What muzzle velocities can I expect from a .458 Lott with a 18 - 20" barrel. Will it be close to a .458 Win?

Published velocity for a 'standard' .458 Win. Mag. factory load is 500gr.@2040fps.

Published velocity for Hornady's .458 Lott factory load is 500gr.@2300fps.

The Lott's velocity will exceed the standard .458 Win. Mag.'s velocity in any typical rifle barrel length.

George

It seems the question is unclear. Are we comparing equal barrel lengths in each caliber or 18" in the Lott and the old standard of 25" in the .458? Makes a difference, I think.

It also makes a difference if we compare real chronographed velocities rather than published ones. Hornady factory 458 Lott velocities averaged around 2260 fps in the Lott I used and their 458 Win Hvy mag ammo showed 2240fps in the same rifle while an old box of Rem 458 Win only gave 1950fps.
I can assure you that even if you fail to hit your beast with an 18 " bbl Lott you will at least deaffen them and probably set them on fire as well.

Here is chronographed load data from Hornady for a 24" 458 Win mag.....many powders achieve a real 2150'/sec


500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 71.5 1,950
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 72.8 2,000
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 74.2 2,050
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 75.6 2,100
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 76.9 2,150
500 Hornady RN Accurate Arms AAC-2230 78.3 2,200

The real difference between a 458 Lott and a 458 Win mag is small IMO.

I chornographed factory Lott ammo at 2260 fps out of a 21 inch barreled 450 Watts.

vapodog,

Most of those loads are excessive, according to current AA data. How long ago were they concocted?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
vapodog,

Most of those loads are excessive, according to current AA data. How long ago were they concocted?

George

Those loads are from Hornady labs using pressure barrels as they load both the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott.

Many other (not posted) data show 2150'/sec with Hodgdon and IMR powders.....sorry George, I have no date for these data.

I would have to agree with Mr. Shoemaker. An 18" bbl on a Lott would redefine the term "Boom Stick" ! Hornady 458 WM Heavy Magnums chronographed 2083 fps (Oehler chrono reading 10' from muzzle) in my Ruger No.1 (24" bbl). Hornady factory loads for my Ruger 77 Lott (23" bbl) chronographed 2208 fps (also 10'). Hornady 458 WM Heavy Magnums in my Ruger 77 Lott measured 2034 fps. I'm sure the ballistics of either cartridge could be pushed a little with handloads. I Know this does not answer your question, just thought I'd post my results. Anyway, (lots of variables affect muzzle velocity) but most of the studies I've read say about 20 fps per inch. Probably a little less in the Lott. Perhaps someone on the forum has done actual testing in removing bbl length and measuring velocity of rifles in these chamberings?

Matt V.

let's be really clear..

bigger case, loaded with the same practice, will always result in a faster velocity...

if the difference between a lott and a winmag where only 100 fps... and then we claim the difference to be small...

would a load 100fps slower than a winmag still be a DGR?

or would people write endless complaints about it's performance in the field?

no, wait, that part has already been done.

jeffe

I got 2150 fps in a 22" barrel with 500 gr. Hornady solids using Hornady's recommended load of 75 gr. of Varget.

You will probably get that in a Lott using the right powder for your 18" barrel. A lot of it depends upon the bullet, the powder, the rifle, etc. Shoot it and find out.

quote:

I can assure you that even if you fail to hit your beast with an 18 " bbl Lott you will at least deaffen them and probably set them on fire as well.

That may well be the best line I've read all week...thanks for the chuckle!

And yes, I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Those loads are from Hornady labs using pressure barrels as they load both the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott.

Many other (not posted) data show 2150'/sec with Hodgdon and IMR powders.....sorry George, I have no date for these data.

No problem, vapodog. The powder charges proffered on the accuratearms.com site are several grains lighter (giving the same velocities and, I presume, pressures).

George

Vapodog's listed 458wm loads are right out of the current Hornaday manual.

I get 2145fps out of one 26" barrel with a Woodleigh 500gr solid with 72.5gr of AA 2230 and Federal 215 and 2130 out of another with the same load. This load is with the Woodleighs but the data in the Hornaday manual is the same as when their bullets were steel jacketed, I checked an older manual. The book says something under 2000fps with a 24" barrel. The load is one grain above the starting load, 6.8 below the max.

The performance of this load out of my barrels is plenty adequate for elephants. More than enough for cape buffalo.

I have an H 4895 load that drives a North Fork flat nose solid at 2190fps out of both barrels and gives phenominal penetration and gives up nothing in "knock down power" on elephants as well. Better than 50" of penetration on frontal brain shots and better than five and six feet on body shots. If anyone is interested in the performance of this load, see my report in African Hunting Reports, "30 days hunting, 9 Elephants" with a few photos of penetration. If anyone asks I'll find the load in my data and give it, subject to the normal warnings, as is the load data given above.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Hornady factory 458 Lott velocities averaged around 2260 fps in the Lott I used

Something is wrong with their loads. There is no reason to not get 2350 fps with a 500 grain bullet using IMR4320.

I guess I needed to be clearer about why I am asking the question.

I want to build a rifle and here are the criteria:
-It has to stop DG at very close ranges.
-On the odd occasion it might be used for shots up to a hundred yards.
-it has to be as light, short as possible but recoil still needs to be bearable.
-It has to be very rugged. It will be carried around daily but not used daily.
-it must be a caliber of which ammo will be readily available all over Africa. I reload but you know how it goes with transporting ammo in Africa
-It must be affordable to build and to shoot.

It is a tall order!

I got hold of P14 Enfield action for next to nothing.
I thought of barreling it for .458 Lott with an 18" barrel to ensure that I get at least .458 win velocities which should be more than enough to stop the big stuff.
I have a peep sight that should do the trick.

Please comment on my project.
I will be appreciated!

quote:

it must be a caliber of which ammo will be readily available all over Africa

I don't think the Lott fits this criteria.

Vapodog

If I don't for some reason have my Lott ammo I am sure I will get hold of some Win ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Bullet_.375:
Vapodog

If I don't for some reason have my Lott ammo I am sure I will get hold of some Win ammo.

Yes...the Win Mag ammo can be fired in the Lott chamber.....I forgot!

On lott ammo being available, it appears quite a few PHs are using the lott
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/860101715

bullet, It sounds to me like you have already given your future rifle a lot of thought and if you are using the Enfield action you might as well make it a Lott. My 458 mauser has a 20 1/2" bbl and even in super thick pucker brush I've never thought it was too long. For super quick handling removing a 1/2 inch off the butt makes as much difference as more inches off the bbl. It also makes carbines balance better, that is the reason our military M-4 has a collapsable stock as well as an abbriviated bbl.
Full sized rifles have a lot of real and theoretical advantages but speed of handling in cramped quarters is not one of them.

To save you a Lott of trouble here is a rifle to model your ideal DG rifle from.

I use 500gn hornady solids @ 2166 fps with 70gn Reloader 7 from a 20" barrel. There is plenty of more space in the cartridge for more powder if you need to go faster, also there is very little blast/muzzle blast as the powder is faster then varget/RL15.
Weight is 9.5lbs which includes a mercury recoli damper and decelerator pad.
Off the open safari sights she groups 4" at 110yds using shooting sticks.
At present I will avoids putting a scope as my 375 needs that.

Mark

I dont see why you cant get 2200 fps or better if you were to get 2350 out of a 24 " lets just say you would lose 20 per inch that gives you 2270. or 2300fps to 2180

MarkH

That rifle is an absolute beauty!!!

Would you mind e mailing me more pics so that I can show the smith what I had in mind? rc@webmail.co.za

I guess you are right. No need for anything shorter than 20". 500gr @ 2166fps will stop anything! (with the right shot placement etc. etc.)

Thanks for the reply!

Bullet,

does a 505 Gibbs sound a bit intimidating? I am shooting one now, with a 650gr cast GC bullet at 2100fps...off the bench. Rifle is a Rem M30 and does weigh 11.5lbs. No recoil reducer, just kickeez pad. It has a 25" heavy barrel. If the barrel were shortened to 21" and the stock slimmed down a little it could make 10lbs pretty easy with a mercury recoil reducer. Ditch the quarter rib and put a simple one leaf sight set dead on a 50 yards. Sling swivels and a good sling makes it an all day packer, and a deadly serious one-shot stopper on anything. This rifle duplicates the 500 NE 3", in a four shot bolt rifle. ME is 6600fpe.

hope this is of assistance,

Rich

Idaho,

Your suggestion sounds great!

I have actually considered the 500 Jeffery but potential feeding problems with the rebated rim, the availability of ammo and the cost of brass, bullets and etc discouraged me.
The 505 Gibbs does not have feeding problems but the cost and availability of bullets, brass and etc is why I don't think it will work.

I have actually considered the .550 express. In my mind that is the ultimate stopper (all things considered) and it is really affordable to shoot but obviously there isn’t any ammo available.

Maybe I seem paranoid about the availability of ammo but if you have been through an African country’s customs you tend to give things like this better consideration.