Anyone got case specs on the 400HH yet? Are any of the die makers producing dies for the new round?

Roger QSL

Roger,

The latest thing I had from Holland was they have submitted the cartridge design to CIP for certification.

I assume that means they have supplied cartridges to the London Proof House Laboratory for pressure measurement, although I do not know that.

I have not heard that Holland has released drawings for either the maximum cartridge or the minimum chamber.

jim dodd

Jim,

Thanks,

Roger QSL

500grains,

The management level folks I talk to at Holland say that they are going to release these cartridges to the trade.

To date they have released only photographs of the cartridges because they might make changes in the body shape. They have made one with the position of the shoulder of the .400 H&H as part of their shooting evaluation of the cartridge. They don't want to release the drawings prematurely.

Once again beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Do you beat on other rifle makers with the same level of diligence, or do you reserve it for Holland?

I have a friend who buys such rifles, only his are Westley Richards. He buys his ammunition once a year from them, and has them send the bill to his accountant so he doesn't have to read the details.

jim dodd

HJ,

I am far more cynical than you regarding H&H and its motives, for sure. I know how efficient and quick it is for a private citizen to produce a wildcat, so if it takes a well-funded concern like H&H several times longer to do the same thing, I think my suspicions are justified. It is certainly not due to H&H using modern feature in its cartridges, because the 400 and 465 H&H are poorly laid out according to current norms.

You gentlemen have me curious. What IS known about this cartridge, rimmed ? belted ? ballistics ? Does it offer any advantage over the 416 Rem. ?
Does anyone know from where H&H gets there mauser actions ?
Best

[ 11-20-2002, 02:06: Message edited by: Kboom ]

500grains,

The cartridges do bear Holland's design mark as exemplified by the .375 H&H. From looking at the cartridges (which I have done) and the photos on the Internet, you can see H&H without having to look at the headstamp.

I know people who claim to have "designed" wildcat cartridges, several gun writers are among that crowd. All are exemplified by the fact that they have done no engineering design work on their new cartridges. They are concerned only with perhaps chrono readings of their reloads.

I have been talking to Holland for going on a year now about their process, including interviewing their Technical Director at SCI in Las Vegas. By American wildcat standards, they are slow indeed. But they are not doing a wildcat that can be thrown away if something is not correct (which reminds me for some reason of Col Charles Askins and his flock of left handed rifles chambered for 8mm wildcat cartridges).

Napolean said "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"....

They are slow, but they want to get it right.

Now I keep getting reports from Dr. Don Heath in Zim about Remington .416 Rem Mag ammunition with way too high pressure "hunting in the hot". Maybe they were too quick.

jim dodd

Jim,

If they do it as right as there 375, there rounds will be around as long as we are allowed to hunt. The prospect of a 40 caliber, based on the 375, backed by a renowned firm such as Holland And Holland, should really take off. If you get any thing from them, such as case specs, please "E" me.

Thanks,
Roger

HJ,

Several points seem to have escaped H&H's design staff:

1. Case taper results in stretched cases, more case trimming, short case life, and more bolt thrust. But they designed their new cases with lots of case taper, obviously to make them look like a 375 H&H. This is obviously a marketing ploy at the expense of more sound mechanical design.

2. Belts are just not needed, and some feel belts are a negative.

3. H&H trying to fill a niche that is way overcrowded already. Again, the new cartridges are for marketing purposes.

If H&H were trying to "get it right", they would be going a different route.

On another topic, Remington's problem with the 416 is that they sought to make it match the Rigby, which is just not realistic considering the case capacity.

500grains,

I have answered your points before in a different thread; since you didn't see them I will repeat here.

Case taper is used to improve both feeding and extraction. It is considered by Holland more important in a dangerous game rifle than the number of reloads.

The belt is primarily for headspace control; here it allows the case taper.Belted cases are a form of rimmed case which happen to feed better from a staggered magazine than a wider, narrow rim. I think those who feel belts are a negative did not understand what they are for.

Bolt thrust is primarily determined by chamber pressure and cross-sectional area of the cartridge case; a secondary factor is the frictional force holding the case in the chamber on firing. Thrust will be the same as the .375 H&H, a cartridge not known for wrecking actions.

Winchester jumped into a totally crowded .30-caliber niche with its .300 WSM. Others are piling in too.

The .400 H&H's competition are the .416 Remington, .416 Weatherby and the .416 Rigby. Not too crowded, especially considering that the Holland cartridge is intended to operate at lower pressure and deliver "enough" velocity. Of those three, the real competition is with the .416 Rigby, as both are intended to be low-pressure cartridges. The Rigby requires the next size up in actions.

Holland's definition of "right" and your definition of "right" are not the same, so it is not surprising they are taking a different path. Both paths are "right" if you will.

I am a graduate engineer myself, although my specialty is not firearms (it is my avocation).

jim dodd

[ 11-21-2002, 01:53: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

HJ,

The 404 Jeff is the real competition for the 400 H&H. Really, the 400 H&H is just a 404 jeff with a rim.

I disagree with the implication that there is value in a tapered case to help with extraction. If the round is not overpressured, no such help with extraction is necessary. The 416 Rigby has little case taper and a sharp shoulder, and those cases extract just fine even at rather high pressure. The flip side of a tapered case helping with extraction is that it increases bolt thrust.

I also disagree with the concept that tapered cases help with feeding. Any competent big bore gunsmith can get the straight walled cases to feed wonderfully. A tapered case will only help if the rails and ramp are defectively set up so that the cartridge does NOT center on the chamber as it leaves the magazine. Further, it is more difficult to get tapered cases to stay firmly under the rails, hence pop-ups are more likely. But again, competent big bore gunsmiths solved that problem long ago. So the folks at H&H should not need to rely on a tapered case to achieve proper feeding.

Indeed, if smooth feeding was what H&H was looking for, then they would not have included a belt. A 404 jeff would have met their criteria in that regard better than the 400 H&H design will.

From all appearances, the 400 H&H is a marketing gimmick and does not address any need or deficiency in the field in light of the availability of the 416 rigby and the 404 jeffery. Perhaps the technique will workif H&H's customers are more interested in brand than in technical performance. I do not know the high end rifle market very well, but I will speculate that most people who spend $50K+ for a factory rifle do not reload, and will not recognize or concern themselves with the relative advantages of one cartridge offering over another.

Personally, I think that H&H is putting their customers at a disadvantage by sending them into the field with a rifle that cartridges cannot be found for except for a store in London and a store in NYC. If the client were carrying a 416 rigby or a 404 jeffery, then a bit of scrounging would turn up ammo in places like Zimbabwe, RSA, or Tanzania. No such luck with an odd factory round or a wildcat. Since the performance on game of the 400 H&H versus the 404 jeff or 416 Rig will be indistinguishable, I do not think that the client is well served by that offering. If the new cartridge offered some performance not available from a common caliber, I would view the matter differently.

In contrast, if I we were talking about hunting elk in colorado or bear in alaska, I see no problem in taking an oddball cartridge. If the client's ammo is lost, it is not a big inconvenience to stop in to the Anchorage or Denver Wal Mart and pick up a new rifle and ammo to match it.

IF this round is chambered in a lot of rifles, I suspect H&H will arrange to have ammunition available in at least one shop in any country where safaris are offered.

Getting to that ammunition may be a problem, but that's the chance you take with any new round.

BTW, unless the American market accepts this round (and vthe .465H&H) instantly, I doubt there are enough hunters and shooters worldwide to support its continued existence for long. That's not puffery or jingoism, just my honest opinion.

This is such a small niche, that only the large American market seems able to sustain all these big-bore cartridges.

George

500grains,

In another thread you opined that the .450 Dakota is the best of the .450 bores.

To me, all of the complaints that you make against the probable availability of the .400 H&H are equally true of the .450 Dakota, but you like the Dakota cartridge, and you dislike Holland and their cartridges. So which company better serves their customers?

When push comes to shove, Holland has to succeed in its marketplace, and its customers will vote on that with their $ or euros or whatever.

The .375 H&H has been a wonderful success, and it has killed everything that walks on the earth. If we neck it up to .411 and load a Woodleigh 400 grain bullet to about 2,350 fps, how can that be a bad cartridge?

The .404 Jeff is no longer chambered, except on a custom basis, and ammunition is barely available. So the .400 H&H should be able to compete with that standard.

How about a little contest? You get some CZ 550 Safari rifles and have them modified to .500 Jeff and .505 Gibbs and sell them for a year. Then you compare your revenue to Holland's for a year of .400 H&H sales, and see who is ahead.

George,

Your points are well made and taken. But unless Holland gets with it and gets them out there in the market, it will be moot anyway.

jim dodd

HJ,

The 450 Dakota does not have a belt or a tapered case, the two primary flaws with the 400 H&H.

Further, the 450 Dakota offers those who want it a true 2400 fps at low pressure. The lott, for which ammo is generally available, does not.

404 jeff is just barely available in the US, but in countries like ZIM and RSA you can find it. Not necessarily in a store, but if you need it, a bit of asking around will turn up someone who has a 404 and will part with the ammo. Not so with a 400 H&H, not is it likely to ever be so.

I have no doubt that H&H can sell a few hundred thousand dollars worth of rifles in these oddball calibers. But that's just marketing, not sound engineering. If someone went into the business of offering an off the shelf cz550 in 500 jeff or 505 gibbs, they would certainly sell many times more rifles than H&H would, although H&H would likely have greater revenue from their sales.

Do you know how long it is taking for H&H to fill a custom rifle order these days?

500grains,

You wrote:

"I have no doubt that H&H can sell a few hundred thousand dollars worth of rifles in these oddball calibers. But that's just marketing, not sound engineering. If someone went into the business of offering an off the shelf cz550 in 500 jeff or 505 gibbs, they would certainly sell many times more rifles than H&H would, although H&H would likely have greater revenue from their sales.

Do you know how long it is taking for H&H to fill a custom rifle order these days?"

At the SCI Convention last March Holland was quoting one year for the .400 H&H at a price in the $23,000s. Since I am more interested in building my own, I have not paid attention to their delivery after receipt of order.

There is at least one rifle builder in the US who will build a dangerous game or large caliber rifle on the CZ action. See for example the American Hunting Rifles DGR for $3,495:

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/

I don't know what their sales are with respect to Holland's, but the custom rifle market is not for the faint of heart.

You have mentioned engineering practice in more than one post; what flavor of engineer are you?

jim dodd

Anything new from HH about their 2 new loadings?

Roger QSL

Roger,

All quiet on the English front. It is holiday season over there too.

jim

/

Jim,
I have a LH 700 Remington in 7mm Mag, is the action long enough to handle the proposed 400HH?

I know the case specs are not available yet, but the parent case, the 375, is chambered in the 700. Wasn't sure if the slug, due to it's length would pose a problem.

Still waiting for HH to release info regarding their new cartridge.

Roger QSL

A couple of "experts" decide the belt is bad, then print taper is bad in a case...Pure conjuncture that became a run-a-way train IMO.

Now I am not directing this post at any one individual such as 500 grs. whos judgment I respect greatly or any of the others who are proponents of the non-belted case..I am merely stating the other side of the coin.

The belted 375 has one heck of a track record and a tapered case feeds very well indeed, but more importantly it will not stick in a chamber and it ejects cases like poop thru a goose...Now that cannot be all bad...

I like my big bore DGR to do just that, I can sacrifice the effiency of the straight walled case that hugs the chamber walls and was designed by bench resters and its additional velocity that tends to deform solids and stop penitration...A good example of hype at the highest level is the RUM, Dakota et al.

I will still take a 404 Jefferys case to all these new rounds off the Jefferys case for that reason alone. I have an electric drill for trimming cases so thats a no issue here, plus I don't shoot my big bores all that much..Mostly I just hunt with them.

I am in the minority on this I am sure of that, but 50 years or less from now (when all the belted cases are gone) these same doomsday sayers of the belted case, will come out with this wonderful new and ingenious discovery, a belted case, and praise it highly and tell of all its merits and the general public will fall in line once again, so goes the gun business.

All that said, I suspect the 375 H&H will be with us when all the others have fallen out of favour with the fickled minds of the American gun nut, who falls victim to every little two bit add campaign and the golden words of some prejudice well know gunnysmit or gunwriter of great wisdom...

I am with Ray on the virtues of the H&H case, enough so that I am building a .400 H&H. My Montana Rifleman M99 RH .532" bolt face action is ready to ship real soon now. The other major parts are a Krieger barrel and a Acra-Bond laminated walnut stock. I expect to take this rifle on my next buff hunt.

Russell, are you going to jump on the LH M99 action deal that Rod has posted? I signed up for one to do a left hand prototype for my PH rifle project.

jim dodd

Well said Ray.

I'll bet that the 400 H&H can be made to feed better in a rebarreled 375 H&H rifle than most any other caliber you can choose. Not having to fiddle around with rails and magazine followers is almost enough reason to consider it by itself.

A tapered case like a 400 HH will only feed better than a sharp shouldered case if the gunsmith is incompetent and cannot get the case to center over the chamber before entry. I would suggest choosing a competent gunsmith to assure proper feeding.

500grains,

From your own arguments in the past about the virtues of your sharp-shouldered case and the supposed faults of the H&H case, your favorite case design must, of necessity, extract less well than the Holland design.

Engineering design decisions are mostly about economics, and your cost calculus is your own. Others have their own tally of costs, and will come to different decisions.

The fact that their decision is not yours is just not material.

jim dodd

500,
So what about extraction or a near seperated case or just a slightly stuck case, you gonna rewrite the rule to satisfy your opinnion on that one too...No flame, just a gentlemans arguement.

OH HORSE FEATHERS!

The 400 H&H is just a stupid marketing stunt! Another "me too" that is just designed to take advantage of snobs with big purses.

What can it possibly offer that the 416 Remington does not already have, other than a new headstamp and a +20K rifle to sucker the snobs with?

Ditto the 465 H&H or whatever garbage they call the one based on the 460 Weatherby case.

Pros And Cons,

Well let see...1932-2002, 70 years. Pretty good span of time. The 375HH is still with us.

If there would have been an internet, gun mags, or groups of hunters discussing this round when it first appeared, it would have gotten the same responses the new HH rounds are getting.

I'm not a wealthy snob nor a DG hunter, I'm just one of the many fellows who enjoy the shooting sports. From an amateurs view, these rounds appear to have great potential for their intended design. For me, blastin caps at the range, and for the serious head hunter, they look to have what it would take to do the job.

Let's give them a chance. Let's see in 70 years where they are in the cartridge lineup.(Assuming guns are still allowed then).

My own guess is, the 375,400, and 465 Holland And Holland will be selling to the gun enthusiast in the furure.

Who knows, maybe the Dakota, Weatherby, Rigby, Lott, and the rest of Big Bore Clan will also be around. Let's hope.

Geez, I hope this doesn't me burned again.HI

Roger QSL

Slingster,
What does that have to do do with the cartridge design? Choose Federal ammo or load your own. It is a lot less trouble to do this than to buy a +20K rifle and ungodly priced factory ammo from H&H.

Most would end up reloading the 400 H&H ammo, and one can do that just fine with a 416 Remington Magnum.

MORE HORSE FEATHERS!

Roger,
Wasn't that 1912-2002, 90 years?

RAB,

Yup, I believe your right.

The gray between my ears, is not not a heavy as the gray on top of my ears.HI

Roger QSL

See there how powerful the .400 H&H cartridge is; even its concept has the power to inflame minds! Wow.

Oh by the way, Eric's 60 cm Blaser barrel is 23.6", so that Remington .416 Mag ammunition must be a very high pressure load.

jim dodd

Mickey1,
Touche' for you! I still like the 416 Rigby better, but the 416 Remington Magnum is way cool compared to a 400 H&H, the latter cartridge of which I can only say: PEEYUU!

HunterJim,
Remington has had a problem with some lots of their ammo being too hot in even the 375 H&H Premium Safari line with Swift A-Frame bullets, to hear tell from some of the members here. The boxes of it that I have gotten have been just fine. I suspect some of their runs of 416 Remington Magnum ammo have had similar quality problems.

This in no way impunes either the 375 H&H or the 416 Remington Magnum cartridge designs.

This is a Remington ammo factory problem. Maybe they are taking pointers from the Weatherby factory.

Even though I don't currently "shoot" a big bore I think I'd listen to Ray and Jim. Is there someone on the board who knows more than almost 100 years of PH's?

I did shoot my current biggest bore that I actually hunt with this weekend. A 338 Win Mag Dumoulin. Belted case and all the score is Dumoulin 1 - Elk 0. Now to sort out a few hundred pounds of sausage.

MORE HORSE FEATHERS! And kissing up.

Dagga,AKA Horsefeathers,
Calm down, your gonna be OK, take a nap, get some rest, your just messed up in the head again..you know the headaches and hot flashes....Take a bottle of Aspirin. Your in a change of life pattern...

Your absolutly right the 416 will do anything the 400 will do, Jim and I know that, everybody knows that, it goes without saying, you didn't just discover that.

A 400 H&H isn't uppity at all, one does not have to buy a Holland, he can just buy a reamer. It will work without alteration in a 416 Rem action and cases can be made from 300 and 375 or 416 brass...so see how easy it would be to own one..

They are all just toys to please us, otherwise we would ALL just hunt the world with 375 and forget all the rest.

So behave your bad self! suck up, get a life, don't be so darn bossy