I have a (I think) model 1886 Winchester leveraction chambered to .45-90 (yes, the original chambering as marked on the barrel.

My question: Can I shoot .45-70 ammo in this gun?

The answer is yes, it will shoot. But you should absolutely not do it.

Flat out do/don't statements without explaining WHY, do not always fly.

If you research the history 0f the Winchester 1886.45-90 you will see that they were usually used to shoot.45-70 ammo of the period whenever 45-90 ammo was not available.
In modern Miroku-made 1886 45-90 rifles, any commercial 45-70 ammo is safe - I have done it and will continue to do so in my Miroku 1886 whenever it is appropriate. It is like shooting .22 shorts and long lammo in a .22 longrifle chamber (or like .38 special in a ,357 mag revolver).
Naturally, cleaning the chamber after shooting a lot of such shorter case ammo makes sense.
All the usual ammo safety rules still apply.

This topic has been beaten to death for years over on Leverguns.com and I documented it thoroughly when I first bought my .45-90 and began loading for it.
Enjoy your .45-90 and be safe doing it.

And sharpsguy has more experience with these rifles and calibers than most. Let's hope he comes back in and clarifies.

In my Winchester days I shot .45-70 in .45-90s on a regular basis. Because of the magazine stop '86s will cycle the shorter cartridge with no modifications. (In the '73 and '76 the cartridge length can't vary).
No difference than firing a 2 3/4" shot shell in a 3" chamber.
I, too, am curious to know the logic as to why not. crshelton's view seems to be correct in the .22 and .38-357 logic. I seem to remember in older catalogs that the practice was OK'ed and even encouraged. I seem to recall accuracy may be a issue as the rifling twist was different with a 405-grain bullet compared to a 300-grain bullet.
Interested to learn more.
Cal

I had an old Sharps replica in 45-120. Shot 45-70s in it for years. It would get a residue build up in the chamber so a good cleaning was needed before I could simply drop a 45-120 in it.

as well

Cal,
IIRC, the early 45-90 rifles twist was intended to stabilize 300 grain bullets, but the Miroku repros have a 1/22 inch twist (as measured by myself)that stabilizes the 300 400 + grain bullets.
Accuracy in my rifles is the same for 300-450 grain bullets.
I have shot the Cowboy Action 500 grain round nose 45-90 ammo intended for Sharps by loading one at a time and they have a rainbow trajectory, but what is the fun in that? Especially compared to 300 grain Nosler PP at 2600 fps woo-hoo!

Whitworth--You have my phone number, call me. Either that or pm your number to me. I'm not going to post three pages to try to eradicate 30 years of malpractice and misinformation that these guys have built up and argue with them about it.

Why post on a reloading forum if you don't want to post that sort of information? I, for one, would really like to learn what you have to say. I have a .45-70 I am thinking about having rechambered to .45-90, in part, so I can shoot both cartridges in it interchangeably. I won't argue with you because I have zero experience with the .45-90. I am sure there are many other members who feel the same way.

are we saying that if one chooses to use .45-70 brass to fire in the .45-90, he should reload the 300 grain bullet as the rifling twist won't stabilize the longer 400+ grain bullet?

Sorry I was hoping to learn something new.

I do not agree with sharps guy at all, if he is implying any safety problems. As stated above, the original 45-90 was an Express cartridge, and had a slow twist specifically for 300 grainers, and would not stabilize the 405s and 500s of the 45-70.
Modern 45-90s have fast twists, so, will. Now, your bullet will have a gap to go through in the chamber, but there is no safety risk in shooting them.
It is nothing like shooting a 22 short from a 22 LR: remember that .22 chambers are bullet size; here, they aren't. So the bullet will float a bit. And with black powder and soft lead bullets, it will bump them up to chamber size and then back down to barrel size; I don't recommend that.
Having said that, there is no reason to shoot 45-70s in a 45-90 short of an emergency. It provides no benefit.
Now, if you have a 45-70, and wish to re-chamber to 45-90 (2.4 inch), that will work.
If sharps guy has anything to add, he should do it here.

You don't think that bumping up a bullet that has a diameter of .458 to a chamber diameter of .483 or so and shoving it unguided down a throat for .300 or so and then jamming it back down to .458 won't cause a pressure spike and destroy accuracy? At least you recognize the specious argument that shooting a 45-70 in a 45-90 chamber is the same as a 22 short in a 22 long rifle chamber, as the chamber designs and leades are completely different. The bullets themselves are different as the 22 is a heeled bullet designed to shoot in that particular 22 chamber. The issue is not in the least about barrel twist--it is about chamber design.

A little knowledge can be dangerous, and you of all people should know better than that.

Sharpsguy

I view you and dpcd both feel the soft bullet expanding to fill the chamber as not a good thing.

Do you view the original and replica in the same way?
As I said I did it for the 4-5 yrs I had my 45-120 but I was also loading plinking loads in the 45-70 brass.

I said do not do this with a soft lead bullet; but if a guy wants to do it with a jacketed bullet, or hard lead, or lighter loads, it won't hurt anything. Might not be too accurate, as you say. Black power and soft bullets will bump up bullets more than smokeless.
As I said, no reason to do it either.

Why does blackpowder bump a bullet more then smokeless. I thought the pressure curve of black powder was suppose to be mild?

actually it's quite the opposite. Black powder has a fast pressure curve and smokless has a slower curve.

In any case I'd be using a 300 grain Sierra jacketed bullet so the upsetting will be minimal.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Why does blackpowder bump a bullet more then smokeless. I thought the pressure curve of black powder was suppose to be mild?

IMHO, black powder is an instantaneous explosion at the breech and smokeless gradually burns and builds up pressure.
Cal

I would not do it in any of my rifles that are chambered in 45-90.

It is like shooting 38 Spls in a 357 revolver. The build up of powder residue and lead flakes/deposits, or copper fouling, will over a relatively short period of time make it difficult, if not impossible to chamber the 45-90 round.

45-90 ammunition or brass and dies are not that expensive, or hard to find these days.

Try www.buffaloarms.com for a start.

Rich

Yes, as I said, no reason to do it, but it won't kill you either.
Black powder is Degressive burning, in that it is solid grains which get smaller as they burn and do not increase in intensity as pressure goes up; as stated above, it burns fast at the start and will definitely bump a bullet up; look at the old calibers and you will find bullets at bore diameter; intended to be bumped up to fill the grooves. Smokeless is Progressive burning, meaning it starts out slow and gains in intensity as pressure grows. Up to a point of course. It won't bump up bullets well at all. Which is why shooting 45-70s in a 45-90 (only talking about a .3 gap) is not an issue, safety wise. Still, why do it? Unless you are stranded and only have 45-70s for a 45-90 rifle. Then, you should.

Is shooting a 45-70 jacketed bullet in a 45-90 different from shooting a 458 win mag in a 458 Lott or 450 Watts?

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Is shooting a 45-70 jacketed bullet in a 45-90 different from shooting a 458 win mag in a 458 Lott or 450 Watts?

Remember that 45.70s are a law unto themselves and do not rely on conventional physics.

Yes, I own a 45.70.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
It is like shooting 38 Spls in a 357 revolver. The build up of powder residue and lead flakes/deposits, or copper fouling, will over a relatively short period of time make it difficult, if not impossible to chamber the 45-90 round.

I never saw a 357 that could chamber a 45/70 even WITHOUT shooting 38s in it,,,,,

The few people I know with 45/90's seat the bullets out when using 45/70 cases to 45/90 OAL.
Would that make a difference?

Well that's he last black powder .458 Lott soft lead "baboon load" I'll ever shoot! Thank god I was told this incredibly valuable information before I hurt myself! I think the baboons will be grateful also! Thanks again!

The problem or surmised problem is throat erosion because the case is shorter than the chamber...My suggestion is since its not a high vel slambanger that melts metal, it won't hurt a thing and I shot many 45-70 in my 45-90 mod. 86.. Go ahead and shoot the short round and clean the gun now and then in the throat portion of the case if you must..Many a 35 Whelen, 458 Win., have the same so called problem but seem to keep on shoot'en...A hell of a lot of wildcats have been shot with short necks in longer chambers, even the 22 short in a 22 L.R.

Another internet old wives tale, and even in the hot wildcats that do damage the throat with hot gases, those guns are so hot they do that anyway and the short case gets the blame.

This kind of stuff comes from the guys that are plumb et up with technical BS, and they just get carried away with it, and then some gun scribe states something along these lines and the populace says "oh my, it must be so" and away we go.. But that's fine as it keeps them intertained and maybe even young!!

Someone should write a 1000 page book on old wives tales and the shooter of firearms, the first chapter should be on double rifles, then old win. rifles, Mausers and colt pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Someone should write a 1000 page book on old wives tales and the shooter of firearms, the first chapter should be on double rifles, then old win. rifles, Mausers and colt pistols.

...that pretty much summes it all up.

Since I'm bored and actually read this I believe if using BP you would get a "bump up" vs using smokeless powder, which is what I assume the OP is going to do (use smokeless).

I shot a 458 WM in my lott, seemed to work fine but I understand its not optimal

Well my posts are based on smokeless powder, I wouldn't shoot black powder in a good old 45-90. Not saying its a bad thing, saying its a pain in the butt and I might forget to clean it.

Black powder could certainly show a build up in the area from the case mouth to the lands with a short case, and its definatly corrosive.