I am looking for a "bigger" gun to use on a future buffalo hunt and to add to the arsonal. Right now the biggest gun I own is a 300RUM which I can use for Elk, Moose, Bear.... I know you can't go wrong with everybodys favorite a 375H&H for so many reasons, but its not much bigger than my 300RUM. I pretty much shoot factory loads and factory guns. Nothing custom, nothing expensive. I am left handed and grew up shooting Rem 700s and like them since I am so used to them. My 30-06 and 300rum shoot great and I am so used to those guns, I would want something similar I think. How expensive is 416 ammo or 458 ammo compared to a good 375 box of ammo? Are the bigger guns worth it? Do you really need a 458? Any opinions would be appreciated. Oh yeah one other gun I was considering 375RUM. Ideas?

Try to set up shooting opportunities with all the big calibers.

As Brad Rolston told me, " shoot the biggest caliber you can,

in a rifle that you can carry all day in the AFRICAN heat and

then shoot WELL at the END OF THE DAY!

I would choose the .375 H&H if buffalo is the only dangerous game you are going to hunt. The versatile .375 can be comfortably used for many things. Although the others can also be used for smaller critters, do you really want to? Lou

As far as being able to shoot a good size gun, I can handle anything reasonable (big guy). Leporad and Buffalo are the only DG I am interested in right now and Grizzly/Brown bear. I just thought a 416 might be better to be my biggest gun just incase. I did see at a local Cabelas though, 416REM ammo was $120 a box!? Thats crazy. Their 458 ammo was cheaper. Is this common?

Considering the cost of a Cape buffalo or leopard hunt, complaining about the cost of ammunition is silly.

Learn to handload; your ammunition will cost much less, allowing you to practice more.

As for a recommendation, locate a LH Model 70 .375H&H and go hunting.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Considering the cost of a Cape buffalo or leopard hunt, complaining about the cost of ammunition is silly.

Learn to handload; your ammunition will cost much less, allowing you to practice more.

As for a recommendation, locate a LH Model 70 .375H&H and go hunting.

George

What he said! Buy yourself a clean Mod 70 LH chambered for 375 H&H, and never look back. I understand that you like your Mod 700s, but when dangerous game is the target you need a rifle with CRF (Control Round Feeding).

Two or three boxes of that $120 factory ammo would buy a nice handloading set-up. even premium ammo for the 375 is $ 50 $60 per box. The fact is you can load better ammo at home for a whole lot less than factory ammo costs.

If, however, you insist on buying another mod 700, I'd still get it chambered for 375H&H, and sell the RUM,use the money to set myself up with top of the line reloading equipment, and a supply of bullets powder, and brass, because the 30-06, and the 375 H&H will cover the world, and the RUM will do nothing that isn't covered by the other two!

What George said.

Since you already have a .300 mag, it will make a great pair with a .375HH; take 'em both to Africa. If you had a .338 already, then a .416 might make a little bit of sense, but still the .375 is a great all-around caliber. And, its availablilty in the M70 LH is a big bonus. Get one, it'll become your best friend (mine did, anyway).

Even though it sounds like us southpaws are coming into a bit of a good times in the near future with CZ, Ruger, and Remington all saying they're going to do some big bore stuff on the correct side, you still can't go wrong with the M70.

I'm surprised the 9.3 crowd haven't chimed in!
PostDriver has given you good advise.

First thing I would consider if I were you, is how much recoil can you stand. Jumping from a 30 cal to 375 or larger means a 25% to over 50% more slap and it only takes ONE round to turn you into a twitchy, mind numbed jerker...for the rest of your life.

Forget the price of factory and buy yourself a good reloading outfit. All the previous statements about reloading apply, ESPECIALLY, for the larger cals.

My 416 Taylor with a 400 gr bullet at around 2400 f/s calculates in the 50 ft/lb range, and it is considered one of the smaller "big guns", but equal to the famed "you-know-which". Go up to one of the RUM or Wheatherbys and you go up into the century mark in recoil energy or beyond.

I fire 100 to 150 rounds of 350 and 400 gr Taylors a year...one to two mag fulls a month, just to keep my reality in focus, not that I like absorbing that much energy. My body vibrates for a day or two after a session. I like the bullet, the rifle, what it does, I'm not a small person and have been doing this sport for over a half century...BUT...I don't like getting hammered and 50 plus lbs is just about all I can or want to take. The Taylor or 416 Rem will kill anything on this earth and I'm not into any macho bull****. Consider this carefully if, as I said, you are real.

Everyone likes to talk the talk but few can walk the walk. If you're real, you need to do your own research. Most of us have our "favorites" and will defend them to the death almost, will bore the he** out of anyone at the drop of the phrase "what caliber do you like..." and very few really give you accurate information. Just too many variables. You never know who you're talking to on the net. Lots of armchairs out there. Be your own man or woman...which ever.

I'm not flaming anyone, just presenting my view and maybe other alternative observations.

If you are goind to stay within 100 yds a 458 Win or 458 Lott would do nicely. Both are easy to reload. So would any of the 416's, so would any of the 375's, so would any of the 338's... get the picture. If you are going beyond that distance, I would pick a 375 or 416 bullet as it has a higher BC and will hold velocity and energy longer which translates into a "flatter" trajectory, and I just like 375 and 416 bullets. I still have a 45-70 tho' and wouldn't hesitate to take on most game with the right bullet at the right range.

Alternitively, just go to the heaviest weigh, deepest penetrating bullet in your 300 RUM and be happy. 220 gr at 3000 f/s puts you in the same enegy range as the 375 H&H, 416 Taylor and Rem and 458 cals with similar weight bullets. I'm talking realistic animal killing power not the paper kind. You can argue bullet diameters all day, but the real fact is WHERE you put the bullet and WHAT the bullet construction is. THAT's what it's all about, not splitting hairs or talking minutia.

All you have to do is read up on what many of the well known early African hunters used and how many animals they killed, to get a better focus. They didn't shoot their game in the ass even with the largest calibers of the day and expect the animal to roll over. And all you need to do is kill a few dozen deer, moose and elk with a small 25 cal rifle...in the right place...to see through the smoke and mirrors of the ADMAN's rhetoric.

No matter what you do, decisions will always be second guessed and you will forever wonder...That's why it's best to have LOTS of different calibers to play with and not be limited in any way.

Enjoy your toys

Another possibility is the .375 Weatherby. Factory ammo is 300 gr Nosler Partitions, however, Superior Ammunition can supply whatever you want at reasonable cost.

quote:

Originally posted by lengleng:
As far as being able to shoot a good size gun, I can handle anything reasonable (big guy).

Your "size" make very little difference in how well you handle recoil. Mostly, recoil tolorance is between your EARS. Robgunbuilder is only about 160 lbs, and he enjoys shooting his 600 OK, recoil is more than his body weight. I weigh 65 lbs more than Rob, but my recoil limit is around 115 lbs.

Like BFJ said, go fine some big bores to shoot and see where you max comfort level is, with good accuracy. Going from 300RUM to 375H&H will be an easy step up and will get the job done on your buff hunt.

Keith

I believe in working your way up. You need to get used to shooting big bores. They bark louder and bite harder.

So, when I was in your shoes, I moved up to a .375 before obtaining a couple of .416s, a .458 and ultimately, at least so far, a .500.

Work your way up. That way, you'll develop your confidence, and even, God forbid, be able to decide whether you've reached your limit before you've unwittingly exceeded it!

Borrowing and shooting a big bore that you're thinking of moving up to is also a good idea for the same reasons.

i shoot a .300, a 338, a 375H&h, a 416 rem mag.. all on m70's....and don't handload yet....the cheapest federal 270 gr 375 ammo is around $43/box... the .416 will cost at least $80/box....so if cost is a concern, stay with the .375.... my 458 win mag ruger #1h shoots 350gr federal premium's for around $46/box...

Hello,
Permit me to suggest that you purchase a Ruger RSM in 458 Lott, purchase a Kick Killer lace up recoil pad, start with moderate 458 Win Mag loads and work up to the maximum loads and shoot off hand, no bags, stand up with sling, etc. and over time, not that long actually, you will be holding those shots in the 9 ring, or some 18" and with more paractice , closer to the 10 ring at 100 yards, or some 4-6". No targets?? Take a 9" pie plate at 100 yards, paint black, fire five shots and see how many hit the plate. Excellent practice and do so with iron/issue sights. Scopes can come later. Good Luck.

driver,

He shoots lefthanded.

George

I would re read MacD37s post. The problem is with out any experience with big bores it is hard to tell what your tolerance to recoil is. You can most times become accustom to heavier recoil by working up to a bigger heavier kicking rifle in stages. I am a firm believer in using all the new devises to reduce recoil. I would use a Past recoil shield or some similar devise and perhaps a recoil reducer in the stock “or 2â€.
What I am trying to get to is if you feel; it is going to hurt when you pull the trigger you won’t train enough to be the best shot you can be.

Yes I am sure the 9.3 crowd would be verrey vocal if we were talking Doubles but in a bolt gun I will recommend the .375 H&H over the 9.3. The 9.3 is considered by many to be totally adequate for the Buff and the .375 has more and perhaps better bullets than the 9.3
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by lengleng:
I know you can't go wrong with everybodys favorite a 375H&H for so many reasons, but its not much bigger than my 300RUM.

Your problem won't be recoil tolerance, if you can shoot a 300RUM, you can shoot up to the .458Lott IMO. The fact you want to use factory ammo points you solidly to the .375h&h, if nothing else, it has the widest assortment of factory ammo. If you are willing to handload, I would certainly go w/ a 42caliber, Rigby, Rem. or .404jeffery. There is just enough extra terminal perf. on DG to make them worthwhile & still versatile enough for PG hunting.

quote:

Yes I am sure the 9.3 crowd would be verrey vocal if we were talking Doubles but in a bolt gun I will recommend the .375 H&H over the 9.3. The 9.3 is considered by many to be totally adequate for the Buff and the .375 has more and perhaps better bullets than the 9.3
Bill

As a member of the 9.3 crowd here's my 2cents
I have a 9.3x64 and a 375 H&H, there is, as far as I can tell, little if any to choose between them in killing power.
However it's much easier to carry my 9.3 on a 98 action than a 375 on a magnum action. More than that, my 9.3 comes to the shoulder quicker and points better too.
Whilst I don't know as yet that either are under threat from the new 375 Ruger I would want to have a look at and perhaps shoot one before deciding on which 375 to purchase.
The Ruger is worth some serious consideration. Let's hope Hornady hurry up and bring out some ammunition.
Good luck.

In 2004 I was just where you are now, left handed and the biggest gun that I owned was a 300 WSM. I bought a left handed M70 in 375 H&H and I couldn't be happier. I actually prefer shooting it over any of my other magnums. At 10+ lbs it has a slower, softer recoil pulse than either my 300WSM or my 7Mag and much easier to shoot.

As a matter of fact, I just ordered a new barrel and am ordering a replacement bolt head to convert my 300WSM into a 22.250. At least I'll shoot that gun now.


My advice is that everyone should own a 375 H&H

Here's my thoughts on the subject.

I always knew I would own a big bore some day for that once in a lifetime Buffalo hunt.

I first bought a CZ 375 H&H. That gun would just plain shoot. It was a great gun, recoil wasn't an issue. I could shoot and shoot and shoot that rifle. Recoil was not a problem at all.

I ended up getting rid of it for a couple of reasons.
First was that gun was just too heavy to carry as an all around rifle that the cartridge is.
Second was the fact that if I ever go on that Buffalo hunt I don't want to be using the minimum legal caliber.

After considerable research and reading the posts of the experienced guys here on AR. Here's what I gathered; the 375 worked, the 416's hit harder, and the 458's hit alot harder at both ends.

I shot a guys Dakota 458 WM at the range twice. I flat didn't like it. Recoil was more than I wanted.

So I ended up buying another CZ in 416 Rigby. I like CZ's and how can one pass up the nostalgia of the Rigby. I shot this combo and didn't find the recoil objectionable.

I sent it off to a smith to give it a going through. When I get it back, I plan on running a bunch of 350gr bullets with milds loads through it. I will then gradually work up a 400gr load in the 2350-2400 fps range and shoot that a bunch.

So my advice is to go the 416 something route, but most importantly find a gun you really like. The actual cartridge is secondary. I think the 416 caliber will give you the step up you need from your current cartridges.

I am still toying with the next rifle idea. I am constantly going back and forth between 9.3 something and 375 something. I really thought I wanted a 9.3x64 Brenneke, then the Ruger 375 news breaks. The classic 375 H&H is always there. Then there's the African working man's 9.3x62.

Good luck with your decision.

One great combination, without too much overlap: the 416 Rigby CZ and a CZ FS in 9,3x62. When you get there, the PH will laud your decision. The 9,3 with 250gr bullets is a great 300 yard gun on everything, and loaded with 286gr Nosler Partitions will do for buff very well...or the 375 minimum would not have been amended to include the two 9,3 cartridges. Kevin "Doktari" Robertson states unequivocably that his 9,3x62 with 286gr solids at 2300fps MV has accounted for over 600 Cape Buffalo!!! Bring 20 rounds with the 250gr Nosler Accu-Bond at 2500, for instance, and 10 with the 286gr Partition at 2400, and if something should go wrong with the 416R you have a back up that doesn't take a back seat to anybody. Your bullet choice may vary, but this will work!

Rich
DRSS
CZ fan

WOW
Thanks for all of the replys! I have read each and every one and like all of the different opinions. I knew the 375H&H would be a favorite, and I just might end up with one yet. I still want to do more research into something a little bigger. I know bullet placement is far more important than size, but why not both? I know everybody on this site is a "good shot" but I consider myself to be very good too. I just got back from my 1st trip to Africa where I took 6 animals with my 300rum and 1 with my 06'. I shot only shot 9 bullets (1 extra to put a wildebeest out of its misery and one at a 1" dot 100 yards away to show my PH I could center the dot with 1 shot, his response "put it away-time to hunt" ). Some shots were tougher than others but when your PH tells you "you are turly one of the best shots I have ever seen" it gives you a whole bunch of confidence! I am half deaf (so my wife says) so noise does not bother my much. I am 6'4 300 and bench press 455, not that it impresses anybody on here, but I can shoot that 300rum all day and never flinch. I can't imagine a 416 kicking that much harder to change anything. Again thanks for all the good advice, thats why I am on here asking the experts!

1 gun I didn't see mentioned yet was the 375RUM. When looking on Remingtons website the balistics almost equal a 416. What about using whatever gun I pick on Brown bear? Change anybodys opinion?

I would opt for a .416 Rigby.................200 gr bullets in your .300 RUM and 400 gr bullets in your .416 good pair IMHO.

If you want conveniece get a .458 of some type.

If rifle weight is a factor go 375 HH. You can get a nice 8-9 lb package. If weight no object 416 RM or 416 Rigby. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Get a 458 Lott. You can load the lighter weight bullets to high velocity for extended range on smaller game and then load up some 500 grainers to 2300 -2400 fps for the big stuff.

I do use 200 grain Swift A-Frames in my 300rum and loved them, they performed awesome. Thats why I can't imagine a 375 making a good "pair" with that gun. But we will see. Thanks again for the advice.

Hello George/Moderator,
Flew right past that part about being a lefty, but what the heck, one must learn to adapt and improvise in a fast moving world, right??
Have an old XC match shooter friend who always used a very much used '03 NM Springfield and he was a lefty but yet could manage to get the 10 rounds off under 60 seconds from sitting and usually scored in the mid to high 90's. Age tends to moderate one's ability to determine his left from right. Sorry about that, but would still vote for the 458 Lott.

Here is a suggestion from left field. You could make your 300 rum a switch barrel rifle. It would save you buying a new rifle just need a new barrel in whatever caliber you want.
I would be tempted to go with 458 lott. Big bores kill buffalo quicker. Elmer was right.
Regards
hjl

quote:

Originally posted by hjl:
Here is a suggestion from left field. You could make your 300 rum a switch barrel rifle. It would save you buying a new rifle just need a new barrel in whatever caliber you want.
I would be tempted to go with 458 lott. Big bores kill buffalo quicker. Elmer was right.
Regards
hjl

interesting suggestion, but sounds too easy
can you elaborate a little more?
I assume you mean a permanent change and not go back and forth? I don't want to change this gun, I like it alot and it is very effictive on plains game as a 300RUM

buy a lott and an RCBS supreme reloading kit, and 1000 remington 405s ...

learn to reload, and shoot A LOT..

load the remmies down to 2150 and go play with your rifle and work up to about 2400 ...

then start seriously training with 500gr bullets, start at 2000 this time...


a box of lott is about 70 bucks, at midway...
100piece of brass, dies, and the reloading kit is about 350... or 5 boxes of bullets...

add 120 for the 405s, and about the same for the powder and primers, you are about 600 bucks into it.. for 1000 rounds... you'll get 10 reloads out of plinker 405s....

60¢ a shot, where you get to build up and train like all get out....

vs $3.50 a shot

1000 shots vs 171 factory shots...


and yeah, you will be lightyears ahead of trying to cough up 70 bucks a box of ammo.


i WISH i had had the sense to ask, and then just bought a CZ in the 458 win (then rechambered) and did it exactly this way.


jeffe

If you only intend to hunt one cape buff, does it make sense to buy a 458 Win, Lott or 416? Your buying a rifle for one animal. Get a 375 H&H or possibly the new 375 Ruger and you will get much more use out of it in this country than one of the bigger bores and still have plenty of horse power for the buff.

465H&H

The 458 win mag is about dead these days .Its a good caliber but not nearly as popular as it was.The 375 H&H is a good caliber but on the bigger stuff I want all the gun I can shoot.My favorite big bore gun is the 416 rem mag.Its cheap to relad for and does not knock your head off when you shoot it.I use 350 gr speer mag tips for practice and smaller game around 2400 fps.There are bullets fromn 300 gr to 410 .I like its all around use and big game knock down power.I have 6 of them and love that caliber.I have fired over 2000 rounds and always enjoy shooting my 416s .

Lengleng..........

Whereabouts in SW PA are ya?? If you wanna cut your eyeteeth on a bigger gun you're welcome to shoot mine (it's a "righty" but for illustrative purposes it'll do). It's an 8 1/2 lb. .375 Wby. which is on the smallish side of big. But I believe it may give you somewhat of an idea as to what you may expect by going on up the food chain. There's a bit of snow on my bench at the moment and the air's a little thin tonight. But if you want, we can work something out.

So left handed and Rem 700 and you use and like the 300 RUM Left hand Rem 700 416 Rem Mag .. Or 375 RUM... Both of which will work great on black bear and hogs and the 416 if you load a 400 gr bullet to 2150 fps is a nice deer load!!!!!! you can eat right up to the bullet hole.......But Jeffoso is not a bit wrong either and is totally right on concerning the Lott... I would stick with the long bolt throw of the magnum length action .......The 458 win is a great round but the Lott is easier to deal with ......I would see if the custom shop would flute the 416 barrel and shoot 350 gr Tri Shocks moly coated exclusively on safari.... have some solids if you needed them .. JMHO If it was me I would use the 300 gr Xbullet @ 2900 fps....

I suggest as others have that you shoot some of the larger calibers before you make a choice. I was in your exact same position 5 years ago. I had been shooting REM 700's for years, an -06 for deer and a 300RUM for elk. When I was going on my first safari, I got a 375 H&H M70 and shoot almost nothing else since. But the 375 kicks considerably more than a 300RUM and you must get used to it.

So many good suggestions. I do appreciate them all. It does sound like a good idea to shoot a bigger gun first.
I might take you up on that offer when the weather gets a little nicer Strut10. I live outside of Uniontown.
It does seem like the 375HH, 375RUM, and the 416Rem might be a little more versital of my "big gun" choices. Especially if a 458 kicks that much harder, although I like the idea of loading it down to get used to it. I'd like to get good and comfortable with this gun and use it for other big game besides Buffalo like Brown Bear.
Id like to be able to shoot very acurately but also hit hard. The 416 and 375RUM seem to be the average. 375HH smallest but easiest to shoot. 458 biggest but kicks hardest.
We will see, if I shoot Strut10's 375 that might be all the gun I want!

I'm about 1 1/2 hrs. north of you. Let me know (when it warms up a snad) if you're still interested. We'll hook you up.