According to the MRI I had last week, and the doc I saw this week, that's why my right, and shooting, shoulder hurts so much.

I had arthroscopic shoulder surgery about a year ago to remove built up scar tissue in that shoulder - adhesive capsulitis is what the doc called it.

The shoulder has hurt since that surgery. I haven't fired any rifle bigger than a .338 Win. Mag. in that time. But none of the shooting seemed to make things worse.

But somehow as a result of some physical strain or activity, maybe cumulative, I managed to tear the rotator cuff and the biceps tendon in the same shoulder.

Anyway, I need another arthroscopic surgery to repair the rotator cuff and reattach the tendon. A couple of steel pins and some sutures and a lot of the doc's elbow grease will be involved, or so I'm told. Nine to twelve months to full recovery, if all goes well.

Has anybody else been through this? Has it affected your ability to shoot big bore rifles? I'm worried about it and would appreciate any information anyone who has had this surgery can provide.

Thanks.

I wish you a full recovery, but until then is there a light-recoiling .375 flanged in your plans?

Unfortunately I cannot help but I wish you a speedy recovery.

Never been through it myself, but good luck and I'm sure you can get back into big bores in time.

Unless your surgeon/osteopath is a shooter, they will have no idea what effect shooting will have on your shoulder.

George

/

Been there, had the surgery done twice but just kept tearing it again. Came across a local Doc here that told be about something called Prolotherapy. Sounded nuts at the time but hey one injection and a week or two of discomfort sounded like a good risk to take over another cutting.

The surgery got me back to 85-90% or so but the Prolotherapy got me to 100% and no problems. Complete motion no pain. I've sent a few very skeptical friends to see him and everyone is a big time believer now. FWIW

Got the shooting shoulder done about fifteen years ago. In my case the super spinosa muscle bundle (docs, does that sound right?) was detached from the shoulder blade in a fall shooting from some serious up and down rock formations. Took a header from about twenty feet up and my brain opted to let me fall as I hit to protect a pair of Leica Geovids.
My diagnosis was an entire year off shooting anything bigger than CB caps. Six or seven years later, I split the opposite muscle group in a Ranger Companies Reunion jump. Just a static line jump from 4500feet. That was spring of 1998...take about eight more months off. A year later I got back into shooting big bores, and no problems to date, although I do have it looked at every year when I get my annual. If you have a good cutter it can come back in a year (IMHO) to 98-99%. I have shot an awful lot of bruisers, like seventy-five rounds of 6600ft/lbs ME loads in the past three weeks from a 505 Gibbs and feel good. NO aches, no twinges.

Be sure you get the best cutter money can rent! Good luck!!

Rich

ALF

Just curious - are the drills you use in surgery 1:10 or 1:18 twist?

Bummer, dude. Appears that there is a good chance of 100% recovery though. The best of luck to you.

quote:

Just curious - are the drills you use in surgery 1:10 or 1:18 twist? Big Grin

You used the word!! .......never use the word "twist"

I have not had any surgery yet, delaying anything to the back as long as possible (3 discs with tears, premature degeneration in vertebrae and discs, all on MRI about 6 years ago at 23). BUT, I have learned something about picking a doctor.

One of the best ways to select a surgeon, talk to the specialists in that type of therapy in your area. For instance, my brother and uncle both have had their hands operated on, my good friends dad is the local expert on hand rehabilitation therapy (ex- air force medical). Neither my brother or my uncle went to the guys that in discussions my friends dad said he would have gone with. They were recommended surgeons, but not the ones this guy who gets patients from all over, would have sent them to. My brother has little use of that finger and my uncle problems with his hand.

Just one recommendation. Maybe it will help you. From a non-medical I will support what Alf says from viewing many friends, if you get a great physical therapist and do EVERYTHING they say it will be the difference between shooting thumpers again and learning to shoot left handed. I know many people that have had joint replacements, knee and hip. The ones thatt were religious in doing what they were told made full recoveries and are 100%, the ones that "skipped" or "stopped treatment early" still have problems (kind of funny actually, my wife's grandfather had double knee replacement, did what he was told and is 100$, he's in his mid 70's and might need the knees 10 more years. Got a friend that is in his mid 30's and injured one knee, had minor in comparison surgery and half-assed his therapy, dumb shit has problems still, and needs his for another 40 years perhaps).

Doctors are amazing, technology amazing. Best of results to you, keep us posted.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
George S:

Having the privilege of annually attending the AAOS in the USA,and being an affiliate member I can but say you underestimate the genius of your top specialists in the USA, they are by far the finest academics and practicing surgeons in the world! These guys are in my book the gold medalists in their field. Sadly many if most of them never shoot a gun but they know more about the field of orthopaedics and specific joints than you give them credit for. You dont need to shoot a gun to know what you can or should not do !

Alf,
It wasn't my intention to denigrate surgeons and osteopaths; I was pointing out that non-shooters do not have a frame of reference for evaluating the effects of recoil on the repaired parts. They might think all recoil is a sharp impulse of short duration (say, .300Wby in a 7.5lb rifle) as opposed to a slower impulse of long duration (say, .375H&H in a 9.5lb rifle).

George

WOW and sorry to hear this. Hope you heal well.

I recovered from back fussion, do it can be done.

jeffe

I had a rotator cuff tear in my shooting shoulder about 9 years ago (not from shooting). It doesn't affect my shooting but the biggest rifle I shoot is my .404j. I can only give you some advice. Let the shoulder heal for the amount of time perscribed. Get into a good workout regime using weights to strengthen your shoulder muscles. Stretch before & after weight training. Stretch before shooting. Yeah I know, it sucks getting old.

mrlexma, I' m sorry to hear this, especially about it happening to someone who shoots large rifles! I wish you a full, and speedy recovery!

I think the advice given by ALF is a much better guide to your next move, than anything else offered here, though some of the advice is good! I certainly don't want to give the empression that I know anything about the machanics of this procedure. I do, hoewever, have a small insight into the effects of aftercare involved.

Before I retired I had two employees who both went through this surgery, with different outcomes. This, IMO, was not because of a differece in the surgeries, but of each man's adherence to aftercare!

These two guys, about the same age, were sent to a long theropy session of about eight months. One man worked through the pain and did what he was told to do, the other did not! One year later, the man who did what he was told, was back to work with full use of his arm & shoulder in six months. The other man was still carrying his arm in a sling three years later, when he died. His death had nothing to do with the surgery, but the fact is, he was never to use the shoulder again, and I'm sure his lack of participation in his theropy was the cause of his not getting better. I know this because our insurance was paying for their treatment, and we got periodic reports on their progress.

As Alf says, what ever they tell you to do, do it!, Hopefully your shoulder will heal properly, and you will be back shooting Elephant in time!

...........GOOD LUCK

For what its worth, long term use of silicea from your health shop disolves adhesions and promotes the reabsorbsion of scar tissue. long term but deep acting.
Dr Neal
PS.
That doesnt preclude any other advice, just trying to help

Mrlexma,

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, and hope you recover fully.

Thanks for the good wishes and encouragement, and also for the practical advice.

It's good to hear that we have some folks here who've been through this and haven't been too badly affected as far as their shooting goes.

I have an excellent doctor (he is the team physician for two of Boston's professional sports teams), and I will not do anything foolish. I will follow his advice and do the therapy.

In any case, I have to get this done, and I guess I'll find out in a year or so how it works out.

Thanks again.

I had a ligament repair in my shooting shoulder years ago. I dropped back from a 30'06 to a 243 for a season. I was offered the chance to touch off a 505 Gibbs during my recovery but I was pretty sure it would void my surgeon's warranty. Perhaps this will serve as your excuse to buy a 9.3x74R... Good luck to you and may you enjoy a speedy and complete recovery.

Back in my ball playing days I tore up some stuff.

I learned to shoot left handed and it worked out well.

Plus as things got better I now can shoot off of either side pretty much equally well.

Just a thought.

Mark D

mrlexma,
I worked as an engineer for a company that designed hip, knee and shoulder joint replacement implants for 8 years. I worked closely with the design engineer of the shoulder implants.
The shoulder depends on the soft tissure to keep the humerus properly postioned on the glenoid.
I can only suggest 2 things. Be sure to use a doctor that specializes in shoulders. Many of the knee and hip docs are a bit afraid of shoulders because they are more difficult to get the best results from. The other thing is absolutely do the best you possibly can to get the best therapy after surgery.
Brushing your teeth, tying your shoes and wiping your butt are all major issues if your shoulder does not work.

I'll echo Marc's experience.

Tore mine in June 1991 (Playing the faggified game of softball, for pity's sake). The whole key was doing my rehab daily for ten months and a few days. Daily. Daily, and exactly as the therapist showed me. Find a sadistic therapist. Oops, they are all sadistic. Last day I went to therapy for a check up. I challenged the therapist to an "Irish" punching contest (you each get one shot at the other guys deltoid). It was his day to have tears in his eyes. Make that your goal, and you'll do fine.

Moist heat helps a lot. I did a lot of my rehab in a heated swimming pool. Only way to go.

LD

I hope all goes well for you. GOOD LUCK and don't try to push it too soon.

Sorry to hear that Mike.

My brother-in-law just had the same or simular surgury last week. His doctor said about the same thing...six months recovery, then six months of therapy. And ended with "I can't make your shoulder eighteen again, but I can make it better than it is now."

Good luck and best wishes.

mrlexma

Hurt my right shoulder running into a wall while swinging a tennis racquet. MRI confirmed a tear, but I opted for rehab first and I really worked at it. Still shooting big bores and hunting, but also taking shoulder and arm exercises with dumbbells currently.
Sounds like the docs gave you some great advice and the part about rehab exercises being important--right on, it sure helped me.

Good luck with the operation and rehab!

You will be back shooting the big bores in no time!

Dak

Let me be the first to say...dibs on your guns?



Seriously, the hardest part of any surgeon's job is getting the patient to do what they are supposed to do after surgery.

Best wishes on a speedy recovery and a future full of flinging large projectiles downrange.

I knew I would get some good advice and the benefit of a lot of experience if I posted my questions here.

I do appreciate it, and all the good will too. Many thanks.

As for selling my guns, very funny!

Before I did that, I'd do as Mark did, and start shooting from the left side.

But I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I can't even pick my nose left handed!

I partially tore my rotator cuff and completely tore the biceps tendon in my shooting shoulder in 2003. The MRI also showed that my collar bone was impacted into the same shoulder joint. When the went in, they repaired the rotator cuff, reattached the biceps tendon and cut off the last inch of my collar bone, leaving it floating.

When shooting anything bigger than a 7mm Rem, I would start to get pretty sore after a few rounds, especially when shooting off the bench. This lasted for about a year. Since then, I've been able to shoot anything up through 416 Rem without any problems. The only time I've really noticed it over the past couple of years has been after doing pigeon shoots where I'm shooting 400+ rounds of 12 gauge in the course of a few hours.

I actually had more pain in my shoulder for the first six months after the surgery than I did before, but now I'm pretty much pain free. I'm definitely glad I had the surgery.

Pete

hi gumboot here I,ve had bad whiplash and other head neck injuries I should have put a muzzel brake and fiberglass stock on my 500 A-Square. I didn,t and like a dummy got rid of it .. PUT A MUZZEL BRAKE AND A GREAT BIG GUSHY RECOIL PAD on your big bore. Also lighter weight bullets at higher velocity push less.and kill faster.

MR,
Sorry to hear of the situation. You are like a professional athlete who simply must have the best for that shoulder even if it means sitting out the season for rehab.

Look at the positive side of this. You will have time to develop 5 new techniques for small bores from shooting sticks while you are recovering.

Also, you probably ought to quit showing off by picking up VW Bugs with your right arm only. Give it a rest, for a little while, or at least consider using both arms when hoisting those VW's.

Get well soon.

Don't know how I didn't find this thread earlier, but, better late than never. I've been a physical therapist for almost 30 years and have had the pleasure of rehabbing literally 1000+ of them. If you will bear with me, a few observations. The rotator cuff is made up of 4 relatively small muscles attached to the shoulder blade: the SUPRASPINATUS ("above the spine" of the scapula), the INFRASPINATUS AND TERES MINOR, and the SUBSCAPULARIS ("under the scapula"). By far, the supraspinatus is the most often torn. It's function is to depress the head of the humerus, the long bone in your upper arm, allowing you to raise your arm over your head. The infraspinatus and teres minor rotate your arm outward and the subscapularis rotates it inward. The biceps tendon is not a rotator cuff muscle and actually has 2 seperate parts, one attached above the shoulder joint by a relatively small tendon. In terms of shoulder function, it is not that important. There are MANY people walking around right now with completely detached biceps tendons and normal shoulder function.

Rotator cuff tears are tears in the TENDON(S), not the actual muscles themselves. Many repairs are now performed arthroscopically, which makes the rehab much less painful. Notice I didn't say "more successful". One of the most important questions as to ultimate outcome is: "What kind of tissue did you (the surgeon) find in there?" I've seen rotator cuff tendon at surgery that was as tough as a thick leather belt and other that had the tensile strength of toilet paper. People tear their cuffs generally in one of two ways: a frank, abrupt load such as a fall on an outstretched arm, or gradually, over time with an accumulation of microtears until the tendon finally lets go (attrition tears). Attrition tears tend to occur in rotator cuff tendons that ultimately have poor tensile strength. These are most commonly found in the elderly (65+ years old). Repairing toilet paper tendons is as difficult as it sounds and they may not stay together once repaired.

Rehab, whether you've had arthoscopic surgery or an open procedure, should start 2-4 weeks after surgery and YOU SHOULD NOT TRY TO LIFT YOUR ARM AWAY FROM YOUR SIDE FOR 6-8 WEEKS!!! Soft tissue healing is 6-8 weeks, minimum, no matter who you are. Your therapist will move your arm for you to prevent you from getting a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitis, stiffness) while the cuff tendons heal. During this period, you will have a fair amount of pain and won't be able to sleep comfortably in bed. Use the recliner, your pain meds as prescribed, and lots of ice on your shoulder. Typically, formal therapy will last 2-4 months, but you have to work on your strength for an entire year. Goals are (in this order) pain relief, normal function. Most patients can achieve all of the first goal and about 90% of the second goal.

In terms of what we do here, remember that the supraspinatus is most often torn, and it's function is to raise your arm over your head. Don't know about you, but I don't raise my shooting arm over my head when I shoot. So, a SUCCESSFUL rotator cuff repair should not limit your ability to shoot with that shoulder. In fact, you may have a harder time shooting after a repair of your NON-shooting shoulder because it has to support the weight of your rifle/shotgun.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have....

MKane160

....and Lawndart, ALL therapists are not sadistic......just the good ones.

;-)


MKane160

/

Best wishes for successful surgery and return-to-battery, mate. You're gonna be just fine.

ALF:

I certainly did not want to leave the impression that any of the cuff repairs are easy. I fully agree that the degree of tear, large or massive, and the AGE of the tear, have a great deal to do with the potential for a good functional outcome. That said, I have rehabbed many people with massive tears that achieved both pain relief and a functional outcome, but have treated only one patient out of 1000+ who had normal glenohumeral mechanics with a surgically confirmed (notice I did NOT say diagnosed by MRI) non-union of the supraspinatus tendon, and his function did not last. And, as you pointed out, I have had generally poor outcomes (or non-repairable surgeries) for those individuals who waited a long time for surgery. I pointed out the supraspinatus because it is the most often torn cuff tendon and is also the most important cuff muscle for normal function.

MKane160

It is in fact my supraspinatus tendon that has torn.

It has quite a nice divot in it, according to the doc. Also, he said it is "feathered," which I gather isn't good either.

Not sure what caused it. He said he will check for impingement and if needed carve off some of my collar bone.

Delightful.

I tore both rotator cuffs 10 years ago....had surgery, sewn and stapled, regained full articulation with time....then REALLY buggered the right shoulder in August '06 in Alaska...physician in Delta Jcn. said "worst dislocation/shoulder" he had ever seen, with MUCH torn connective tissue....Ortho surgeon later at home (following MRI) said damage too great to repair surgically, and I should try to do best I could, though to expect little improvement. Well, I have (with exercise) regained full articulation....can raise arm vertically and move all directions....but shoulder essentially weak...if I have arm pointed vertically....difficult to "pull" something downward....some pain and "snapping" in shoulder. No big deal. I just take it easy. Shooting .338 mag or 9.4x74R or 33 RUM no problem, although muzzle break is useful. Best wishes!!

MKane160 and ALF,

Thank you both for the excellent over-views.

I have to echo your advise on getting it fixed sooner, rather than later. I have come to view it as two separate conditions; a tear in a young athlete, or a degenerative condition in a more mature athlete. I see and refer a lot of people for the degenerative version. Lots of farmers, ranchers and construction workers who need their shoulders to work.

mrlexma,

An excellent therapy modality is to raise your arm and hold onto a woman's breast for sixty seconds (repeat for three sets of ten repetitions). Obviously you start out with a short exercise partner, and change to a different woman that is one inch taller each month. After a year you have gone from 5' to 6'. I should probably write this technique up for The New England Journal of Medicine, eh?

LD

Aw, hell, LD, there you go practicing therapy without a license..... ;-)

MKane160

Lawndart, you are a scream!