Hey I'am going in for a three level cervical fusion on friday. I've got major disk degeneration in C-7-6-5 accompanied by numbness left side redicularopathy(SP?) or whatever it's called... Mostly in the arm and hand also accomopanied by left arm atrophy and loss of funtion.

Of the three nuero guy I've consulted with, two have said that most likely my big gun shooting days are OVER!!@

One guy said as long as the fusion takes as expected and you don't get stupid I.E. limit your shooting, it'll probably be ok.

Unfortunatley none of these guys are shooters nor do thay have the foggyist idea about what it is to shoot a heavy.

My primary big gun is a 470NE. And my alternate is a .458 Lott.

I shoot alot of heavies and I shoot competitivley as well as hunt year round with a .470NE. This is kind of what gets me out of bed in the morning if you know what I mean?

Lawndart what do you think?

RIP?

Any others?

surestrike - that sucks. I hope you can proceed with things normally (in moderation at least) after the procedure. I'm no doc, but I wish you well. Good luck!!

Surestrike,

Best of luck with the procedure and the recovery.

Personally I would not risk big bores after such a procedure. Instead I would get an 11 pound .375 H&H and load it down to 2300 fps for a zero-recoil shooting experience.

I have a L4-s1 ... not the same, but can be done...

one of the 550 shooters has some back work too,,,

You can get back to it.. just not quick.. and start SMALL

best of luck.. doctors' care... vitamin C, e, iron, and salmon oil were MY home rememdy to follow up with as well as the meds

jeffe

It sounds like this is a common occurrence with us big bore shooters. Do you equate the neck injury with your shooting or was there some other incident like a car accident? I ruptured a disk from bench shooting my 505. Not nearly as bad as yours, I am keeping it under control with exercise and neck stretching. My therapist warns me about further shooting but I can’t help it. I hope your surgery goes well and you can continue to shoot. Please keep us informed.

To all,

Thanks for the support.

Dan,

I think you just said .375 Flanged doubled gun, didn't you?

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by BiggestGun:
It sounds like this is a common occurrence with us big bore shooters. Do you equate the neck injury with your shooting or was there some other incident like a car accident? I ruptured a disk from bench shooting my 505. Not nearly as bad as yours, I am keeping it under control with exercise and neck stretching. My therapist warns me about further shooting but I can’t help it. I hope your surgery goes well and you can continue to shoot. Please keep us informed.

Biggest gun,

Shooting may well have something to do with this. I just don't know. There is no defining one time injury that I can think of.

I've had ample opportunity for neck damage and the docs said this looks like it was an old injury that has finally degenerated to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I guess the final straw was function loss and atrophy in the limb.

I was a competitive rugby player for about 8 years and either played prop or lock position. Prop is affectionately known as the "neck breaker" position.

I've also spent a lot of time on horses, been thrown several times used to ride dirt bikes, used to fly aerobatics. Etc etc etc....

I'm sure that the bigbore shooting hasn't helped! I do love it and hope to be able to continue in some form in the future!

I did notice in the last several months that shooting was causing my neck to ache and several times I was feeling a sharp pain in my left shoulder after recoil. I know now what it was.

At the time I just figured it was general wusyness and sucked it up.

Good luck with the procedure, Greg. Just don't rush your recovery. Let yourself heal. Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Hey I'am going in for a three level cervical fusion on friday. I've got major disk degeneration in C-7-6-5 accompanied by numbness left side redicularopathy(SP?)

Did they speculate on the cause of the disk degeneration?

The initial cause of a ruptured or protruding disc is usually difficult to isolate. Frequently the original trauma was years earlier and the incident was so minor that no note was made of it at the time. Time and other minor traumas aggrevate the the initial injury until the disc tries to squeeze through the vertibral facet next to the nerve root, or bulges inward impinging on the cord (spinal). Hope this helps with the understanding.

As far as whether you will be able to shoot big bores again, I would consult an Orthopedic surgeon who does spine work or sports medicine or both. Orthopedic surgeons are more into traumatic injuries and their sequellae. Besides, orthopods are more likely to be into guns.


Geronimo

SureStrike,

Tough luck. Hope all goes well.

FWIW, I played Rugby for about ten years as well. Started in college and ended in old boys, played sevens along the way. Loose head prop was my natural position and where I did best. But I played eight and flanker some too. My achellies are where I really paid my price, but I lean on a bunch of pillows when I sleep to keep from twisting so I can get out of the rack in the AM.

One of Butch's doubles in 375 Flanged might be a great way to go, saving the 470 for when you really need it, ie in the field in Africa, on the big stuff.

Best,

JPK

Surestrike: All I can say is "Oh, shit!" That's because I am awaiting the report on an MRI I had lasts Tuesday because my left hand and forearm are numb and I have lost 50 percent of the strength in my left hand. My GP said some about C6 disk bulge.
I'll be watching your posts religiously. I am only shooting an itty-bitty .405 No. 1 right now, but planned to build a BP big-bore.
Needless to say, I literally feel your pain and wish you the absolute best.

Surestrike,

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. We'll be rootin' for the success of your surgery and recovery.

Hope you have to change your handle to Superstrike when you're back in shape!

I'm no doctor, but several will jump in.

I hate to hear about someone having back problems and surgery etc.

I had my back worked on in 1997, it was not from heavy recoiling rifles..........mine was from to much Sex........... , as I am quite the ladies man........lol.

On a serious note, after my back surgery, I couldnt even shoot my 300 wby off the bench for several yrs, I had to put a muzzle brake on it. It took me about 3 yrs to get back to where I could shoot off the bench with a big boomer, and I still try to limit that as much as I can.........besides, off hand, sticks is much more fun anyway and not all that hard on the back.

Gringo,

YEAH ....TO much sex is what did me in too. Do you think twice a month is to much?

Hmmm. don't tell my wife she'll knock it down even further.

What part of your back did you get fused?

Bill,

Mine started out with this weird pain in my left lat shoulder and down my left arm into my index finger. Then the left hand went numb. I went in got the MRI and was sent to a neuro surgeon. They gave me a staged dexamethazone shot into my C-7 C-6 nerve roots. That helped for about 10 days with the pain. The numbness never went away.

Then the pain started to come back and I noticed that I was getting weaker in my left hand. After about 10 day of that I noticed that my left triceps was shrinking up. They neuro guys told me that when you start losing strength and function it's time to cut.

I measured my right arm and it was normal around the bicep triceps area. My left arm has shrunken 2 inches. I think that's pretty darn significant considering that 6 weeks ago I was working out 4 to 5 days a week.

Good luck I'll keep posting when I can about what this was like.

P.S.

When they give you your dex shots in the nerve root. Thye go in from the front of your neck with a small harpoon that sticks all the way through your neck and into the front of your spine.It really doesn't hurt at all but it looks pretty impresive!

Surestrike
Sounds like slow and easy is going to be the rule for awhile. A great pal had similar surgury and had to stick with a 270 for about a year. DON'T do what I did many years ago! I had shoulder surgury on my right shoulder and three weeks later my 577 double arrived. HAD to shoot it so a buddy and I trotted off to the range and I shot it left handed (right arm was in a sling) with him holding the barrels on his shoulder, sort of a beer drinking bench rest. Took about three shots for us to realize that for my part it still hurt like hell and he didn't like being smacked in the head when it recoiled. Took about a week for the pain to suside to the previous level. Good luck and a speedy recovery.

surestrike,
It is definitely time to do something about that. I have evaluated and referred several patients with similar situations and most have done very well. It seems to me that the titanium plates with three screws on each side do the best. Most who get that say it was the best thing they ever did.

I don't pretend to know much about it, and the literature is not replete in the subject, but you ought to be able to rehab yourself into doing most of your shooting with a .375 Flanged double and the .470 NE as needed. You will soon have a bionic neck. Only you will be able to tell what you can handle, and what risks you will take, just go slow and get strong again, and at least consider the more normal smaller bores now and then.

Hey Surestrike,
Sorry I didn't jump on this earlier, but I was off yesterday scheduling my next L5 microdiscectomy. I don't mind the dragging leg, but I hate it when my left nut hurts!

The "jack 'n stack" procedure is where they stuff bone powder in between the vertebrae and use the titanium plates and screws as a splint to hold things in place until the whole assembly fuses. The procedure is very well tolerated, and usually works much better than the lower back procedures.

My girlfriend Lois had this done two years ago last week. We started her on 22 Magnum rifle shooting at six months, 9mm pistols at eight months, and worked up slowly. She is shooting a 30-06 without difficulty now.

I believe you will be able to work up to a .375 H&H; 450/400; 404 Jeffery class without much trouble at all.

If you learn to roll with a rifle like smaller folks do, the 470 might be within reach.

My guess is that prior injuries are the main culprit. The big bore shooting likely irritated, but did not cause the trouble.

A big problem for big strong guys is that they often don't learn to roll with a rifle, and thus suck up more shock. I had a five foot tall girlfriend at one time who would move back two feet every time she shot the 375 H&H. At the end of the day though, she was never bruised or sore.

If I were in a similar situation I would opt for the tianium jack 'n stack in a nano-second.

lawndart

Not to be negative, but the problems you describe are more likely related to: in order of probability
1. weight
2. age
3.fitness
4.what you shoot.

Can't change 2. and 4. so go figure

quote:

Originally posted by 10at6:
Not to be negative, but the problems you describe are more likely related to: in order of probability
1. weight
2. age
3.fitness
4.what you shoot.

Can't change 2. and 4. so go figure

Are you saying he has a fat head supported on that neck? BS!
I think you are just being a smartass afterall.

Surestrike, Best of luck guy and take it slow. Jeffe may have been talking about me but my Neck
was not near as bad as what you are doing. DO WHAT THEY SAY. I did put sticky notes as reminders that a gallon of milk weighs 8+ lbs.
It is almost drive you nuts, BUT DO IT. You will be glad if you do.
Take Care
Gene

RIP,

Lawndart,

Thanks for the input guys. I am having a serious case of presurgery jitters right now.

Something about always being in command that really screws with your head when you are placed in situation like this, being a helpless blob of protein on a platter. My best guess anyway!

Not only that but I hear from nurses how hard it is to catheterize guys with small dicks. I can only hope that I make the cut on the well respected and rare easy to catheterize list.

Here is some cool news I am having a .404 Jeff built right now as we speak. And Butch Searcy called this morning after reading this thread. he wanted to let me know that he'll be glad to build me a .375 Flanged if need be and will make me a sweet trade deal if needed.

There really are some great guys in this world.

Thanks again guys you've really helped to settle me down.

Sincerely

Greg

Surestrike,

Have you considered renting your .470 to an AR member for the duration of your recovery so that it will not get lonely?

500,

It is actually living at Butches house right now. I traded my old field grade for a new PH model last month.

Greg

I think instead he will get those 22 Savage Hi-Power sub-caliber inserts and go shoot cats in upscale neighborhoods for his rehab.

LD

Good luck with the surgery and I hope you have a speedy recovery.

I have had 15 operations, 2 of wich were on my spine. I now have C5-6-7 fused with 3 plates and 10 screws. Other disks are herniated, but I am riding them out. Last operation was on 11-29-04. The first week of Novemebr I shot a .270 4times one day and once the next day. it alsmost killed me, but at least I was out there shooting at game. There is no way to know if you can shoot big guns again. All you can do is wait and see

My dr. works on th elocal NFL team and he would release me to play in the NFL with these fusions. The fact that I am 5' 10" / 145# keeps me from trying out, but I could at elast get a note from the doctor if I wanted to try!

I have been cleared to resume bungee jumping, start skydiving, etc, but they all recommended that I not get on any more bulls. I have slowed WAAAAAAAY down in the past few years, as I have a lot of nerve damage in both arms. Willl likely hunt with a .243 next year, but I will be out there, I promis you that much.

Surestrike,

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.
I am a Neurosurgeon, and do a lot of fusions like you are having.

A 3 level fusion isn't all that uncommon (a single level diskectomy and fusion at C5-6 is the most common), but usually means that a patient has a lot of degenerative changes.

Some of this is from prior (long term) trauma, some from simple aging, and some is due to a rate of degenerative change that we inherit.

Your shooting days are NOT over.
But, if it were my neck, I would wait a full 12 weeks before I shot anything more powerful than a 243.
From 3 months post-op to 6 months post-op I wouldn't shoot anything more powerful than a 30-06.
After 6 months your fusion should be mature enough to allow you to shoot your big bores again.
By 18 to 24 months the fusion is as well formed as it will ever be.

No one has ever measured the direct forces on the cervical spine when shooting large bore rifles.
The amount of discomfort you will or won't feel will be a good guide.

Garrett

quote:

No one has ever measured the direct forces on the cervical spine when shooting large bore rifles.
The amount of discomfort you will or won't feel will be a good guide.

Garrett

Do you think we could get a study published in Neurosurgery-Spine? I'm pretty sure funding is out of the question.

lawndart

PS We just have to get RIP to let us implant some transducers.

.

Surestrike:
Hope your procedure went well, and that you are up to posting before too long. Lots of great replies here, and your catheter comments really cracked me up.
My MRI results show a modestly bulged disk at C6, and I will see a neurologist next week as to what is next. I'm not sure where this came from, as I cannot claim the romance of having played rugby. I am 52, 5' 10" and 168 pounds, and have some lumbar degeneration, so perhaps it is just in my genes. I work in a newsroom on a computer 8 hours a day, damn the luck.
To get my big-bore fix without snapping my neck and shoulder, I will switch to muzzleloaders and BP cartridge guns. BP really does push, or so it seems to me.
Anyway, have you in my thoughts and wish the best for you.

Not an expert, but have my ideas.

If I'm not mistaken, the move to 28 gr. loads in International trap was triggered by the number of competitive European shooters who developed cervical problems.

My brother in law is an avid trapshooter who shoots mostly in unregistered "money" shoots. Those guys are famous for their heavy loads. Last year, he had the same operation as you. After six months of rehab, he was in fine shape. Started shooting again, went back to his old loads and now is looking at further surgery.

I have no idea if his shooting is related to his problems, but I would strongly suspect that, if a person is predisposed, the shooting is a heavy negative impact.

In life, you have to play the cards you are dealt. I personally would walk away. I love shooting of all kinds. I don't think I would personally persue any one branch with the possibility of injuring my health permanently.

hope every thing went ok. been dealing with constent back pain for 20 years, so i feel for you. you'll know what you can and can not do. if it hurts don't do it. but then again if it doesn't kill you it'll only make you stronger
best of luck and a speedy recovery

Just a quick update,

I am on MAJOR pain killers so please excuse the spelling and grammar.

The surgery took about 5 hours I had some complications and spent 3 days in ICU then 2 days in recovery and just got home.

I had some major post op nerve swelling and woke up with SERIOUS pain and my left hand along with my arm and my left hand being numb and my left hand partially was paralyzed.

When I woke we tried phentanol (SP) delotid (SP) and morphine to try and curb the pain. Morphine didn't even take the edge off the pain, that SUCKED. At first they thought it was blood clots. But after a post op MRI decided it was just massive swelling compromising the nerves.

Oh and just by the way if you've ever had to go into an MRI 30 minutes post op in the worst back and arm pain imaginable and lay on your back perfectly still for 25 minutes. You haven't truly lived. That was special with a capitol S.

So my doc decided to put me on a large steroid dose to try and reduce the swelling.

That's when we found out that I react very poorly to steroids. I went into Major league tachycardia and my blood pressure went sky rocketing into the strokosphere.

I spent the next 3 days in ICU on a morphine pump for the pain with various cardiologists internists and nuero surgeons getting me stabilized. Day three I turned the corner and started to respond to the various drug therapy

The heart is stabile and I am controlling the hypertension and tachycardia with drugs. Hopefully that will not be needed much longer.

The nerve pain is cooling down with the help of Nuerountin (SP?) and some powerful pain killers. At times it is still nearly unbearable even with the pain killers but is getting better every day

The strength in my left hand is back to 4 out of 5 and the fine motor function is back to about 60%

Today is the first day I feel like I'm making good strides towards a full recovery.

I'd also like to say that I felt as though I received the highest standard of care from my medical team and wish to thank each and every one of them. THEY were great!


My surgeon says in three months I should be able to shoot again. Even that “ big†gun I showed him ,If I do my PT and work into it SLOWLY!!
So things could have been A LOT worse. Overall I’m a happy guy.

PS

Have you ever tried to type with a nu8mbn and partially paralyzed left hand. IT AIN’T EASY!!!

Writing this has flat worn me out and I'm going to rest now.

Once again thanks for all your support.

Greg

Damn Greg, what an ordeal. Here's wishing you a speedy recovery, and a big-bore in your shoulder in no time! Take care.

Best wishes for continued recovery. I'm glad the doctors finally sorted out the problems, but I am sorry you had to endure all of that.

Superstrike,

Sorry to hear that you had some "challenges" during and following the procedure.

Very glad to hear things may be improving a bit and that there is hope at the end of all this.

We wish you as speedy a recovery as possible with as much comfort as can be hoped for!

Surestrike,

Hope you get better soon.
Send me a PM or email if I can help.

Garrett

Wow, Greg.

Sorry to hear that things didn't go as planned. Your steroid reaction was way worse than my hives in reaction to the CAT scan trace dye.

Glad you are on the mend and pain is subsiding. I'll have more stuff to ask about when I see my neurologist about my C-6 disk next Friday.

Greg,

Welcome back! Now that you are on the mend, I am sure things will start looking better very soon.