I'm considering buying a Searcy PH .470. I'm not set up to reload for it, (although I may eventually do so), and commercial ammo is all that is available to me.

A Square offers a "Lion Load." I seem to recall having read that this is an ineffective load. Any comments? Thanks.

My understanding is that the Lion Load is a soft point that tends to open quite a bit faster than the other bullets...the Dead-Tough, I believe they call it.
Look at pgs. 162 and 163 of Art's book "Any Shot You Want"....he gives a description of each of his "Triad" of bullets.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I seem to remember that Ganyana may have posted about it. Did you do a search? There may be some info around here somewhere.

Edit:

a post by Saeed

Previous thread

Another one

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I did not go through all the search results.

I've had a few client use 'em and although I don't consider them the worst of the bunch I don't consider them anywhere near the best either........ certainly not a patch on the Woodleigh SP when loaded at the correct velocities.

The lion load is perfect for leopard and a lion side on. there is a long story (humorous) written up in magnum years ago where a .458 lion load didn't make it through the chest muscles on a wounded lion. For a client with a double, you could always load a lion load in the rt barrel and a dead tough in the left - or just use Federal premium or Norma loaded with Woodleighs.

On one trip to Africa one of the first questions the PH asked me was what kind of bullets I was using. I told him Barnes TSX and he said great. I asked if he had a preference and he said he was fine with any of the premium bullets, but he got real nervous when people showed up with Lion Loads.

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it.

I used the Lion load on some Eland and Kudu and a few Mule Deer. Based on their fast expansion I wouldn't even consider using them on a Lion.

I still like the RN Woodleighs on plainsgame and they are perfect for Lion, Leopard, and about everything else come to think of it...

I would not choose a bullet that must have the perfect presentation of an animal for it to perform. I would choose a bullet that would work when things go wrong. The dead tough is a better choice.

I shot a lion in Zimbabwe with my 450/400 3 1/4" double rifle.

First shot, the lion facing me, hit him center chest, he rolled right over, second shot hit right chest, exited behind the shoulder, reentered the body, du to the angle of the ground where he layed. Both shots @90 myards.

I ran up to him and fired an insurance shot into the top of his back between the shoulders, distance 1 to 2 feet.

Bullets 400gr Woodleigh softs. All bullets were recovered from the lion, perfectly mushroomed.

NO flimsy fragmenting bullets on lion for me.

I spent some time with Joe Want on Kodiak and he told me they killed bears faster than any other bullet he'd used in his 500 Express.

Jetdriver,

Even the A Square Dead Tough is a pretty soft bullet.

The core appears to have quite a bit of tin in it so it fractures easily.

My 465 grain .458 blew off its front end at fairly low velocity and ended up a wadcutter.

If you want a nice soft that opens quickly Id try the Woodleigh RN or even the Swift, in your file, and the Kodiak if shooting a .458.

Both are alot more versatile than the Lion Load.

Andy

Joe Want did prefer the A square lion loads in his 500 Nitro dbl (it was an honest H&H Royal too) but Joe also said he always fired both barrels and that he had a number of big bears get back up after being put down.
He sold the H&H a few years ago and picked up a Ruger 416 Rigby and wasn't using lion loads anymore.

Andy Runyon also liked light weight bullets as they opened fast as he thought they killed faster.

My experience is that yes they can kill faster on broadside shots but stouter bullets are more reliable for less then perfect hits and for shots lengthwise thru the animal.

In big bores if you like soft softs the Woodleighs are the way to go. Swifts and Kodiaks are in the middle and Barnes TSX, GS and Nosler partitions the toughest.

In addition to the factory loads, don't forget custom loaders such as Safari Arms and Superior Ammo. They could tailor a load for you. I believe you can send your rifle to Superior and they will develop a load(s) for you.

I have also heard that Hornady will be producing .470NE in the very near future.

Just some options for the non reloader.

Good Luck.

RCG

If you look at the back history of hunting, with guns, you will find that inadequate penetration, and fragmenting bullets, have caused hunters a lot more problems than overpenetration.

It is better in my opinion to err on the side of a bullet that might be a little to "tough", rather than one that is too "soft".

However with the large selection of todays bullets, it is not hard to pick a bullet that has great expansion, and holds together to give great penetration.

I've heard the same reviews of the lion loads, too soft and not enough penetration. I hear the A-Square Dead Tough Softpoints are very good though.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by RCG:
In addition to the factory loads, don't forget custom loaders such as Safari Arms and Superior Ammo. They could tailor a load for you. I believe you can send your rifle to Superior and they will develop a load(s) for you.

I have also heard that Hornady will be producing .470NE in the very near future.

Just some options for the non reloader.

Good Luck.

RCG

Thanks. I like Superior. Had Larry load up some Speer tungsten solids for me in .375, as my crimp was insufficient to properly hold the bullet, and also some loads for my .300 RUM. They do good work, and I will likely use them again.

I've had excellent luck with A Frames in my limited African experience, also in .375 and 7mm Rem. Thought they might be too tough for lion.

If things progress I may go for lion in 2010 if I'm still kicking, and a .470 with the right bullet sounds like the right combination.

I have used Kola down at Stars and Stripes ammo in Florida. He does good work and can do anything you want. A very knowledgeable fellow to boot.

That's interesting. I used to buy a lot of Stars and Stripes .45 ACP at gun shows when I lived in Miami. Still have some. It's nice to know he can work up loads for a double, and looking at your signature lines, it seems you should know.

Jetdriver,

I would not worry about the Swift not being "soft" enough for lion in a 470 Searcy.

I think 2250 fps is a pretty std load for the Searcy.

That is 100-150 fps faster than most loads in a .458 WM.

Nice thing about using the Swift is that you would have one soft point for everything.

Andy

Just to put something of a different spin on things I'll relate a couple of experiences that I've had with Lion Loads.
#1 Buffalo at about twenty yards from a rest, slightly quartering away with a .505 Gibbs 525 grain Lion Load (factory). One shot tight behind the shoulder and into the atria. Instant kill. Heart and lungs were literally shredded. Only fragments of lead and jacket were ever found.
#2 Buffalo at about sixty yards, slightly quartering away with an identical point of impact with the same load. Instant kill with the bullet found in the inside of the off shoulder looking much like a silver dollar only bigger in diameter.
#3 Shot several deer with 300 grain Lion Load handloads in a .375 H&H. All chest shots with softball sized exits through the ribs. Very thorough and instant kills.
#4 Buffalo at forty yards with a .470 Nitro Express 500 grain Woodleigh (factory load) on the point of the shoulder of an animal quartering on. Bullet was found in the joint space of the targeted shoulder having penetrated only a few inches. Buffalo run quite well into the thick palmetto on three legs incidentally.

Inyati, would you agree that the Dead Tough soft point from A-Square are a better choice for buff?

Chuck

chuck375
Without a doubt. I've recovered a few Dead Touch .505 and ..416's and found them to be just as advertised.
I'm simply passing what experience I've had with the Lion Loads under rather controlled conditions. I'm NOT recommending them, and Art Alpin wouldn't either I'm certain.

For the life of me I can't remember where I read it, but Finn Aagaard, who amongst others wrote many of the comments in the ASq Book Any Shot You Want, later stated that he would not use the Lion Load bullet.

I would use woodleigh bullets 500gr in my 458 Lott. If I was lion hunting.