New production M70 375 H&H Safaris are starting to show up at distributors, a friend of mine bought the first 375 H&H his distributor got in. 458/416 to follow, no ETA

Last week, I was told to expect the .416 in early June by Winchester.

I guess Winchester didn't get jeffeosso's pending results that the 375R (in various degrees of a shortening barrel)makes the 375H&H obsolete and that H&H shooters are just hardheaded luddites...

Who did not get the message: with same superformance loads, same capacity = same performance. There is no reason to ditch on old standard to be different or pimp your personal idea of how ctg design should all conform to some mythical ideal.

But, then Winchester still bitterly holding on to the 458Win - so never ever underestimate STUBBORN or EGO when it come to shooting sports.

I bet the new Winchester owners could dream up an experiment to prove the 458Win was better than the 458Lott and supply reams of data to prove it.

Why Winchester, why?

Why would they pick the 375 H&H over the 375 Rooger? When everyone knows the Rooger round to be superior in every way.

And why would they hang such a long 24" barrel on it to boot?

Isn't their marketing department in tune with what the whole world is clamoring for: an unbelted, short, fat cartridge in a rifle with the legal minimum barrel length?

Build that and the gun-buying public will beat a path to your door! I wonder if Rooger's path is overgrown with weeds yet?

Easier to cut a barrel shorter than try and stretch it longer

If they are producing a 416 Rem will they also produce brass for it?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Why Winchester, why?

Why would they pick the 375 H&H over the 375 Rooger? When everyone knows the Rooger round to be superior in every way.

And why would they hang such a long 24" barrel on it to boot?

Isn't their marketing department in tune with what the whole world is clamoring for: an unbelted, short, fat cartridge in a rifle with the legal minimum barrel length?

Build that and the gun-buying public will beat a path to your door! I wonder if Rooger's path is overgrown with weeds yet?

I have one of the last New Haven .375s. It's identical to the new ones except for the trigger and I like the old one better.

I like the 24" barrel because it makes it easier to shoot well offhand. Mine has shot a 0.6" 3-shot group at 100 yards from the bench, incidentally.

I much prefer the H&H cartridge to the Ruger. When I bought brtass you could get three or four types. There was no Ruger brass in stock.

And try to buy loaded rounds in Africa for the Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Who did not get the message: with same superformance loads, same capacity = same performance. There is no reason to ditch on old standard to be different or pimp your personal idea of how ctg design should all conform to some mythical ideal.

But, then Winchester still bitterly holding on to the 458Win - so never ever underestimate STUBBORN or EGO when it come to shooting sports.

I bet the new Winchester owners could dream up an experiment to prove the 458Win was better than the 458Lott and supply reams of data to prove it.

Bitterly holding on?

The .458WM with AA2230 will come within 75 fps of the Lott with equally compressed loads and equal pressures. The WM will penetrate adequately any game. All the Lott will do is expend more energy on the landscape. You can make WM rifles lighter, which you will appreciate if you have to carry one all day.

2 years ago (IIRC) at the SCI/Reno show (the one with all the big bore rifles, safari companys, yeah, that one)the Winchester/Browning rep had a pre-production M70 sample rifle in 338 WM. When I asked him when the big bore Safaris were going to be produced, I got a "deer in the headlights look". Not a good omen

For what it is worth. I have two 375H&H rifles a Win M70 and an AHR upgraded CZ 550. I also had a Rem 700 in 375H&H which I traded away. I really like the Winchester M70 in 375H&H, that would be my favorite of the three.

I have a Ruger RSM in 416Rigby. I like that very much. I like the feel of Ruger Alaskan - so who knows.

I am not spreading hate and I resent your tone. I guess you have your spots too. I decided to bow out of your barrel cutting thread after you made it personal. I made a suggestion, but I am not going to pay for the cost. Period.

The reason I think the 458Lott is better than the 458Win is not because it is bigger. But because the Lott is just right.

The 375H&H, same story, just right. It is hard to improve on just right.

Of course "IMHO" applies to all the above.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Dave
how many winchester 375 hh rifles do you own?
(btw, davie, minimum legal barrel is 16 and overall rifle length of 27".. but could be shorter in a pistol)
the answer, is, of course, NONE for either..

all hat, no cattle

It's not about ME, you twit. It's about Winchester's choice of what cartridges to chamber their new safari line of rifles. And right out of the chute, they didn't pick Rooger's offerings. (Personally, I would have been surprised if they did.) They also didn't offer Steyr or Weatherby or Lazarroni's chamberings either.

Jeff, you must be off your meds if you don't remember the pic I posted just the other day of my Sauer model 202. The other 375 H&H chambering I have is just a barrel...for my switch barrel Blaser R93. My only big bore Winchester rifle is my model 70, but it's chambered in 416 Rem mag.

Now don't you feel like a dumbass?

Fourbore, there's one thing we can say about Jeff...you can shut him down, but you won't shut him up.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I guess Winchester didn't get jeffeosso's pending results that the 375R (in various degrees of a shortening barrel)makes the 375H&H obsolete and that H&H shooters are just hardheaded luddites...

Perhaps Winchester is just getting the last use out of the 375 H&H tooling they brought with them from New Haven? Oh!, that's right, they sold everything they had at public auction. That means the top brass made a concerted effort to EXCLUDE the Rooger round from their safari line. I wonder why?

Winchester's owners, the Herstal Group, is in business to sell rifles. They could care less about what caliber is roll-marked on the barrel...Weatherby and Remington are represented. So this seems like a giant nose-thumbing to me. Perhaps the last straw in ensuring the 375 Rooger is moribund? We shall see if the gun-buying public ever truly equates the 375 Rooger with Africa. They can be a fickle lot.

quote:

They could care less about what caliber is roll-marked on the barrel...

Maybe they will roll one I dont already own, in one of the great old classics. A 404Jef to name one.

quote:

Maybe they will roll one I dont already own, in one of the great old classics. A 404Jef to name one

I'd buy one in a heart beat... very cool classic cartridge, but then again as I am learning on these forums, that's not a reason to like or use a cartridge, it's all about case capacity...apparently...

quote:

. yet dont' want to extend the right to anyone else?

And just how am I holding the rights?

I went back and reviewed the Joust thread and mostly what I see is a guy who knows he will win an argument acting like a pseudo-altruistic martyr in doing so. Sure you are putting your money where your mouth is but what it shows is that the number of people who REALLY care about the results are very, very few. MOst people will choose 22-24 inch barrels regardless of the data you get. The other's are like the .001% you spoke of who actually loose their ammo, so if that is the case, why again is all this info important, in real, everyday hunting rifle life??

Am am quite aware of what a luddite is, thanks...

What I don;t know is how you so readily jumped to your fall-back position of inciting obama and lefties... I just don;t get that jump man. But wait, isn't THAT a 'strawman' argument?? By inferring I am using the same tactics as 'them' in order to quell some rights..hmm jeffeosso, I never said such a thing, so please, don't put words in MY mouth...

I know the 375R hating bugs you because it clearly out performs the H&H, which your tests will eventually show and that people claim there is NO benefit over an H&H when compared apples to apples as much as that can be done. Why you can't just know what you know and let others believe what they want to believe I don;t get. It is why so many people are taking the piss out of you man; you make yourself an easy target when it takes so little to get you riled up.

Here are some things as I see them:

jeffeosso knows more about reloading and ballistics than me

jeffeosso cares more about reloading and ballistics than me

it is a public forum, no matter what comments one chooses to make

i think the 375R, if developed by Winchester would be seen as the shit

people (including myself) would be far better off doing some other activity than skull-fucking numbers on a website

the ignore feature I think still works


_Baxter

I have a couple of the South Carolina Winchesters. Shoot 1" or better with Federal ammo out of the box. I will get a .375 soon and expect the same. The new trigger is very crisp with no over travel. I like what I see in the new ones, especially the price.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Dave
how many winchester 375 hh rifles do you own?
...all hat, no cattle

Jeff, Jeff, Jeffe...just so we all know...how many Winchesters of the 375 H&H persuasion do you own? You've had the whole weekend to do the counting.

I answered your question. Be courteous enough to answer mine.

don't feel like playing these silly games anymore

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The answer is easy, as this moment, the same number of ruger 375s you've EVER owned,

To be more precise, the same number of Roogers of any caliber I've ever owned. Zero. Didn't I freely admit that years ago? Are you saying I'm not allowed an opinion because I never owned one? If that's the case, then I take back what I said about Rooger's boat-paddle stock...that it's Uggglllyyy! So damn ugly, it's actually fugly.

Why do you keep dredging up my question about where the 7.62x25 Tok headspaces? Because I got no concise answer from anyone I trust on this forum who didn't use waffle words in his answer. I chose to believe one of the Sierra Ballistic Technicians, namely Carrol Pilant. Do you feel slighted that I took an expert's opinion over yours? Which happened to be directly at odds with your answer. And let's face it, there are only 2 possible answers. You had a 50/50 chance and blew it. BTW, if I lived in Europe I'd give a damn about CIP. But I don't, so I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

The .458WM with AA2230 will come within 75 fps of the Lott with equally compressed loads and equal pressures. The WM will penetrate adequately any game. All the Lott will do is expend more energy on the landscape. You can make WM rifles lighter, which you will appreciate if you have to carry one all day.

Indy, I respect your experience and your opinion, but a couple of questions-

How much lighter than the Lott is a Mod 70 Win Mag? The Mod 70 Safari 3.6 inch magnum action is used with modified bolt stop and ejector for the shorter WM. IIRC, Norma loads medium velocity lower pressure rounds for the Lott so recoil can be kept virtually the same even for those that don't reload.
Do some research on the WM throat vs the Lott throat, is it better to have bullets bouncing down an oversized funnel that is considered a throat? The Lott throat should give superior accuracy with cast bullets (or lighter jacketed bullets) for practice or non dangerous game.
Did anyone learn anything from the shortages of reloading components last year? Is it better to have a cartridge that only shines with 2230 or are you better served by a longer cartridge that will reach the same velocity with a half dozen or more powders?
Like long monolithic bullets? The Win Mag doesn't.
How about the Lott being capable of firing either WM or Lott ammo in a pinch?

IMHO, the Win Mag is a good cartridge but the Lott brings more to the table and, considering the fact that they only need to spring for a different reamer, Winchester would be wise to offer both.

Nice mouth Baxter!

I have a safari classic Win.70 in 375 H&H and it does exactly what I expect of it. 7/8 inch groups with 300 grain Nosler handloads and solids. I may be the last holdout but I'd rather have H&H stamped on my Model 70 barrel than "Ruger". It matches my 1952 Model 70 in 300 H&H better.

quote:

Maybe they will roll one I dont already own, in one of the great old classics. A 404Jef to name one.

I wouldn't hold my breath! When the word hit the street that they would be chambering for big bores I called in and suggested the 404 Jeffery ... twice! I don't think either of the guys on the other line had heard of any caliber over 325 WSM.

quote:

Nice mouth Baxter!

Thanks!

Sorry for saying what many might think...

quote:

I wouldn't hold my breath! When the word hit the street that they would be chambering for big bores I called in and suggested the 404 Jeffery ... twice! I don't think either of the guys on the other line had heard of any caliber over 325 WSM.

too bad. another approach would be to chamber one "special" ctg each year. That way the old timers with a safe full of guns, might have an excuse to buy another Safari and it woiuld be limited edition - added incentive. All I ask is that they work. Unlike the problems we heard with the 470Capstick, which would be another good limited one year option.

Money talks. What do you thinks would be the market for 404J? I suspect they could sell 2000 rifles world wide in the first year if they could deliver them. this is just a gut feel guess with no facts to support it.

We need a hunting investment-angel to hang $4 million in front of Winchester and see if they bite!!

Dreams are free.....

quote:

Money talks. What do you thinks would be the market for 404J? I suspect they could sell 2000 rifles world wide in the first year if they could deliver them. this is just a gut feel guess with no facts to support it.

I think you are right, i'd be one of the 2000

So, has anyone held a new production .375 H&H in their hands and actually shot it ?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

I wouldn't hold my breath! When the word hit the street that they would be chambering for big bores I called in and suggested the 404 Jeffery ... twice! I don't think either of the guys on the other line had heard of any caliber over 325 WSM.

too bad. another approach would be to chamber one "special" ctg each year. That way the old timers with a safe full of guns, might have an excuse to buy another Safari and it woiuld be limited edition - added incentive. All I ask is that they work. Unlike the problems we heard with the 470Capstick, which would be another good limited one year option.

You only have to look at what Ruger is doing with the Ruger No 1 to work out that it is successful
- Boddington series, Special run of 303 British.

It would be a good move. Especially if they let everyone know in advance - ie the SHOT SHOW, IWA,
took orders, made the run, end of story. That way no left over inventory, they get the publicity,
sales etc.


.

quote:

You only have to look at what Ruger is doing with the Ruger No 1 to work out that it is successful
- Boddington series, Special run of 303 British.

The other game Ruger plays very well is the model dejour. With minimal tooling changes they drum up a compact, ultralight, mountain, alaskan, african, boddington, yadda, yadda. More caliber choices is one way to take the safari, but cosmetics, weight and balance is anther. They could take a stab at a rubber stock, light and short safari. Its a nitch with no competition. Magnum length ctgs in a handy hunting pkg.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

You only have to look at what Ruger is doing with the Ruger No 1 to work out that it is successful
- Boddington series, Special run of 303 British.

The other game Ruger plays very well is the model dejour. With minimal tooling changes they drum up a compact, ultralight, alaskan, african, biddington, and more. More caliber choices is on way to take the safar, but cosmetics, weight and balance is anther. They could take a stab at a rubber stock, light and short safari. Its a nitch with no competition. Magnum length ctgs in a handy hunting pkg.

And that is why Ruger succeeds while Winchester went down. Think of the Winchester models they had available and all the configurations / calibres - then multiply that by adding all the WSM's and WSSM's. Jesus, talk about dig a hole for yourself with inventory overload. WSM's, great concept, badly implemented and cost them the company. Should have only offered it in XY & Z guns and that was it.


Light and short I agree with, although Howa, I think Wby have something in the plains game calibres but maybe not the bigger end. The Remington in 375H&H might be one that fits your criteria.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

You only have to look at what Ruger is doing with the Ruger No 1 to work out that it is successful
- Boddington series, Special run of 303 British.

The other game Ruger plays very well is the model dejour. With minimal tooling changes they drum up a compact, ultralight, mountain, alaskan, african, boddington, yadda, yadda. More caliber choices is one way to take the safari, but cosmetics, weight and balance is anther. They could take a stab at a rubber stock, light and short safari. Its a nitch with no competition. Magnum length ctgs in a handy hunting pkg.

yeah, ruger holds the patent on THAT marketing ploy ..

If the new safari rifle is anything like the New Mod 70 classic 300wm I saw today they can keep em. Wow what a disappointment I was hoping the new guns would be better not cheaper. Oh well I'll just keep my double and RSM's.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

The .458WM with AA2230 will come within 75 fps of the Lott with equally compressed loads and equal pressures. The WM will penetrate adequately any game. All the Lott will do is expend more energy on the landscape. You can make WM rifles lighter, which you will appreciate if you have to carry one all day.

Indy, I respect your experience and your opinion, but a couple of questions-

How much lighter than the Lott is a Mod 70 Win Mag? The Mod 70 Safari 3.6 inch magnum action is used with modified bolt stop and ejector for the shorter WM. IIRC, Norma loads medium velocity lower pressure rounds for the Lott so recoil can be kept virtually the same even for those that don't reload.
Do some research on the WM throat vs the Lott throat, is it better to have bullets bouncing down an oversized funnel that is considered a throat? The Lott throat should give superior accuracy with cast bullets (or lighter jacketed bullets) for practice or non dangerous game.
Did anyone learn anything from the shortages of reloading components last year? Is it better to have a cartridge that only shines with 2230 or are you better served by a longer cartridge that will reach the same velocity with a half dozen or more powders?
Like long monolithic bullets? The Win Mag doesn't.
How about the Lott being capable of firing either WM or Lott ammo in a pinch?

IMHO, the Win Mag is a good cartridge but the Lott brings more to the table and, considering the fact that they only need to spring for a different reamer, Winchester would be wise to offer both.

Cat,

All I can say is that my .458WM Model 70 shoots 3-shot groups from 1" to 2" depending on the bullets. Small sample size because I don't need to get that recoil all day. There are other powders as good as AA2230. One I've tried is H335. Long monolithics? I load 450 grain TSXs and they feed and shoot fine. I don't care about shooting two different cartridges. I have never shot 22 shorts in my 22 LR rifles. In Africa, if you can't find one .458, chances are the one you can't find is the Lott.

That said, what I really think is that if I had a WM or a Lott, I'd keep it that way. There's hardly a bit of difference.

I agree that Winchester would do well to offer a wider caliber choice. Granted they don't want to stock many different rifles. But with today's self setup CNC machines, I would think you could order almost anything and get it for almost no additional time or cost.