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| one of us |
I spoke of this project a few weeks back. Had a chance to shoot 2 Weatherby DGR's. One was a 375H&H 2.5x8 Leupold in Leupold QR throw lefer mounts. The other a 458 Win. Mag with a 1.5x5 heavy duplex in Warne premier QD mounts. They were shot with iron sights and some with the scopes, at 25 and 50 yards.This was a familarization fire for some people who do not have any experience with rifles of heavier than "deer caliber" recoil. The rifles were fired about 60 rounds each, using both softs and solids. I fired 20+ rounds with each of them, more with the 458. Both had very mild recoil and were very comfortable to shoot. This is the softest recoiling 458 I have ever shot. [458,Federal factory 500 Trophy bonded softs and solids, 375, Federal 300 Nosler partitions and 300 Trophy bonded solids]. I even asked a couple of the other guys which rifle they thought kicked more. The 375 was a faster recoil, the 458 pushed you back farther. Both were very plesant to shoot. I will be able to keep track of these rifles and 2 more just like them, [not yet shot] and I will report their progress as shooting continues in the future. There were no failures to feed or eject, the rifles operated very smoothly. So far the rifles look ok. We will see how they do in the future. | ||
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| One of Us |
In my opinion, Weatherbys are not dangerous game rifles. | |||
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| one of us |
Not trying to start an argument here, but isn't anything you hunt dangerous game with by definition a dangerous game rifle? - Dan | |||
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one of us |
quote:I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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| one of us |
quote:NO!!!!!!!!! the caliber of the rifle is not the only thing that is involved in the makeing of a Dangerous Game Rifle! As 500 says, Weatherbys are not DGRs! | |||
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| one of us |
quote:You and 500 care to educate us a little further on that last statement? Must be a catch there somewhere! ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| One of Us |
A pleasant recoiling 458 after 20+ shots? Did it have a muzzle brake? H. C. | |||
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one of us |
Not to speak for the other posters but they are probably refering to them not being controlled round feed ala Mauser. Seems that most of the experienced dangerous game hunters prefer this type of action. The real key is that unlike a push feed even when you short stroke the bolt a Mauser style action will eject the case and pick up a new one. I don't worry about the rifle feeding in all sorts of odd positions since I will rarely get one in that position, and several articles in the past have tested push feeds and found they also feed upside down and sideways. I have seen a guy with a pushfeed action jam the rifle by cycling the bolt with the cartridge not fully seated. It wasn't dangerous since we were hunting blackbuck, he just got overly excited. Imagine how excited you could get with a ton of Cape Buff coming at you. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:I tell you where they are going. They are hung up on this controlled round feeding thing (which includes the fixed ejector fetish), and possibly the fact that no safety other than a 3 position Model 70 type is worth a damn. BS. | |||
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| one of us |
No muzzle break. I thought this would stir some people up, but... the facts are the facts. I was asked to recommend rifles for this project... I have owned 5 Weatherby's in the past [don't have any of them now so this is not a case of "what I have is best"] and I have never had a single malfunction, or any broken parts. I have had many other Magnum rifles including some high dollar custom rifles as well as info from other hunters I know. Also many of you on this form have detailed your problems with bolt rifles. This project required reasonably priced factory rifles in the calibers listed. The rifles will be fired a lot, they must hold up. They will be used in dangerous situations, they must work out of the box, no gunsmith attention at all. Based on many years experienced I considered them the best choice. Double rifles were not an option. ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} We will see how they do. What factory rifle would you pick? Remington 700 Never saw one that would feed 100% Winchester Mod 70 Looked at 6 rifles...all the front sights were crooked. CZ [and I like them] in big calibers break stocks. Whitworth in 375 & 458 did not feed, eject 100% Etc,etc,etc. I have NEVER seen a Weatherby malfunction or break. They have always shot good. With the constraints and requirements I had I could not find another choice I felt comfortable with. I welcome all coments, but give your reasons. | |||
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| One of Us |
Browning also makes a very reliable and accurate rifle that gets no respect. I like mine a lot. If I can get me a set of inversion boots cheap on eBay, I want to see whether my Browning will shoot upside down. That is the other big reason some DGR connoiseurs demand CRF rifles. They want to be able to shoot even if they are hanging upside down. H. C. ------------------------------------------------------ "Hey, it could happen." | |||
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| One of Us |
H. C. Push feeds will feed upside down. Actually the in line magazine used in the Wbys for the calibres based on the 378 case is perhaps the most controlled feed. The fact that Echols and others are supposed to be magicians at making M70 s and Mausers feed reliably clealry illusrates the difficulty to ultra reliable feeding that the staggered magazine causes. Mike | |||
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one of us |
I have a friend who has several Weatherby rifles and they all work perfectly. Accurate and no failures to feed etc. I have had Rem 700, Model 70 Winchesters and Mausers fail to function. The CRF versus push feed saga will go on forever. I myself do not buy it, but for dangerous game my choice is a double gun. BigB | |||
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| one of us |
Big B Thanks for the info. I agree with you on the doubles. What double do you shoot? | |||
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| one of us |
Browing Guy made an intersesting statement: "The real key is that unlike a push feed even when you short stroke the bolt a Mauser style action will eject the case and pick up a new one." By definition "SHORT STROKE" means the bolt was not pulled back far enough to either eject a spent round out of the chamber or feed a new round out of the magazine, It seems to me that if a mauser still ejected and stripped a new round than by definition it wasn't "short stroked" or am I missing something??? | |||
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one of us |
The only true CRF is a double rifle. I really do not buy the whole argument either. Aleko | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:If you chamber a round with a pushfeed, but you don't lower the bolt handle; the extractor will not have hold of the case rim. It is thus possible to pull the bolt handle back and leave the cartridge in the chamber. If you pull the bolt handle all the way back and try pushing it forward again, a cartridge from the magazine will go forward until it bumps into the cartridge you left in the chamber. That's the malfunction a CRF aficionado fears. At this point, the cartridge in front of the bolt face needs to be picked out by hand or dumped out by gravity. That generally entails pulling the bolt handle back. Now, if you just push the bolt handle forward, you have the same exact situation all over. So don't. You need to hold down the rounds in the magazine and get the bolt forward and get the handle down. Now, you can either shoot or extract the chambered cartridge, because lowering the bolt handle will have snapped the extractor over the case rim. I don't think this malfunction has anything to do with short stroking, and bolt guns don't eject from the chamber. H. C. | |||
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| one of us |
N E 450 No2, I have a Merkel in 470, test target from Merkel has both holes touching at 50 meters. I have yet to duplicate that but I can shoot the gun very well as can anyone else who shoots it. It has been to Africa twice and has performed with no trouble. It has over 200 rounds through it and is still as tight as new. BigB | |||
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| one of us |
raamw You are correct. Improper bolt manulipation can cause either type of bolt rifle to malfunction. Most feeding problems in magnum rifles happen because the shells "pop" out past the feed lips in the magazine. This can happen as you pull the bolt back or as you push the bolt foward Most bolt rifles use the same magazine geometry for several different cases. Belted cases seem to compound the problem in some rifles. Also these "new" fat cases can cause the same problems. In the CRF the case is "captured" by the bolt, under the extractor early in the closing cycle, which is thought to give more reliable feeding, not to mention more reliable extraction and ejection. Suffice to say both types must be timed correctly to feed properly. In my experience Weatherby's have always functioned properly. But a double rifle solves all these problems and a few others. | |||
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| <Axel> |
quote:N E 450 No2, the issue of the shell popping out from under the magazine lip AKA Porpoising can and does happen with CRF rifles too!! When it does they jam up REAL good. This jamming can be BAD BAD BAD if the operator is really pushing the bolt back to battery, as in the heat of action hunting dangerous game. Cartridges have actually been BENT ~ 90 deg in Mauser actioned DGR rifles due to this feeding issue!!! Axel | ||
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| <Rusty> |
I really don't see what the problems are with feeding in a Wheatherby rifle? My two have always fed flawlessly. Aren't all Wheatherbys made this way? ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Rusty We band of brothers! | ||
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| one of us |
Axel Your second post is correct. You have misunderstood my post or maybe I did not make it clear. "The cases popping out of the magazine" statement was meant for all bolt rifles. Also I stated that "in a CRF the case was captured by the bolt/extractor early in the bolt closing cycle and that this was THOUGHT to be more reliable."[by CRF devotees]. The two most reliable belted magnum bolt rifles I have used have been Weatherby's and Blaser R-93's. Blaser's will normally feed empty cases. On my 300Win Blaser the loaded round is @ 2 1/4" into the chamber before the case is turned loose by the magazine [ this will vary due seating depth] this may be more "controled" than the Mauser CRF. Plus the Blaser is straight line feed, as ar the big Weatherby's [378 case size]. I had a custom 416 Sako 416RM that was also straight line feed. Problem was with three locking lugs the ejector was in the wrong place causing the case to hit the scope windage adj knob and fall back into the action. For a bolt gun to work it has to be designed right and made right. Does not seem like many factory or custom rifles are. Do not give me that story about starting the bolt foward, stopping and jearking it back, because you are nervous. If you cannot work a bolt under pressure, hunt with a double, then even if you are too nervous to reload, you will get two shots at least. Or maybe you just better play checkers. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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one of us |
Love those CRF Weatherbys!  | |||
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| one of us |
NE 450, as i remember wern't you working on some project for Dallas PD? are these the rifles chosen? | |||
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| one of us |
Dave this is a combined project with two different entities. These were the rifles chosen. | |||
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| one of us |
Big B Sounds like a good double. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Rusty & fla3006 Nice Weatherby's what is the calibers of those perfect made DGR rifles Brevex or FN actions? When were they made? One one the most important part to getting a mauser to feed correctly is to have the right magazine box for it, an incorrect box will never function properly. For me the only dgr's is mauser 98's bolt actions preferably ZG-47, Brno m-21 or a Obendorf, Simson, Sauer&Sohn or Sempter Kreighoff. A good double would be bad either ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} / JOHAN | ||
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| one of us |
quote:raamw, SHORT STROKING Is the exact opposite of your defination! The problem is a person getting in a hurry, and failing to completely chamber a round, then retract the bolt! This is the exited mind thinking faster than the hands, thinking about getting as many rounds in the air as fast as they can, but leaving out a step or two in the exitement! The CRF action will simply have ejected the round held by the bolt, and pick up a new round from the magazine. If, in fact, one fails to pull the bolt back far enough to eject that round, it will simply go back into the chamber when the bolt is pushed forward. These short shifting sittuations always happen AFTER the first shot! With a push feed system, the first round will be left in the loading port, and a new round picked up on the way to battery, now you have two rounds in the vieing for one chamber. Not good. The very sarcastic post about shooting while standing on your head, or swinging from a tree by your feet, is simply silly! There are many times when a rifle must be cycled while the rifle is not the right way up. My dad always carried his rifle with the chamber empty, till the moment of truth, then slip a round in the chamber. He was hunting with a borrowed Rem 700 7mm Rem Mag, for Muledeer. As he bent at the waist to his right to look around a bush to see where the buck was, he similtaineously tried to chamber a round in his rifle. I was watching from the ridge with binocs, and saw the round fall from the ejection port, and him closeing the rifle on an empty chamber. Now that Muledeer wasn't going to hurt anyone, and the loud "CLICK", did no harm. Had that been a lion, and a charge had insued, that click, would have made quite a bit of difference. "WATCHA THANK?" If he had been useing a CRF action the round would have been chambered, instead of lying on the ground! The use of CRF, or PF actions is a personal thing, and no law requires you to use one or the other. That fact does, in no way, make the PF action as relaible as the CRF action. It is my opinion, one should make a rifle, that is to be used for hunting animals that have the where-with-all, to take issue with being shot, as relaible as it is possible to make it. A push feed rifle, no matter the chambering, is not a proper DGR! Weatherby used to make real DGRs, with FN actions, but the bean counters won out, the shooting public lost out! ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
Johan, my Weatherby is a 460 (the 3rd made) on a Brevex action, before they introduced the Mark V. | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:The Browning A-bolt is unreliable and inaccurate. If yours has not broken and shoots well, then sell it before the tide turns!! | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:See what I mean? | |||
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| one of us |
I have one of 5 CZ O/U 458 Win Mag double rifles sold in the US as model #589. It is the very definition of the dangerous game rifle, with 22 inch bbls and a long tapered throat allowing for seating bullets as far out as you want. Although it weighs 9.5 pounds it is very short and fast, and goes into battery with the safety OFF. This is a must for any DG double as you can't fool with a safety when you need to reload and fire quickly. It ejects both spent cases well over your shoulder, and is quite easy to fire 4 times in 4 seconds on target. There is sufficient drop at the heel to keep your head up when using the low iron sights, also important in a DG rifle. I have Hawk Bullets cut cannelures from .030 to .040 back so they can be secured when seated out, and it duplicates the 458 Lott in this configuration. The 600 gr Hawks do 2150 fps with AA 2460, leaving nice rounded primers and loose extraction at a COL of 3.7 inches. When both barrels are used to fire 4 rounds, it prints inside a 3 inch circle at 150 meters, exactly what the target CZ shiped with the rifle indicated. Alas, it has never been used in the hunting field, in spite of several offers from a Park Ranger friend on the Kenai to buy it. Given that it is no longer in production, the investment potential has it more or less retired. So, here it sits with only 60 rounds through it... Does anyone know what this rifle might be worth? My ranger friend is now in southern IL, and I am thinking about selling it. | |||
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| one of us |
Dang,last time I checked,all my Weatherbys- A)Feed 100% reliably B)Hold their zero well C)Are accurate as all get out D)Kill game REALLY dead Yup,pretty horrible rifles eh? Brian. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sabot, It sounds like a nice setup. I don't want to nit pick your rifle; I do wonder whether anybody gives you crap about your double rifle taking a belted rimless cartridge rather than a rimmed cartridge. If someone is worried that a bolt gun will malfunction simply because it is a push feed, or because it is chambered for a rebated rim cartridge like the 425 Westley Richards, that person is bound to be concerned that your extractors will slip over the heads of your empties and leave you pressed in the ele tracks. I'm going to dig an old chinning bar out of the closet and hang by my knees. I am guessing that my Browning will feed upside down. Then, after my gunsmith un-does a mess of a brand new Classic Safari Express Model 70, I'll see whether CRF does any better. I'm not even sure the test is necessary. Mike375 lives in Australia. He ought to know whether they will feed upside down. H. C. | |||
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| <allen day> |
I like Weatherby rifles for the most part. I do have some reservations about certain design features, but every Weatherby rifle I've ever owned fed well and functioned well. The only other push-feed actions I've owned that have fed as well have been the few older-version Sakos I've had. And yes, a few African PHs have and do use Weatherby Mark Vs as working rifles, mostly in .460 WBY. And yes, there are PHs who have and do use push-feed Remington 700s, post-64 Model 70s, and first-version Ruger 77s. I've heard one first-hand report from an African PH who had experienced a near-disaster due to a feeding problem with a Remington 700, but that's the only such horror story I've heard. Personally, I do strongly prefer controlled-feed actions for my own dangerous game rifles, particularly if they've been reworked and fine-tuned by an expert riflesmith who really and truly does understand all aspects of proper feeding. The vast majority of all PHs I've spoken to also prefer CF actions for bolt-guns. But a poorly-adjusted CF action can be just as disfunctional as an out-of-sinc PF. The difference lies in the potential of the CF action. Once properly adjusted, the CF will feed and otherwise function under all conditions (especailly dust African conditions) better than any PF action that's out there in my experience. Come to think of it, I can't think of any good reason NOT to choose a CF action over a PF. The guys who seem to grouse the most the the concept of CF seem to either not know any better, or else want to keep things cheap. None of the gunstore clerks around here who have made light of the CF concept have ever been to Africa, have never hunted dangerous game anywhere, and are unlikely to in the future. AD [ 06-15-2003, 20:51: Message edited by: allen day ] | ||
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| <Axel> |
Allen, how do you accomodate the differences in rim thicknesses and groove widths into your tuning of a CF action? I know no competent gunsmith anywhere who will state that they can make a mauser type action feed ALL makes of brass!!! They DO say that they can get a mauser type action to feed ONE brand of brass like greased sh!t though!! The push feed does not suffer this problem. BTW, it is a WELL documented fact that push feed handle dirt build up better!! The documentation I am speaking of is of military origin. Various militaries of the world have concluded, Germany included, that the controlled feeding of the mauser system is significantly susceptible to feeding malfunctions due to dirt ingestation!! You can search it up on the web if you do not believe me. You could also just pack one of you CF rifles full of mud and see how well that Mauser claw grabs that cartridge rim, be warned though, IT WON'T!! The push feed will push it out of the magazine and deposit the round and the mud right into your chamber !!!Axel | ||
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| one of us |
Well the topic was more or less about CRF vs. PF on a dangerous game rifle. This leads one to talking about real differences between the two. The real difference is that a PF can easily jam when you do not fully seat a round ( I call that short stroking but apparantly some of you have a "Official Dictionary of Gun Stuff" that I don't have), the CRF will eject the round when you retract the bolt and pick up a new one. Now I'm assuming that the action has been set up by a competent gunsmith or a decent factory. All the BS about feeding seems to be just that, any PF or CRF can be set up to feed poorly, all it takes is a poor gunsmith. My belted mag and unbelted Mauser actions all feed perectly, every time, every brand of ammo I've tried, no excuses. If your rifle doesn't do that it's a poorly put together rifle. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Axel, rim thickness can be critical for certain cartridges, no question of it, not to metion properly dimensioned magazine boxes. Cartridges like the .300 Weatherby come to mind. Remington's .300 WBY brass has a significantly different rim thickness that Norma-made .300 WBY brass. The riflesmiths I know who make ultra-precise .300 WBY rifles on CF actions will often work up loads with these two makes of brass, choose the one that shoots the best, then set the extractor gap AFTER load experimentation is done. Simple! If a client shoots only factory ammo in .300 WBY., and the Weatherby (Norma) stuff shoots well, then the extractor gap is set for that. The more standard chamberings don't seem to suffer from this problem. I have .300 Winchester, .338 Winchester, .30-06, .270 Win., .375 H&H, and .416 Remington custom rifles built on CF actions that'll feed any brand of factory ammo or brass you care to try in them without a hitch or a burp. Proof enough, in my estimate, especially since I've hunted with them (collectively) under all climatic conditions and I've fired thousands of rounds through them without the slightest malfunction. Off-beat, no-standardized cartridges can offer some challenges in this department, which is yet is another good reason not to select weird cartridges for serious hunting use. The virtues of controlled-feed actions have been well established for over 100 years, and if some cowboy's got some agenda in mind that includes trying to sell the concept that a PF feeds better than a CF, I won't be a buyer of his wares. Read engineer Stuart Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action", and pay particular attention to his section on the Remington 700. He discusses but a few of the shortcomings of that action for sure feeding under all conditions, plus study also his sections on the Mauser 98 and pre-64 Model 70 for comparison. Read also "The Class of '98" by Terry Weiland. AD | ||
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| <Rusty> |
My two rifles, .300 & .257 Whby. Mags. were built on FN actions when Roy's operation was in Southgate. My Aunt and Uncle traveled to California, met Roy and were custom fitted for the rifles. They are a joy to shoot. | ||
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