quote:

EKM
I don't think you will want to have the set trigger on a 500 A-Square. You wnat to have a good trigger with a trigger pull you have to work a bit before it goes off. A touchy trigger will just get you in trouble with 100 lbs. of recoil waiting.
Take care,
Dave

Hmmm,
Good point,
Probably would disable the set trigger and stiffen the primary to 5 pounds or so --- thanks, I value stuff like that. I suppose broken bones (face or fingers) could be a consequence of a discharge that one was not fully prepared for. As you have been trying to tell me from the beginning --- a whole new level of play.
=============================

RIP,
Especially if I'm wanting a secondary recoil lug that is compatible with the CZ hogback stock would you recommend sending Harry the entire rifle?

Also what would you recommend for front site and barrel band --- are these amateur doable or best to let Harry handle it?

EKM,
I have not had Harry and his help do that particular before.

I do have a .510 caliber stainless 10" twist barrel on order from McGowen that will be turned by McGowen to the CZ big bore contour (like their .505 barrel, .750" at muzzle) with the 1-3/8" diameter lump left on the barrel.

This is how McGowen supplies them to CZ-USA. CZ-USA does the machining on the lump to create the recoil contraption and rear sight island.

So eventually I may be able to answer your question but can't right now.

I do not want to duplicate the CZ contraption, just a simple big lug integral to the barrel for recoil shoulder.

The rear sight island will take some consideration before I do anything with it, and I may just eliminate it. I like a peep rear and a patridge front.

Use the NECG banded front "Masterpiece" sights, and whatever barrel band you like for sling.

I prefer a rod imbedded in the forearm with the sling swivel base sticking out of the tip of the forend.

Some progress away from nostalgia has been made by some.

quote:

I prefer a rod imbedded in the forearm with the sling swivel base sticking out of the tip of the forend.

Interesting, while I'm busy with a router and steel-bedding that would be do-able so what are the specifics> Length? Diameter? Just drill and tap for the swivel?

It is a part from Brownell's, IIRC, about 6 inch long flat steel about 1/2" wide and 1/4" thick with holes through it along its length, beds into the barrel channel, covered by epoxy, swivel base is integral at the tip that sticks out from the forend beneath the barrel. This will become standard equipment at HA!/DOA, where we can do without those barrel band sling bases ... need to find it in the Brownell's catalog ...

I have been following this post with great interest. I have several questions.
1) Is the CZ mag 416 rigby w/mcmillan the least expensive way to go for 500a2? I don't think I could handle the stock work, plus I'm a synthetic utilitarian kind of guy.
2)What about a used 460wby with a barrell change?
3)I want to get into the .510 club but I'm not sure if the 500a2 is the way to go any other suggestions, ie. CZ 505/510 gibbs?
4)If I do go the CZ mag 416 route can this be accomplished by an amature gunsmith like myself?

Great post! I have enjoyed reading it.

The following responses to ptaylor are conclusions I have "stolen" over the course of about a year from others here who I believe know there stuff. Since ptaylor's post sat there a while with no answer, I'll tag him with this knowing it could be scrutinized.

1) Is the CZ mag 416 rigby w/mcmillan the least expensive way to go for 500a2?

I'm not the resident expert(s) and there are always exceptions where someone has components they have bought here and there at prices one cannot match on demand. With that said, I believe that yes the CZ route is the cheapest worthy route.

I believe A Squared used modified Springfield/Enfield actions but I don't know if that would REALLY be cheaper by the time you were completely done or if you would reallylike the end product when your project was complete.

I don't think I could handle the stock work, plus I'm a synthetic utilitarian kind of guy.

Even amongst those who can handle the stock work, the McMillan seems to be a popular route.

2)What about a used 460wby with a barrell change?

Sounds doable to me. Criticisms could be that: (a) even used 460 Weatherbys aren't cheap. (b) Weatherby is a push feed and one wouldn't want a push feed for a DGR and that a rifle like this should be set up as a DGR and (c) the Weatherby only holds two rounds down in the magazine.

3) I want to get into the .510 club but I'm not sure if the 500a2 is the way to go any other suggestions, ie. CZ 505/510 gibbs?

**500 Jeffrey, but I have followed stories of persistent problems getting converted rifles to feed correctly, whereas the Weatherby-based cartridges seem to "like" the CZ Rigby action. With a DGR mis-feeding cannot be tolerated, hence I have avoided that cartridge for a conversion, plus the 500A2 has more cojones, though I plan to load mine down to 500 Jeffery levels.

** 505/510 if you want to go wildcat, something I try to avoid, in most cases you can find what you want already invented and established. Better for resale too IMO.

** 50BMG as long as you never plan on getting more than 100 yards from the truck.

4)If I do go the CZ mag 416 route can this be accomplished by an amature gunsmith like myself?

Personally, I'll have a pro involved at some level, either at the barrel factory or here at home --- I can dabble in stock work, but for me steel work is serious business.

Okay, with price being a driver
the CZ 416 rigby to 500A2/510 Wells

send barreled action to pac-nor
-rebarrel and chamber to whichever in a #6 contour
-they add a barrel recoil lug (should be in the same length, but taller and wider than the BOTTOM of the factory barrel "lug")
-chamber
-blue
feeding

While the gun is at pac-nor, you add to the stock
crossbolts (fore and aft)
pin the wrist (run an allthread rod into the wrist)

sand and refinish the stock
add a limbsaver grind to fit

order a CZ 375 extractor claw (just to have it on hand if the 500 is loose)
when barreled action arrives

inlett it
marine tex bed it (2 pours.. do NOT bed barrel lug and front action lug at the same time)

drill through the "tie down" on the forearm to the recoil lug

tap it

use the tiedown but this time it's actually TIEING the barrel down

the end

jeffe

oh, yeah, same story, except change the barrel contours, for teh 470 mbogo and 550 magnum

jeffe

Short and sweet, exactly what I wanted to hear. It sounds do-able. I'll start looking for a used/new 416. Thanks for the help. There will be plenty more question to come, I'm sure.

quote:

marine tex bed it (2 pours.. do NOT bed barrel lug and front action lug at the same time)

Jeffe,

What is marine tex bed? Brownells? Better than steel bed?

I've done my two CZ with F Block front barrel "lugs" in one pour. I could do it in two pours. Two true recoil lugs could be different in a way I am not visualizing, but anyhow....

Why two pours?

ptaylor,
If going new, then go on gunbroker.com search CZ and Rigby and locate Ton80 out of Norcross Georgia (CZ Connection) he seems to be one of the players you should check with for new.

Marine tex, "grey" is my current favorite bedding compound... i had trouble with a Lot/Btach of steel bed, and was told by the bubba's that I was missing out...

good stuff, very thick gel.. very little runs.. and stands up to the 550

if you have a real lug on the barrel, assuming all bedding surfaces to be parallel vertically, you would have to drift it out if you have the barrel and front lugs bedded at the same time. So, 2 pours for me.

jeffe

I can visualize it now. Yes, some serious barrel "manhandling" to get two big recoil barrel lugs to release from the bedding at the same time. The second you said "drift" (very polite and "gentle" term) everything became clear. Releasing two lugs at one time could require some....

EKM and Jeffe,
Good bag of rifle dope.

I'm always looking to "whittle" the cost of a project down. I do my own stock work and that helps and I find it personally satisfying. Now I'm looking at "barrel/receiver attachments" i.e. peep ghost ring rear, barrel band (s/b easy), and front sight.

On the rear peep sight how hard is it to modify the NECG Weaver mount to fit onto a CZ?

Before I go shopping in the Brownells website, on the front sight do you recommend "tapped and screwed on" or a front sight with a barrel band and soldered on?

Is the "NECG Masterpiece front sight with adjustable height gold patridge post" a screw on sight or solder it on with a barrel band?

For all these items, but especially the front sight, do you consider the job.... easy, difficult, you'll be sorry, or yeah go for it?

necg
universal banded front sight.. it's hugely adjustable

jeffe

Thanks, Jeffe, both you and RIP (and others) have been great

If one loads the 500A2 down to 500 Jeffrey and/or 505 Gibbs levels will it likely require inserting dacron over the powder column?

I bought my CZ 416 rigby today. My first true bigbore. I've had a 45-70 for years but I know that really doesn't count. I plan on leaving it as a 416 for now, shoot it for awhile and then if I get bored will change to 500a2. Thanks for all the great info.
I think I will start with some cast loads then work up to 350gr jacketed then the 400's. RCBS dies and Norma brass. Does all that sound about right?
Probably work with the open sights for now and put a 1x-5x variable on it in the coming months.
Is there anything else you guys can think of I might need? Besides lots of powder.

Did you buy that new European CZ550 in 416 Rigby on gunbroker or did you pick it up elsewhere?
============================================

quote:

Is there anything else you guys can think of I might need? Besides lots of powder.

In answer to your questions, yes....
Cross bolts and Steelbed....

Of course the Steelbed could make it a bit difficult, when it comes time to lay that 500A2 barrel in there.

The 416 Rigby is a wonderfully versatile round, moreso than a 500A2 I would think....
however, if you are looking for sheer snot slapping and arse kicking, then you gotta have the 500A2.

Enjoy!

quote:

Originally posted by ELKampMaster:

If one loads the 500A2 down to 500 Jeffrey and/or 505 Gibbs levels will it likely require inserting dacron over the powder column?

Hey EKM,
It will never be necessary to use a filler with the .500A2, if all you want is to throttle it back to .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs classic ballistics.

Just use a powder slower than RL-15 or Varget with those 570 grainers.

Try H4350. If that is still too fast, try H4381SC.

By this procedure, soon you will have it slowed down to .500 Nitro Express levels.

Resist the temptation to compress your charges of these slower powders.

EKM,
remember, the 500a2 is actually a smaller case than the gibbs and 500 jeffe, so anything at or past those levels is more pressure... which, btw, in this instance, doesn't mean much as the jeffe runs at pretty darn low pressure. Since I have horneber brass, I guess I should trot it out and see what the jeffe will do at pressure as well.

Loading the a2 to 500jeffe levels is generally more than most people like, though you can train to it pretty easy. Going 600gr at 2400, with over 100 grains of powder, now THAT will recoil...

jeffe

Case capacities in grains of water:

500A2: 150
500 Jeffery: 160
500 Gibbs: 180

There is not a lot of difference between the 500A2 and the 500 Jeffery regarding velocities and pressures.

Max average pressure for the 500 Jeffery: 47,170 PSI: this makes allowances for antique rifles, and is equivalent to about 2300 fps with 570 grain bullets, in a 26" barrel.

Max average pressure for the 500 A-Square: 63,860 PSI: O.K. in the modern/strong CZ 550 Magnum with the Rigby size case head, and equivalent to about 2600 fps with 570 grainers, in a 26" barrel.

The 570 grainers at just over 2400 fps in a 23" barrel (or about 2500 fps in a 26" barrel) is where I stop with the 500A2 using RL-15 or Varget.

The 500 Jeffery does have a slightly larger case head, so pushing it to maximum 500A2 ballistics is probably all you could ask of it in a CZ 550 Magnum chambered for 500 Jeffery (if you have Horneber brass like jeffe), but never do so in a standard Mauser 98 that has been opened up for that fat boy.

As usually loaded, the 500A2 has about a 300 fps advantage over the 500 Jeffery with the 570 grain bullet, and the Norma made .460 Wby brass necked up to .510 caliber can handle that, no worries.

Or load that 500A2 down with slower powders and no filler, to go easy on the shoulder.

The .505 Gibbs with 525 grainers at 2325 fps is really weak by comparison to either the .500 Jeffery or the 500A2.

Even "hot loading" the .505 Gibbs to 2500 fps with 525 grainers (OH MY!) is still a third place to the Jeffery and A2 500's.

So are there 500A2 stories coming out of the PH Schools in Africa that are akin to the 416RemMag stories, i.e. to much pressure in the heat and hence sticky extraction? [I suppose not many PH candidates would bring a 500A2 to school.]

Would loading the 500A2 down to "traditional" 500 Jeffrey levels alleviate that potential problem?

You load the 500A2 to exceed "classic" .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs ballistics and you stay in the 50K PSI ball park.

Never a pressure problem, hot or cold, or hell or high water.

500 A-Square pressure data:

500 A-Square with 26" barrel and 10" twist
RL-15 113.0 grains and 118.0 grains powder
with A-Square Dead Tough .510/600gr
113.0: 2316 fps = 43,000 psi
118.0: 2467 fps = 57,500 psi

Very efficient cartridge, with the available powders being just right for it in the RL-15 to 4350's burn rate range, no fillers needed.

If you have pressure problems then you have tried really hard to do so: used a drop tube AND compressed the load AND it is 130 degrees F ambient for the pressure testing, AND you are using 850 grain target bullet ... well, maybe this is a slight exaggeration.

No worries.

I use 110 grains of RL-15 with .509/570 grain Barnes XLC bullets and get 2405 fps with a 23" barrel of 10 inch twist.

That beats classic .505 Gibbs and .500 Jeffery, and pressure is probably around 50K.

A TSX is on the way.

As usual RIP is right on the money.

Pressure in a .500A2 is not a potential problem, it's not a problem at all--unless the handloader/shooter makes it one by doing something stupid!

For the record, I used mine in 125 degree plus temperatures, both hunting and target shooting after the game was in the bag. We fired a couple dozen rounds or more, fairly rapidly, and all with a slightly compressed load (116 grains) of H4350SC (loaded with a six inch drop tube) under 600 grain Woodleighs with no signs of pressure whatsoever.

I bought the NIB CZ american from the Georgia guy.

I will need to cross bolt and bed even the 416?

Assuming you have a standard stock and not a laminated one....

IMHO, yes --- if you want to be safe. Have heard plenty of sob stories (and not all CZ either). With that said, I couldn't resist the temptation to go burn a hand full of rounds through my 416 Rigby before I went to work on the stock (something to hold me over); however, I was full aware of the risks.

For me personally, my 416 Rigby loaded warm, has the same felt recoil as my 458 Lott loaded warm.

If you decide to shoot before you work over the stock, then:
(1) Accept responsibility for the risk (may result in split stock)
(2) Make sure the two rear action screws are tight.
(3) Take your first shot standing up and keep your thumb away from your nose if the stock don't fit you right.
(4) Don't screw around with the set trigger for your first go-around.
(5) Keep a FIRM grip on the forearm.

All I know is I loaded 100 gr of varget over a 600 gr cast in my 25" tubed 500 Jeffey and got an even 2200 fps. Recoil wasn't as unpleasant as my previous 458 lott in the same stock, though the Jeffrey moved me more. For some reason I simply haven't been motivated to add more powder to the case For me the 500 was enough to cure me of my desire for a 600 OK. Sometimes you just gotta be honest with yourself. Top loads in big stuff is a serious commitment and to be trifled with.

Hmm, haven't shot the Jeffrey in awhile, gotta get to the range next week

I know this might be a dumb question ,but i know the both the 505 and 500 j have a good reputation on big game ,Do 600 gr bullets and the extra fps make alot of difference on big game ?in the A2 ! just wondering what is the most practical loading for it?, rather than just ''scream'' figures which are much pain and [maybe]not alot of real gain

I don't think it is a dumb question at all; however, I think it does go to personal preferences, so different folks will end up favoring differenct chamberings.

Personally, my preferences run to the 500A2 because of the converted 460 Weatherby casing which is both strong and feeds real well in the CZ action [quite important to me] plus the cost numbers of the conversion work out well. One additional "benefit" is that as far as I can tell, if loaded up, then the 500A2 is the "bad boy" of the three and I guess I am attracted to that. As far as nostalgia may go [not mentioned yet, but may come up], I figure I have the nostalgia quotient covered with the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby, so there is no need to stay married to that part. This rifle needs to definitively cap the upper end of my rifle rack.

Even with any one of the three (Gibbs, Jeff, A2) I think one has crossed the line into "scream figures" territory quite a ways back, at least for most folks. With the 500A2 one can load up or load down depending on how much "scream" factor one wants; it's good to have options.

To me 600 gr solids make sense, though I can't see running them faster than 2200 fps. They will certainly have sufficient penetration at that velocity. They will also be much more shootable at that velocity. An extra 100-200 fps with a 500-600 gr bullet has a tremendous increase in recoil.

I could see driving the 570 gr X bullets 2400-2500, which is exactly what I planned to do with my 500 Jeffrey. Gotta put a real stock on it before I start that though

quote:

Originally posted by ELKampMaster:
Assuming you have a standard stock and not a laminated one....

IMHO, yes --- if you want to be safe. Have heard plenty of sob stories (and not all CZ either). With that said, I couldn't resist the temptation to go burn a hand full of rounds through my 416 Rigby before I went to work on the stock (something to hold me over); however, I was full aware of the risks.

For me personally, my 416 Rigby loaded warm, has the same felt recoil as my 458 Lott loaded warm.

If you decide to shoot before you work over the stock, then:
(1) Accept responsibility for the risk (may result in split stock)
(2) Make sure the two rear action screws are tight.
(3) Take your first shot standing up and keep your thumb away from your nose if the stock don't fit you right.
(4) Don't screw around with the set trigger for your first go-around.
(5) Keep a FIRM grip on the forearm.

You are scaring me! So there is a real danger of this thing spliting the stock and busting my face open? What happens when I split the stock on the first round and call CZ to bitch about it?
So what do I need cross bolts or steel bed or both? Will the b-square cross bolt jig from Brownells work?

my customer replaced two stocks which cz replaced with no problem. he got tired of the down time without the gun so on the third stock he brought it to me to be crossbolted and bedded in devcon stainless steel. he is still shooting it without spits yet.

quote:

Originally posted by ptaylor:
I bought the NIB CZ american from the Georgia guy.

I will need to cross bolt and bed even the 416?

if yo uleave it in 416, no...

if you load it to 416 WEATHEREBY? yes

jeffe

Did a search and have re-read old posts from EKM when he bed his 416 rigby. Very informative, even without the pictures or a rifle on hand to look at.
My rifle gets shipped today and should have it by the end of the week. Then I will have to make a choice between doing the work myself or having it done. Probably come down to cost. What would a ballpark figure from a "make my living at" gunsmith charge for crossbolt-bedding job?
There is an excellent smith in town but expensive!
I tend to get really impatient and begin to screw things up when I try and do it myself.
No matter what I decide I'm going to fire off several rounds before any work begins.

After reading the Lott article about stock bedding and reinforcement it seems to make more sense to place internal bolts vs. cross bolts. The margin for error is much larger for the internal plus you don't have to refinish.

Inlet for the bolts, apply steelbed and you are done especially if plan on applying steel bed anyway.
How does that sound for a plan?

IMHO, the internal crossbolts spread the impact in the recoil lug areas which is a good thing; however, the cross bolts keep the magazine box from flexing (bulging outward) and that can start cracks, especially in the trigger "web" area (you'll see what I mean when you take it apart --- kinda delicate --- my "behind the magazine" cross bolt went right through that area.

I've been looking for the photos to reload for the CZ 416 Rigby Project since Hunt101 lost them. I haven't found them yet.

Good luck.
EKM

EKM I appreciate the help. If you find the photos please let me know. I've ordered the steel bedding. Maybe I should return it and take the rifle over to my gunsmith. I know I will screw up the cross bolts if I try and do them myself.
EKM how has your 416 held up? Have you been pushing it hard?
I guess I should just bit the bullet and have/do internal/external bolts with bedding then I will never have to worry about it again. I just don't want to spend any more $ on this thing.