 98,7% of the AR posters agree with me, not you.

regards,

Rich
claw extractors, one of the few things in life you can count on

I'd take any one of the three, without hesitation, as long as I had used it a lot and was comfortable with it.

Most of the differences on paper (ie "in theory", not targets ) go out the window in reality, as each rifle is seldom as perfect as it should be and other more significant variables usually come into play.

JMHO,
Canuck

Model 70,
I put a McMillan on mine and it handles as good or
better than any other Rifle I own.
( 3 rem 700's, 4 sako's, 2 kimber's , 2 cz's. etc
Charlie

quote:

Don't know where you are, but if we have three dealers here in the Boise, Idaho, area who have CZ's on the rack; it can't be too hard for you to find one. Check out CZ's website and ask for a dealer near you with one in stock. I really like mine in 416 Rigby, and the 375 would be very close in weight and feel.

Rich

I have called CZ and asked for help finding a dealer that stocked the CZ 550 in a big bore, They were zero help. I called every dealer in Mississippi and southern TN without luck. Finally I found one at Cabelas in Kansas City MO. I held it side by side with a Mod 70. The CZ was very clubby, no way would I hunt with the CZ factory stock. The Mod 70 was better, but not great. The Mod 700 Custom Safari handles much nicer, points like a well made shotgun.

Dr B

Idaho
1973, Camden, Delaware, "Guns & Goodies", brand new, out of the box Winchester Model 70 in .300 Win Mag. Installed a Redfield Widefield scope, set it on the bench, chambered the very first round, fired it, extractor broke. First impressions last a lifetime. It will always be a POS to me as the $300 I paid at that time and my budget were BIG investments. I had to then wait 2 weeks for the dealer to agree to get it fixed and have a gunsmith replace it. I don't own anything but some ammunition and rain gear with Winchester printed on the label. Never will.

What Dr. B is saying makes sense to me...Owning both the M70 and Remington, I know exactly what he is saying...The Remington just feels/handles better...I am going to add the Ruger to the arsenal just to make things interesting...

George Roof,
The only damaged extractor on a model 70 I have ever seen was caused trying to use it as a push feed and not loading the round’s in the mag like you are suppose to.

Archer_375,
I think I understand that you think the Model 70 is clunky because the wrist is thicker than you like. That is often the case in big bore rifles. The reason is that most of the commercial makers use the same stock profile for all there big bores and the wrist is the weakest part of the stock. They tend to leave a little extra wood to handle the recoil in the bigger calibers. I think you could have a competent stock guy trim it down for you, or make a new stock. I like to use a synthetic stock for harsh hunting conditions and they can be made with a slimmer profile to. Well you could just shoot it and get use to it.
I under stand your frustration in trying to find a 375 CZ in your part of the world. You would probley think the CZ is clunky to. I like it because it is a 6 shooter. The wood on some of the CZ rifles can be pretty plain. I have ben involved in meetings with CZ people trying to get them to use better wood but they are a pretty hard headed bunch , That being said I have seen some better wood coming in on the 550 magnums and some really nice wood on the Safari magnums.
After all that rambling I would take the Model 70 because it is a control feed. Yes there are a lot of people who have never had a problem with there push feed rifles but when you have a Buff bearing down on you it isn’t the time to have your first ever problem. I feel it is a good thing to keep Murphy’s law to a minimum.
Bill

MODEL 70

i have to agree with george roof regarding the winchester model safety is a true piece of shit foisted on the gun buyers by winchesters lawyers.

unless you are used to queer movements when shouldering your rifle , or you carry it with your thumb/finger on the safety it is obvious to all that the safety swings the wrong way for a right handed shooter.

but then remember, this was brought to you by the same folks that were too cheap to build a magnum length action for the then new 458 magnum
and all the firing failures their "compressed loads" had. and can still have . rubbish.

probably the best thing was that all their stupidity finally caught up with them and they did the decent thing by going out of business.

ABSOLUTELY NO LOSS !

A 458WM in mod 70 will save the day and steal the show.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
i have to agree with george roof regarding the winchester model safety is a true piece of shit foisted on the gun buyers by winchesters lawyers.

unless you are used to queer movements when shouldering your rifle , or you carry it with your thumb/finger on the safety it is obvious to all that the safety swings the wrong way for a right handed shooter.

but then remember, this was brought to you by the same folks that were too cheap to build a magnum length action for the then new 458 magnum
and all the firing failures their "compressed loads" had. and can still have . rubbish.

probably the best thing was that all their stupidity finally caught up with them and they did the decent thing by going out of business.

ABSOLUTELY NO LOSS !

tomo577, this is the adults forum. If you search a bit the childrens forums are found elsewhere. You'll be much happier posting with folks your own age and intellect.

quote:

Bill Cooley

The only damaged extractor on a model 70 I have ever seen was caused trying to use it as a push feed and not loading the round’s in the mag like you are suppose to.
You would probley think the CZ is clunky to. I like it because it is a 6 shooter.

I think you could have a competent stock guy trim it down for you, or make a new stock. I like to use a synthetic stock for harsh hunting conditions and they can be made with a slimmer profile to. Well you could just shoot it and get use to it.

The wood on some of the CZ rifles can be pretty plain. After all that rambling I would take the Model 70 because it is a control feed. Yes there are a lot of people who have never had a problem with there push feed rifles but when you have a Buff bearing down on you it isn’t the time to have your first ever problem.

I feel it is a good thing to keep Murphy’s law to a minimum.
Bill

Bill
If you have to load your Mod 70 and CZ from the mag to keep from breaking the extractor then your CZ is a five shooter and your mod70 is a 3 or 4 shooter.

Why would anyone pay a good stock man to reshape a straight grain POS stock. Why try to turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

You are just as likley to have your first ever problem with the mod 70 as the Rem Murphy is no respector of CRF, or even double rifles. If you bought your Mod 70 in the last several years ie since they started making CRF again. You are verey likly to have problems Winchester had serious quality control prblems before they when out of bussiness. I just talked to a guy who had a customer that couldn't get his Mod 70 458win to shoot right, it turned out that the barrel was cross threaded. How that could happen I don't know? but it dosen't instll confidence for that Buff charge. I bought a Mod 70 last year that shoot patterens instead of groups greater than 3" at 100 yds. All it took was $800 gunsmith bill to get it to shoot.

Reminton has it's problems, most of which can be cured for $100 by adding a sako extractor.

Dr B

You guys are making a strong case for the Ruger and REmington...Seriously, unless this Winchester does miracles at the range in the acccuracy department, I'll be taking the Ruger or the Remington...

M70

CRF that works... sometimes you are moving pretty fast when you chambering a round. Nice to know you won't knock a cartridge about.

Safety that is easy to use and hard to get wrong under pressure.

Simple trigger that isn't likely to fail.

Argue as you want, but I will use my 375h&h against any game i the world. With confidence.

CZ550 in .375 H&H. Cabelas in LaVista NE has one with the "American" stock. My second choice would be a Ruger. Last Winnie M70 "Classic" I owned had a few issues, but it was a Featherweight.

Model 70 for me. Yes the express stock is a little chunky I still like it ( mine is a 416) I also have a 375 h&h and a 375 ultra plus a slew of other wininnes! If you dont like the wood stock sell it a get a Mcmillan or Hs stock.

I've taken my .375 H&H CRF Mod.70 Safari Express to Africa twice - flawless, deadly. For Buff I'd want something bigger. I carried a RSM in .458 Lott last September for that chore.

As for the CZ in .375. I bought one lured by the large mag and the set trigger. Unfortunately, It had a flaw in the barrel ramp which made it impossible to align a scope. I returned it to CZ. My buddy Mike has had Hell with a CZ he recently purchased.

With all that said, I would be indifferent between the Winchester and the Ruger. If neither price nor weight are an issue, I'd pick the Ruger.

One more vote for the Model 70

Since it was only -10 degrees today, I decided to buddle up and head to the range...Shot the Remington and Winchester...Like I said it was minus 10, snowing fairly heavy with about a 15 mph crosswind...IDEAL CONDITIONS Both shot 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards and under those conditions, I thought that was acceptable...The perceived recoil on the Winchester was worse than the Remington and I had a hard time getting my face comfortable on the Winchester...I am also not crazy about the safety on the Winchester...As it stands right now, I think I will be selling the M70...Do any of you 33 M70 voters want first crack at it before it goes to Gun Broker??? I am going to pick up the Ruger this weekend and start doing more of a one on one comparison with the Remington...

Updated vote totals (please don't audit the talley as I did it quickly)

Remington M 700 - 3 Votes
Ruger Safari Mag. - 3 Votes
Other - 5 Votes

Win. Model 70 - 33 votes!

Make one more tic in the model 70 Winchester column before you finalize the vote totals. Mine however, is in 416 Rem caliber.

You would be wise to take whichever weapon you have the most confidence in. If that happens to be the push-feed Remington 700, so be it. Remember, you'll have a PH backing you up should you contract buff fever and short stroke that 700. I doubt very much if HE will be carrying a 700, so you won't get stomped.

As long as we are making a tic in a column make mine the CZ. I owned a 458 from them for several years and liked it. I didn't use it on dg. Just hedge apples, steel pipes, targets, and some pop up targets from MGM. I can only guess I would like the 375 in the same rifle as much. I was quite fond of the set trigger and can see getting much use on it with an African plains game hunt. Good luck with your decision and God Bless. Packy

WELL,
SINCE so many learned and experienced people have castigated the Model 70 to the 7th layer of hell as a POS,
I will do the Christian thing and deliver you from its evil and give you $100.00 for that WORTHELESS DANGEROUS FAILURE CLUNKY ridden tent pole and I will even pay shipping.

Have owned Remington's my whole life and never have experienced any problems. They shoot well and have calibers from 220 swift to 416 Mag. Also own Sako's. Most are custom shop. Accurate and there's no reason for me to change. It's the man behind the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by LAWCOP:
WELL,
SINCE so many learned and experienced people have castigated the Model 70 to the 7th layer of hell as a POS,
I will do the Christian thing and deliver you from its evil and give you $100.00 for that WORTHELESS DANGEROUS FAILURE CLUNKY ridden tent pole and I will even pay shipping.

Hmmm... I'll give the same hundred bucks, pay shipping, and sign a letter releasing you of all liability if the firearm fails.

Put a "1" in front of those $100 offers and we have a deal...

quote:

Originally posted by archer_375:
Put a "1" in front of those $100 offers and we have a deal...

1 for a $100 offer and I pay shipping.

Is that a deal.

The one is in front of the 100.

Tell us when you break the extractor on the Remington, it shouldn't be long. When your extractor breaks and the buff is coming, you will be glad you have nice wood on the Remington. It will help out a ton to save your ass.

Now hold on just a minute. There's absolutly nothing wrong with a Remington as a DGR as long as you're a faster runner then the trackers or, in the case of buffalo hunting, can climb thorn trees faster than anyone else. Also be aware of anyone who calls a M70 a POS and says Remingtons are better! They're just trying to get you to sell your M70 to them...as a favor to you of course.

Done. $101.00 and I pay the freight.