I think I've found an acceptable cast bullet load for my CZ 416 Rigby. It consists of 112 grains of AA8700, the BULL SHOP .417" diameter 350-grain flatnose gascheck bullet with a Brinell hardness of 22, what appears to be NRA-type ALOX lube, with Federal 215 primers in Jamison cases. MV was 2100 fps average. Tried 100 graions too. This 100-grain load gave 1950 FPS, was less accurate, and gave some hangfires. No hangfires with 112 grains, though!

Thats great info thanks for posting. This load will probably be one of my first with my new CZ.

When you say hangfire are we talking...firing pin strike...1/4 second...then ignition or firing pin strike.....3-5seconds...then ignition. Even 100 grains should have filled the case up full enough to dismiss powder position right? or is 8700 so slow and therefore difficult to ignite?

Have you played with XMP5744? Or a different size say 0.418?

quote:

Originally posted by ptaylor:
Thats great info thanks for posting. This load will probably be one of my first with my new CZ.

When you say hangfire are we talking...firing pin strike...1/4 second...then ignition or firing pin strike.....3-5seconds...then ignition. Even 100 grains should have filled the case up full enough to dismiss powder position right? or is 8700 so slow and therefore difficult to ignite?

Have you played with XMP5744? Or a different size say 0.418?

No. Firing pin strike, then ignition, but noticeablty late. Not late enough for the gun to have moved off target-not like a flintlock, but definmitely slower than the last shot.

No, I have NOT used any faster powderswith cast bullets in the 416. For cast bullet loads, I favor slow powders for two reasons: A. You get better loading density, hence more uniform ignition and burning. I particularly avoid those miniscule charges that Lyman recommends! B. Slower acceleration of the bullet tends to deform them less than the swift (relatively speaking) kick in the butt that happens with fast powders.

Nor have I tried bigger bullets. A .418" MIGHT be better, but I am not sure I can ever shoot this beast much better than the above group shows, regardless of what the load is. In addition, it only has a 3X scope on it, and my eyes are getting old!!

I've been loading the RCBS 416-350 gas-checked bullet in my #1 .416 Rigby for over ten years, and total round consumption is now well into the thousands.

In my wheelweight alloy, the bullet weighs 365 grains with an extreme weight spread of less than one grain in most casting sessions.

I've run this bullet at over 2600 fps without problems, and good accuracy can be had at pretty near any speed I've driven it (from about 1100 fps to the previously-mentioned 2600+).

My chosen powder for the big loads is IMR 4831, and for lighter loads I mostly use 5744. 55.0 grains of 5744 with a loose dacron tuft over the charge gives me 2100 fps with extreme velocity spreads of less than ten fps, and one-inch 3-shot groups at 100 yards. At 40.0 grains of 5744, with dacron, the velocity will be about 1800 fps in my rifle. The 2100-fps load was my hunting load last year, with a cast softpoint, but unfortunately I didn't have a chance to test it on game (elk).

I even tried a few groups last summer with pure-lead bullets at 2000 fps with an eye to hunting, but even though the rounds did not "lead" the barrel, the accuracy wasn't quite as good as the WW bullets, so I created some cast softpoints in this design.

I've used a fair number of different powders in the Rigby, but I keep coming back to the two mentioned. 4198 is very useable for moderate loads, but my rifle likes 5744 better. Loads in the 2000-2200 fps area are very potent, but still quite comfortable to shoot. 55.0/5744 is NOT a maximum load in my #1.

Have fun!

I use IMR4895 for jacketed and mono bullets in my 416 Rem.

I use cheap surplus IMR4895 for my cast lead practice bullets. I've used the RCBS 416-350 GC (370 w/ww alloy, lube and GC) in the past with 72 grains IMR4895 yielding right at 2350 fps. I never got a group like you show above - most three shot groups ran near two inches at 100 yards with ten-shot groups nearing twice that.

I have to load these pretty deep into the case - GC into the case - so I ordered (and just yesterday received) a custom mold with a tight bore-riding section that lets me load it with the GC at the base of the neck. I hope to get better groups with this bullet as the bore-riding section is about a .0015 interference fit on the lands with the groove diameter section touching the lands. The bullets weigh 388 gr w/GC and w/o lube (wheel weight alloy).

My chrono is off for repair, so it'll be at least a week before I get back to the range to try them - but I may not try them.

I ruined the last barrel on my 416. Pitted it using aggressive copper removers. I have never had this happen before and was wondering if it was due to having shot both copper and lead bullet in it. I don't know much chemistry but I know that copper and lead can create a galvanic reaction in an ionic solution.

How do you clean your barrels? Do you shoot only cast bullets or switch back and forth?

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
I've been loading the RCBS 416-350 gas-checked bullet in my #1 .416 Rigby for over ten years, and total round consumption is now well into the thousands.

In my wheelweight alloy, the bullet weighs 365 grains with an extreme weight spread of less than one grain in most casting sessions.

I've run this bullet at over 2600 fps without problems, and good accuracy can be had at pretty near any speed I've driven it (from about 1100 fps to the previously-mentioned 2600+).
Have fun!

Wow! Bruce & Don!! Thanks to both of you for the information!

I have looked at that RCBS mould, and it appears that the bullets I bought from BULL SHOP may be from that mould. In addition to target shooting, I may try to use a cast load in this rifle for deer and elk hunting.

Are you saying that even cast from wheelweights, you were able to get over 2600 FPS with acceptable accuracy and no leading? (I would have thought wheelweight metal would be too soft, unless heat-treated.) If so, what do you lube them with???

I have a Ruger No. 1B in .30/'06 and a Ruger No. 1 .416 Rigby barrel. I bought this rifle with the idea of rebarreling it to 416 Rigby, but am running some tests now to see how well it shoots as an '06. If it is acceptable, I may not change it. Yet, I believe I'd have a lot more fun with it as a 416 Rigby......

Don, sorry to hear about your barrel. I shoot both cast and jacketed bullets in the same rifles. I have always tried to clean all the jacketed-bullet fouling out of a bore before shooting cast bullets in it, because "I've heard" that the fouling from jacketed slugs will cause cast bullets to shoot poorly. But I am not sure of this.

I've never had any problems switching back to jacketed loads after shooting a bunch of lead bullets, and have a No. 1 .45/70 that I shoot both in all the time. For years, I cleaned with Hoppe's No. 9. Then, I grew up and switched to Shooters' Choice. I just bought a bottle of Butch's Bore Shine. I don't know how aggressive it is, but will dry-patch my bore today to be sure it's all out, since I cleaned it yesterday after shooting the cast loads in it.

I never tried for more than 2500 fps. I got my first "visible leading" at 2525 or so, and just stayed down around and below 2400 fps after that. Mainly what I was after was offhand practice bullets with a realistic Kick - and 370 gr at 2350 fps seemed realistic.

I do not remember when I started quenching my ww bullets - the leading at 2525 may have been with soft, unquenched bullets.

Edit to add: I used Red Rooster lube last time - Veral was indisposed. I'm going to use LBT soft this time.

The pitting in the barrel may vary a lot with the detailed chemistry of the barrel alloy. I was told that the elements added for free-machining and toughness can cause the islands where the pits start.

If you want some of the new 390 grain "bore-riding" LFN GC bullets to try, just send me a PM.

i use br22+ hardcasts in the 500 jeffe and 550 express.. i get sever leading at 2250+ .. the 500s are gas checked, btw.

generally heavier bullets are slower speeds are how I run cast bigbores

jeffe

Interesting topic, this!

The vast majority of my .416 shooting is done with the RCBS bullets which are water-quenched straight from the mould. Without a hardness tester, I dunno what the precise Brinnell number would be, but they're a good bit harder than air-cooled wheelweight bullets. I try to use 'em up before much age-softening takes place, which generally seems to see them loaded and fired within six months or so.

I only ran the speed up to 2600 fps "to see what would happen", and of course, what happened was a LOT of fuss, commotion and recoil....too much of it for real enjoyment. 1800-2100 fps is much more enjoyable, and as we've stated, very effective for most uses.

My bullets barely make .4165" as-cast, and my .417" sizing die really only lubes the bullets. I'm using the NRA 50-50 lube, and even at 2600, ten rounds gave no visible leading. The 2 five-round groups were around the two-inch mark, but firing the last few rounds from the benchrest was a test of my nerves, I assure you.

I have had occasional troubles in switching from jacketed loads to cast if the barrel isn't cleaned rigorously. Hence I find myself very reluctant to fire jacketed bullets once the bore is "conditioned" for cast bullets. My cleaner of late has been Sweet's, and it removes copper quite nicely.

I have a new M1A and a nice Garand, and have done a lot of switching between the two types, cast and jacketed. It can be a trial!

A project I did last summer involved casting two-alloy softpoints for hunting with the .416, and I had considerable success. To read about it, go to

www.castboolits.gunloads.com

and search for "softpoints". The thread is titled something like "Successful Casting of Softpoints from Conventional Moulds" (or something like that).

I really like the .416 Rigby. Although it was acquired for a serious hunting role on Wood Bison in the NWT, I now find it to be a highly-enjoyable cast-bullet rifle, especially when loaded moderately as Jeffeosso remarked. The brass is pricey, but I have yet to lose a case from multiple loadings. I have around 120 cases at hand, and they'll likely last the life of the barrel, at the current loss rate (zero)!

Bruce: Good to see you posting here again. I can vouch for the quality of Bruce's RCBS cast, gas-checked bullets because he sent me a bunch several years back to try in my Ruger No. 1 in .416 Rigby. I used Norma brass, 52 grains of XMP5744 and no dacron. The load chronographed right at 2000 fps out of the Ruger, and with a Weaver K2.5 on it gave consistent five-shot groups of about 1.25 inches at 100 yards. Very pleasant to shoot, too.
Miss that Rigby.

I believe water-quenched WW bullets right out of the mould will run at least Brinell 20 or more, basically depending on how hot they were when they came out of the mould and how long it took them to reach the water. So I can see how they were able to stand up to 2500-2600 FPS w/o leading!

I noted you made up some "two alloy" bullets. For expansion? I once made some "two-hardness" 477122 HP, WW, 342-grain bullets for my Ruger No. 1 .45/70 by heating them for two hours in the oven to just below the melting point, sitting on their bases in a shallow jar lid. After heating, I poured cold water into the lid up to the top grease groove to harden the bases. The idea was that the nose section would hopefully remain soft. It did! But the bases were about 25 Brinell. And I was able to drive these bullets to 2350 FPS with 63 grains of RE 7 with good accuracy and no leading. (LBT Blue lube)

Since these are plain-base bullets, I loaded them with a Hornady .458 gascheck placed inverted on top of the powder before seating the bullet.

I'm using the 350 G.RCBS + also as stated by BrenMk1 I use 55.G 5744.Have tryed it with + without Dacron fil,+ can't seem to tell much difference.One point of interest though is that load is within 1" POI as my other load of 88.0G 4350 W/400 G. Hornady Interlok.So makes it cheaper to shoot with no sight alt.Works W/ #1 + M-77.Lube used was LBT blue (bought several sticks a while ago) although I've had decent results W/Lyman moly.

Just for the sake of reference, I had my .404 out for some air today.

I was using the LEE 44-310 pistol bullet in air-cooled wheelweight alloy, sized at .424" and loaded over 37 grains of XMP 5744 with a tuft of dacron. The bullet weighs 322 grains as-cast. This is a nice, light plinking load, leaving at 1680 fps, and the extreme spread was only 22 fps on a 20-round sample.

The rifle had to be re-zeroed, because the previous load used was 400-grain X-bullets at 2130 fps. It managed a five-shot group of 1.6" at 100 yards, with a Weaver K1.5/post reticle...not exactly target-shooting gear!

Perhaps this may be useful to .404 owners.