I am curious as to which brass most people are selecting for their 500 Jeffery shooting.

I realize the selection is limited.

Any particular brand to avoid?

Thanks,
Garrett

Garrett

If you have had chance to read the nasrrative on the cartridge prepared a few years back by David Little from Kynamco you will note the difference in the shoulder area of the so-called Jeffery cartridges.

The round currently manufactured by Kynamco under their "Kynoch " brand is the one registered with the CIP (European Proof Commission) as being the "True" Jeffery round, hence all rifles built in the U.K and so marked Jeffery .500 that are submitted to either the Birmingham or London proof houses must be for this calibre to pass the over-pressure proof test required by EU law and be stamped on the barrel.

The ammo offered by Westley Richards both here and in the U.S is made for them by Wolfgang Romey in Germany, in turn Wolfgang uses brass by Dieter Horneber, the shoulder on this ammo closely but not excatly mirrors the original ammo loaded for Schuler by GC Dornheim (GECADO) in Germany and consequently is not the same as the CIP standardised Kynoch ammo of modern manufacture.

It is possible to chamber Romey ammo in the CIP version of the round but slight chambering difficulty will be experienced as the shoulder must give a little on placing the bolt into battery.

The best bet is to establish what chamber you have before embarking on a brass acquisition exercise.

If you are having a rifle built and you use a CIP standard reamer then the modern Kynoch "made brass" ( Kynamco do not manufacture their own brass nowadays as did Kynoch Ltd of Witton, Birmingham, but instead use a number of sources including Norma, Bertram, Horneber and even Winchester for smaller cartridges) will be fine and can be obtained either by mail- order from Kynamco in Mildenhall, Suffolk, U.K as they sell it to hand-loaders, alternatively you could try either Galazans or Neal Shirley at custom Brass and Bullets in the U.S, he lists Kynoch brass as being available.

Dies could be sourced for that particular shoulder dimension form Dave Davison at CH4D.

hope this helps

Jonathan

Jonathan,

Thanks again for all the information you have sent me...it is much appreciated.

I think your suggestion is the wisest. I'll do a chamber cast after reaming, and then have the dies made to fit that.

I'll keep you posted.

Regards,
Garrett

N.Garrett,
You don't have to be a brain surgeon to know to AVOID BERTRAM BRASS.

Right on with the plan to match your dies to your chamber. Then find some Horneber or Jamison brass would be what I would do next. Fire form it once then reload it for action with a full length resizing in your proper dies.

ALF has been instrumental in educating us on the 500 Jeffery variants, and it agrees with what Jonathan is saying. Just a review to keep this burnt into an Alzheimer memory of mine someday:

.500 Jeffery Shoulder angles:

Kynoch's year 1928 "Original": 12.63 degrees

Romey's year 1997 "Hybrid": 19.97 degrees

And the 12.7x70mm Schuler:

RWS's 1940 version: 23.54 degrees

I assume that Jonathan refers to the 1928 Kynoch chamber as the CIP standard.

The SAAMI standard would be that shown in the 1996 A-Square manual, and that would be the same as the Romey "Hybrid," as it has a 20 degree shoulder.

So do we still have two standards for the .500 Jeffery, differing CIP and SAAMI chambers? I think so.

www.grafs.com
They say Jamison brass for 500 Jeffery is "out of stock." Nice prices: $50.99/20, $242.50/100, and $458.91/200.

www.huntingtons.com
Horneber for $84.98/20
Jamison for $54.98/20
They say "call for availability."

I have some North Devon dies made in the U.K. by a defunct firm. I guess they are the CIP spec.

RIP

Out of curiousity, whats wrong with Bertram Brass?

I hunted with Graham Williams of Australian Buffalo Hunters earlier this year and he was using Bertrams cases for his new 500 Jeff without any issues at all. He seemd to be happy with it.

Too soft, thin, and specs too irregular, in other words, crappy brass.

But hey, if it is all you can find ... good luck.

MLG,

+/- (plus or minus) .015" on primer pocket depth, ditto on rim thickness, +/- .050" on length, +/- .010" on body diameter. All this in a lot of 100 cases.

That's the best part...too soft, and lots of split casenecks on fireforming.

Rich

RIP

Were it that simple!

The shoulder angle dimensions as submitted by Kynamco for CIP recognition in 1998 appeared to call for a shoulder angle of 25 degrees 16 minutes, this is shown on the K98 drawings from Kynamco Ltd dated July 1998.

I think therefore that you are correct in that at least 2 standards exist for this cartridge. The .500 as made by Harald Wolfe, which I recall used a full sized rim will not be able to be offered for sale in Eurpoe (covered by the CIP standard) unless he qualifies in someway the description of the cartridge i.e ."500 Jeffery Modified" or even .500 Jeffery Improved, as it is clearly not in accordance with the CIP version, which maintains the rebated rim.

All only serving to add to the confusion. As you rightly say, better to check the rifle chamber against the dies used and then source suitable brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
MLG,

+/- (plus or minus) .015" on primer pocket depth, ditto on rim thickness, +/- .050" on length, +/- .010" on body diameter. All this in a lot of 100 cases.

That's the best part...too soft, and lots of split casenecks on fireforming.

Rich

Thanks for the feedback... forearmed is forewarned!!

brass.. use hornber... bertram is junk
jeffe

Hornbear is good, if you can find old Star brass it is also good.

Bertram is junk. I bought 100 cases of 350 Rigby at closeout prices, and it's only good for plinking loads. At least I didn't make the mistake and buy any full price 500J, as I'd been forewarned.

Jonathan,
Thanks.
I was oblivious to the 1998 CIP standard for the 500 Jeffery.

I have not determined what shoulder angle my North Devon dies have. I bought them off a shelf in Rapid City, SD in 2006, but I heard North Devon is out of business, maybe for many years now?

I would certainly rather have the 1998 CIP shoulder of about 25.25 degrees than the old 1928 shoulder of about half that.

The 500 Jeffery is such a problem child that it becomes desirable as a challenge to overcome all its foibles and get a rifle to function properly. Stunt shooting at its finest.

Lessee,
Kynamco 1998 CIP 500 Jeffery 25 degrees 16 minutes = 25.2666... degrees.

Geez! Remembering three different sets of specs for the 500 Jeffery is asking a lot of the Alzheimer's afflicted. Then there is the non-rebated Harold Wolf stuff and the 500 AHR to confuse me too!

Here is a piece of Bertram 500 Jeffery brass sized in my dies. Might be 25.2666... degrees?

RIP

You are correct the chap who ran NDFS retired due to ailing health problems a number of years ago now, the business was taken over by a guy close to my own home in North Yorkshire, England who may well have bitten off more than he could chew as die making is something of a black- art with all the different sized chambers of older guns and all the tooling reqired to make them.

In the end I think the whole thing came too much for him as the project seemed to hit the skids early on, nothing has been heard from the chap now for several years so I guess that is indeed the end of North Devon FS.

I do not fire enough rounds to really warrant reloading for my own .500 so use instead current Kynamco made Kynoch with the standard 535 grain Woodleigh bullets.

I am by no means certain but feel it is possible that David usaes Bertram cases for his factory ammo.

The rebated rim is not too much of a problem if the gunmaker does his part correctly.

I have seen 2 .500 rifles that would not feed properly from the magazine, in one case the rifle would feed only with solids and hang up with soft nosed, I feel in part this is where the bad reputation stems from.

Built correctly with sufficient care, the round should feed both soft and solid from the magazine each and every time, by this I mean from a staggered magazine rather than the straight Schuler box.

If I place 3 rounds in my own magazine and, with the bolt to the rear, I jolt the rifle forwards, the built up momentum will permit the bolt to continue slide forward and pick up the top round and push it into the chamber, this with both soft and solid bullets.

Obviously there is no shooting advantage to such a trick, but it does illustrate that it can be done.

Have you ha dthe chance to try some current Kynoch factory ammo in your own rifle?

Jonathan,
I don't have a 500 Jeffery rifle yet, just the dies and a wee bit of Bertram brass to play with.

I will just have to get a chamber cast of the NDFS dies and send it to Dave Manson with request to make a chamber reamer to fit those dies. A bit bassackwards but ought to work.

Is your rifle one of those rare original Jeffery's? Is it on a standard Mauser 98 or a Magnum?

I am drawn like a moth to the flame, to the hellish fire of the 500 Jeffery.

RIP

My rilfe is sadly not an original Leonard built one. Alf recently posted some picutes on this Site of such a rifle in his possession, I am still drooling!

My own rifle is in fact built on a Dakota L/h action with a barrel by Arthur Smith from England cut to the CIP specification chamber.

I am unsing .500 Kynoch ammo rather than reloading at present.

If you send me a pm with your e-mail details I will send you some pictures, unfortunately they are only 35mm rather than digiatl so will have to be scanned.

Thanks, Jonathan. PM now.