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2.5 inch case on Jeff Brass. Howell might feed better. Any one have any ballistics? Real experience on DG. Looking for CRF action suggestions? Next rifle down is a 338-06AI. Trying to talk mamma bear into a 08-09 trip to Africa. Not a hugh fan of recoil or breaks. I would like to make the rifle as light as possible to do a mec tube in the forearm and stock and keep the whole deal under 11lbs scope slung and loaded.
 
Posts: 416 | Registered: 21 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Or the 416 AR, which I talked with Ken Howell about AFTER i designed it

rum brass, which is cheap cheap

this one will hit, with a 26" tube, over 2480 with 400 gr hornadies

the 458 will do 2350+ 21" barrel, hornady 500rn

the 470 will do the same with 500gr woodlieghs


think 9.5 loaded with a 416, add 3/4 for the 458 or 470.

my 550 express barely weighs 11



opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40595 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
my 550 express barely weighs 11


Yes that is true, sofabut you are very twisted jeffe. lol

(For those who do not know, the 550 Exp. = 577NE in power)

Hog Killer


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club
 
Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueprinted:
2.5 inch case on Jeff Brass. Howell might feed better. Any one have any ballistics? Real experience on DG. Looking for CRF action suggestions? Next rifle down is a 338-06AI. Trying to talk mamma bear into a 08-09 trip to Africa. Not a hugh fan of recoil or breaks. I would like to make the rifle as light as possible to do a mec tube in the forearm and stock and keep the whole deal under 11lbs scope slung and loaded.



The Dakota is .375H&H length, so in a 2,5" cartridge the Howell or the AR is the way to go.
Or, the new .404 Dakota, a .416 Howell necked up to .423.


Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway

 
Posts: 1707 | Location: Norway | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With Quote
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I have a 416/404 on a shortened Jeffrey case. It is similar to the Howell case. As you may have noted in earlier post, I am having my problems with this rifle and loads for it. I suspect that the culprit is an over sized chamber and undersized dies.

However, the rifle is a joy. It weighs about 9.5 pounds; has express sights; barrel mounted slign swivel; and is quite accurate. The barrel is just shy of 22", and it is a very handy piece. I have pushed 400grain bullets as fast as 2400fps from it; however, my recoil limit with this rifle is about 2300fps. It it kicks so bad I have to gather myself to work the bolt, it kicks too hard!

If I wanted a 416, I'd go with the Remington 416. I think that it will be with us for a long time. If I wanted a 404J based cartridge, I'd use the 404J itself. It was designed to work in a Mauser standard length action. 423 bullets are readily available. Going with the 416/404 solves a problem that does not exist. I know. Kudude
 
Posts: 1473 | Location: Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by kudude: If I wanted a 404J based cartridge, I'd use the 404J itself. It was designed to work in a Mauser standard length action.


Sir,
That is not correct. A M98 has to be altered a lot befor a .404Jeffery will feed through it, most notably by lengthening the magazine. It will work, but to say the .404 was made to work in a standard M98 is plain wrong.


Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway

 
Posts: 1707 | Location: Norway | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Bent, Kudude,
I understand where both of you are coming from. If ya'll don't mind, i'll mediate.

Bent,
you are correct, it requires lots of mods, mostly to the mab box, but the 404 CAN work in a standard length ACTION, but then again, so can a 416 remington

kudude,
the 404 can be MADE to work in an m98, not requiring a special length action. However, there is zero real difference in making a 404 work vs a 416 rem or 458 lott, as the same mods, just slightly different cuts, have to be done.

the 10,75x68 is SUPPOSED to basically fall into a standard 98, open the boltface, which is the trivial mods .423 bullet for mausers.

From a time/money presective, the two most expensive things you can do to a standard mauser action are
#2, make the mag box longer
#1 add a single (or even 2) additional round(s)

which is why the ARs are standard length rounds, not magnum length

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40595 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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I was misinformed (not the first time and hardly the last), but the point is if you are going to modify the rifle to take a cartridge of the 404 or 416 length, then don't do a 423 on a 416 Rem or a 416 on a 404. Build for a pure cartridge, 416 Rem or 404 J. As much as I like my rifle, there are days when I'd have it rebored to 423 and make an honest woman out of her! Kudude
 
Posts: 1473 | Location: Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I think it's the 425 Westley Richards that was designed to "drop in" to a standard length mauser action. This round has a rebated .473" rim size on a .543" case body so the bolt doesn't need to be opened up to fit, but is such a pain to get to feed correctly (if a gunsmith can achieve this at all) that it didn't become very popular.
 
Posts: 421 | Location: Broomfield, CO, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002Reply With Quote
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CM,
it doesn't drop in, it requires nearly the same amount of gunsmithing that a 416 taylor does, except you don't have to open teh bolt face..

with the downside being you'll spend cubic dollars getting it to feed right

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40595 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
quote:
Originally posted by kudude: If I wanted a 404J based cartridge, I'd use the 404J itself. It was designed to work in a Mauser standard length action.


Sir,
That is not correct. A M98 has to be altered a lot befor a .404Jeffery will feed through it, most notably by lengthening the magazine. It will work, but to say the .404 was made to work in a standard M98 is plain wrong.



Bent- What action, pray tell, was the .404 Jeffery designed to fit, then?

The Mauser magnum action? Maybe, but maybe not.

I have owned three different .404's built by Jeffery not too long after the cartridge came out, and all were built on standard length Mauser actions. True, they did require all the mods everyone has mentioned here, but none of mine were built on Magnum actions. Later in life I had some Belgian-made mauser-style actions (Brevex) of which mine were made especially bolt-faced, feed-railed, and magazined for the .404 Jeffery... (Traded one of them to the late Neal Knox for an Oehler chronograph), but that is an entirely different fish in a different sea.

Not trying to be contentious, but you are so staight-forward with your information, I wonder if you have some info on them that I do not. Would appreciate knowing the source of your information and any advice you can give as to which action the cartridge WAS designed for.

TIA,

AC


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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AC,
it's a semantics question..

the 404 can fit in a modified standard 98.

I believe Bent read "standard" as being "unmodified"

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40595 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Jeffe-

To some extent I agree... I just honestly doubt that the .404 was intended for ANY particular action per se. As I understand it, the .404 Jeffery was intended to replace the .450/.400 rimmed cartridges (both 3" & 3-1/4") in whatever magazine-rifle actions were available to the trade at the instant(s) of building....and to pretty much fit (with work) into whatever was saleable & available to be used.

When it was the magnum Mauser, of course that was the easier route. When it was standard length Mausers, that was okay too.

What many tend to forget these days is that even the biggest English & Scots bespoken rifle builders did not have completely standard models, akin to say the Winchester Model 70, or the Remington Model 700.

They were all somewhat more like ordering a rifle today from David Miller. They used the actions available (magazine actions mainly from mainland Europe, singles and doubles mainly from SE England and mainland Europe) and built what the customer(s) ordered. So, to a large extent, they were all "one-offs".

For instance, of the probably two-three dozen Fraser's once in my collection at the same time, no two were exactly alike, though a fair number were of the same chamberings.

It is also true that they pretty much all did build rifles which were NOT bespoken, too, to keep their skilled workers & apprentices working...and those tended to be more standardized in specifications...but still weren't all identical. And, of course, they weren't all retailed through the big name makers' shops, either. Some were sold through suppliers who maintained outlets in Calcutta, Nairobi, etc., while others were sold through organizations such as the Army & Navy Cooperative Society, Ltd., the latter primarily for the benefit of the British Officers in the various services. Those varied to a degree according to what the retailers felt they could sell, as well as to what the makers had surplus.

So, I suspect any debate about for which action(s) certain cartridges were intended can be pretty well an exercise in ambiguity. Most (though not all) were intended for a purpose, rather than a certain action, and could be had just about however one wanted, if he had the Guineas. Just like today......


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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I don't know the source, but somewhere I read that back in the day, another English company had the exclusive rights in England to the Mauser Magnum actions. Jeffrey wanted to compete in the important big game market, and, voila, 404J which will fit a standard action. Necessity is the mother of all invention.

But that don't change a thing about the primary questions: 416 Howell or 416 Dakota. Kudude
 
Posts: 1473 | Location: Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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