I was looking at this site,

http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html

My first thought was what is this little rifle like to shoot? Sounds like a lot of energy coming out of a 16 1/2 barrel. It also does seem like there is a lot of wt. to this little mule either.

Have any of you folks fired or own one?

What do you think about the take-down option? Do you feel it is a weak point that may lead to failure?

My personal opinion on this is: If you want a short barreled lever gun,just buy the Marlin guide gun. the co-pilot is a neat idea,I owned one about three years ago,not bad in 45-70,but it also cost 900 and change to have it built,the people over at Wild West guns are the worst in the world to deal with!

Seems like a very short barrel for those ballistics?

I believe that Marlin actually stole the "guide gun" idea from Jim West. Wild West does make an extremely nice rifle, but I personally will not buy anything from Jim West because of the way he treated me once in his shop. He can be a real dikhed if you don`t agree with him.

hoss101- dont feel like the loneranger my friend! I had a couple of very negative expirences with him also,as well as two of the guys I work with!

Try Jim Brockman, he maks a neat shortie...thats a lot of gun going off under my bifocals...I like the long barrels as I have never seen the need for a carbine except for hunting horseback....

As an owner of a 50 Alaskan built by WWG, I will say that they were right on the money when I was told it would take 6 months to build, almost to the day. However, the concept of customer service seems to be a foreign concept to jim and the mutt that usually works the cash register, whatever his name is. Jim is extremely argumentative, arrogant and to say he is a dickhead if he disagrees with you is an understatement. Just try and talk to him about an idea of yours and he will show his true colors, that of a person that seems to think he "knows it all" - the rifles they build are good quality in spite of the arrogant shits working there - these are the reasons why I will never buy anything from WWG or recommend them to anyone - take Ray's advice and contact Brockman for a lever gun if that is what you want; other gunsmiths build good levers, check out Dave Clay and possibly John Ricks - KMule

Boy..........that is pretty bad when this many people have had a bad experience at WWG. The 2 guys to talk to in there were pricks. They won't ever see any of my money either!

Slightly off tune here, but there are a lot of ways to come up with a very potent compact rifle, without spending $1,000+ dollars. I once had a "Dutch National Police" mauser...36in long and 8X57 naturally. It was superbly built by FN and was like hunting with a switch in your hand due to it's size. It would make a pretty good Alaska tote around rifle as is. Or if someone just felt they needed more, open it up to 8mm/06.

I think a person could have one hell of a rifle for under $400. One I would feel just as safe with as any of the WWG guns.

[ 02-17-2003, 11:02: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

I guess I'll add a minority opinion here. I've done a bit of business with Jim at his shop. He customized a rifle for me and I also purchased one of his "Alaskan Guide" Marlin rifles.

He completed the custom work on my rifle right on the schedule he originally quoted. The rifle shoots wonderfully and is a lot lighter than when he started.

My "Alaska Guide" gun also is a masterpiece. The action and trigger are a lot smoother than original and his version of "Ghost Ring" sights are excellent. I had him install his "scout" type mid-barrel scope mount topped with a Leupold IER scope. Adding to Ray's comment on using a carbine for horseback hunting, in Alaska ATVs are a lot more common mode of travel than horses and a short rifle fits nicely across the front on a rack without sticking out past the fenders. I personnally didn't need a take-down rifle as his Co-Pilot design's primary application is for carrying as a backup in bush planes.

I would not hesitate to have WWG do more work for me. I just wish I hadn't moved away from Alaska.

[ 02-17-2003, 20:12: Message edited by: Toomany Tools ]

I've fired one a couple of times, and would agree that just picking up a Marlin guide gun would be a better option.

As to Marlin steeling the design, it was WW's previous gunmsith that designed the gun, not West. You can count me with the majority of others that don't have much regard for WWG's.

If you want something small and compact, there are some fairly powerful handguns that do the job. If you want a serious power rifle, then get one, ie one capable of 2400 fps with heavy for caliber bullets.

This guy must really be a piece of work to have ticked off so many of you guys. So much that most of the responces are about him vs. acctually shooting the rifle.

I really appreciate the feedback. This seems like a great site, with members with a strong knowlegde base.

If I may try again. What is this like to shoot?

Considering I had a 9# 458 lott I was shooting the same day my buddy had his co-pilot, I cannot provide a useful description of what it was like to shoot

It didn't seem that bad to shoot, and as I recall, was fairly accurate. It was a couple years back, so I don't recall that much.

The 45-70 co-pilot I had,shot just fine. Very accurate,1.5" groups at 100yds,that was with fairly "stiff" 350grainers. Recoil was not bad off the bench. I sold the rifle to finance another rifle I was having built at the time. Yes Jim West is an arrogant prick,The last time I was in his shop was 1995,had some disasagreement over some work that was done on a 45 auto. there are plenty of other very competent gunsmiths out there that could put together a short barreled thumper for you.

Boss Kongoni - to address the rifle, yes it is well made - mine is a .50 ak and not a take down - wood stock and hard chromed - yes, the sights are good, I spent lots of time on mine to keep them from shaking loose from recoil - the first 40-60 rounds really loosened the rifle, needed to tighten everything on a very routine basis, then it settled in (i.e. green Loctite) - the rifle is fun to shoot, no scope for me as I use as a carry rifle, total weight with five rounds is slightly over 7 pounds - sighted in a + 1" at 50 yards and a stout load of RE7 in front of a 500 grain Kodiak, I get velocities of 1875 +/- 25 FPS - this is not a max load, can maybe squeeze 50 FPS more but don't need it - it is not abusive at all to shoot, does have a nice shove and some muzzle jump, but not harsh at all - groups well, minute of moose or bear no problem - have used both reformed 348 winchester brass and the starline brass, have tried 435 and 525 WFNGC bullets (nice) and 450 / 500 grain jacketed plus a shortened AMAX bullet (originally for a 50BMG) that weighed 600 grains - single feed only for that rascal - like I said, it is a fun rifle to load and shoot, works well and has been reliable in all kinds of weather other than high temperatures (don't have much high temp here)- all in all a good rifle - and other smiths can build similar products without all the garbage spewing arrogance and know it all mentality of WWG and its employees - buy from someone that treats their customers with respect!!! KMule

Paul H.& Diesel Dude - Thank you for getting back to the topic.

Ray - I booked marked Jim Brockman site, thank you.

I got interested in this after seeing one of the T/D 45-70 on one of the auction sites. I checked West's site and saw that the auction rifle was at retail, and lost interest. That's when I saw the .50 Alaskain option.

I doupt I order a new one now however, a "Pre-Shot" one at a fair price may be worth it. After all there is a spot in the gun case.

KMule - We must be posting at the same time. Thanks for the info.

Hey Boss, If you are looking to get into a short lever gun,definately check out Brockmans web site. The gunsmith that does all my work is currently working on a 50 Alaskan on a Model 71 winchester,should be pretty neat when he is done with it. He has also done some wrk on some of the marlin guide guns,triggerjobs,sights,scout scope mounts etc,he is also a very decent man,easy to talk to about ideas! Good luck.

Kmule & Diesel,

"Arrogance" hardly begins to describe those yokels at WWG!

Juneau, THANK YOU!!

Toomany Tools, I agree with you. I too regret having moved away from Alaska. BUT, I'd much prefer to be in N.M. or Colorado than in PA or NY!!

I feel the need to interject here. To answer the original question: I have shot the Wild West Guide Gun quite a bit, (My brother is TooMany Tools) and it is amazing to me how fun the gun is, how comfortable to shoot and accurate out to at least 100 yard. for back up in Alaska or hunting in thick brush where shots are limited, there is not another gun I would rather carry. I have met Jim West and other than him being quiet and somewhat introverted, I found nothing about him to be distasteful or offensive.

FWIW- Mark

Eldeguello,
If you want to trade, I would gladly move to Madison County N.Y. I grew up (sort of) in Up-state NY, and now that my kids are getting to the age where I want to take them hunting, New Mexico is a pretty rough place to take a 9 or 10 year old. I really miss the small game and whitetail hunting. Don't get me wrong, I love NM. The diversity of the big game is awesome, and the terain is spectacular.

RENRAF-Not disputing the fact that the CO-pilot is a fine weapon,especially for thick brush and close encounters of the furry kind. I met Jim West when he first had his little gunsmith shop off Old Seward Hwy,he was quiet then,I guess after Guns and Ammo does a story on you it is okay to start treating customers like shit and not listening to them FWIW!

KMuleinAK, Fair enough, very cool link BTW.

As i work at Wild west guns I should say sorry for everybodies hassels. Those couple of us gunsmiths that work there just work in the back doing the best job we can. Please don't hold all the gunsmiths at WWG responsible for customer relations. Thanks

Hey guys I also work at WWG, Steve told me about this post. This is nothing we havn't heard before. I'll ask you to please check out http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/forum/akhuntforum/ or do a yahoo search for 'Alaska Hunting Forum' and look at the 45/70 sucess stories post for a more comprehensive explaination of whats going on and apology from the people behind the scenes. Most of us hate seeing posts like this even though there doesn't seem to be a whole lot we can do about it at this time.

Aaron, Damon, and other Wild West gunsmiths....Just wanted to let you know that you guys do GREAT work!! Your Co-Pilot is still at the top of my list for a "someday" gun. I even like Ken! It was the way that Jim treated me personally that prevents me from doing business with him. I still come and drool over the rifles sometimes, but I refuse to buy anything from Jim anymore. If I ever buy a Co Pilot, it will have to be used. It`s alright, as I think you guys will survive without me. Anyway, thanks for making yourselves known on the board, and keep up the good work...the more you make, the more likely it is I can find a used one!